Quake3World

The Idea of using decals for the floor markers had been an option. The issue is, I cant remember How to make a brush a decal.
I used decals quite extensively in my map for the Maverick Servers Comp a couple of years back but those where conveniently
provided by Soc with the corresponding shaders. I have had no luck finding tutorials.

It's in the Q3Map2 Shader Manual

Thanks Obsidian for the info .
Changes are as follows-
- Made weapon/armor markers decals.
- Added some additional lighting in PG and RG areas.
- Made an elevated area in the GL area and angled the opening
in the floor downward.
-Relocated some bot clip brushes that I missed when I reworked
some areas of the map .
- Weapon clipped the windows
- Clipped off the map as needed to smooth out doors/walls.
- Created a Caulk Hull to help with Vis. Ran the map with r_showtris 1
and its not rendering the entire map anymore.
I can see you all shaking your heads when I tell you how I did it.
Being my entire map was detail ,with the exception of a caulk box I placed around it
to BSP the map, I decided it would be easier if I just removed from view everything but
the brushes, delete the exterior box then select the entire map, clone it and apply the
Caulk texture to it, Made them structural, deselect ,then I went around and deleted all
the superfluous brushes (removed detail brushes from view). Ya I know but it kept me
from getting frustrated trying to draw brushes inside of brushes.

See Latest post for new pk3.

Some thoughts:

• The decals under the weapons work nicely. There are still brush weapon pads under the LG and the SG on the upper floor cutting up the glass. I am not really sure what to do here. But IIRC a normal decal should work here as well, since decals can be seen from both sides? Or was that a special option Obsidian?
• The Quad adds a nice extra level of whimsy to the map. Though the combo of Haste and Quad could be borderline maniacal. The location of the Quad is actually quite clever, but you might want to add some botclip (invisible steps) to help the bots reach the Quad, since presently they completely ignore it. I still think it might be a good idea to try alternating spawns of the Quad/Haste to only have one of either in the map at any given time.
• I also hope you will still have the time/nerve to cut up the ceilings some more. Especially the ceiling above the GL could use more sky IMO.
• I would also love to see a few more windows, they would not use up many brushes, add lights, plus reduce the canned-in feeling in several parts of the map. E.g.:
  • Small window on outer wall leading up to the TP/RL.
  • At RL, to the right of the TP, on the level of the health, again into outer wall.
  • Near the GL, on the outer wall behind the hole in the floor... just take out one lit metal panel in the wall and replace it with glass/skybox.
• Even though this does mess into vis the now flattened floor area of the RA might be a nice place to add glass in the floor, to be able to see what is going on down at the RG.
• Noted your vis efforts, i.e. the caulk hull. When standing at the GL you can see the complete central area with the JP/Quad, this should be invisible. If you are interested I could take some screenshots and suggest a few hint brushes?
• The blue glass wall ornament near the LG seems to need some player clip, you can jump on the edge from the side.

Hope that helps. Map is definitely getting there.

When you had suggested earlier about a glass floor in the passage where the RA is I had tried it but I was getting some seriously bad HOM from certain
angles looking down into the RG area and from below looking up I was getting disappearing brushes from certain angles. I spent hours messing with
that area trying to figure out why it was happening. I know that protruding caulk brushes can cause that but there wasn't any and it had me stumped
so I just made the floor solid again. Same reason is why I moved the glass windows from above the SG area because when looking up through the glass
floor the entire window had the HOM effect. I would still like to put glass in those areas. I'll try it again and see if I can get it to work.
I noticed yesterday that the bots weren't going for the quad which I thought was odd. I put the quad there because I seen the bots use the trim on that
partition to cut that corner and I left that trim unclipped just for that purpose. Matter of fact I left most of the trim unclipped so it could be used for jumping
if one was inclined to do so.
Me and Hint brushes just don't work well. I understand how they work and where to put them in curtain situations but for the most part I haven't had much
success using them in my maps. I would be most appreciative if you would drop a few hints on where to put some hint brushes.

About HOM: indeed caulk may be the reason. Another reason are duplicate brushes (same size at exact same location), that sometimes messes up the renderer, letting you look e.g. out of the map. That may have been the case with the RA glass floor. To spot such duplicate brushes, drag-select (paint select, Ctrl+Shift+LMB-grab IIRC) over the brushes in question. These normally turn light red, should another brush be in the exact same spot the selection would turn a darker red.

Overall the issues with HOM are really frustrating, and saddening.

Alas HOM errors also hint at actual source code errors, that may at times show and then suddenly be gone again, just by adding or removing pretty much unrelated geometry in the map. Under Plugins menu - Bobtoolz - Brush Cleanup some such errors can be fixed. This might also help.

Hint brushes are pretty much trial and error, so remote hinting often will not work very well. But I will give it a try tomorrow. This is by far not a real issue any longer, since we all have such fast hardware.

Here is the latest installment. There are a few changes. I think your
just gunna have to DL it to see them.
As for the fixes that aren't outright noticeable,
- I added some weapon clips to the glass wall ornaments.
-Made some small botclip steps for the Quad. I was thinking
that maniacal could be fun so I'll leave both Haste and Quad
in the map.
-Added some extra lighting in a few places.
Edit - new pk3 in latest post

Some thoughts...

• Glad I did not try to suggest and hint brushes because the issue around the GL no longer is a problem, and the rest of the map looks seems to be only drawing what it should. Extensive hinting might reduce it more, but I would actually advise against that.
• I live the design of the window up the stairs from the YA to RA.
• Also like the windows behind the GL hole in the upper floor.
• The ceiling in the GL room is now brutally open... but it's an interesting alternate way of adding sky, so fine.
• Near the YA and at the Haste-TP you added holes in the floor. I'd drop those again. Looking straight down into a skybox almost always looks bad. IIRC there where a few folks that pulled that off well using fog... but my motto would be "you don't need that kind of trouble". I also found them confusing.
• I know, I am the glass guy ... a window on the outer wall of the PG room, not too large might still be nice to have.
• In general... you have several very very large window areas, that look a bit boring. Some brush-based (8x8u²) metal bars in different patterns might break up the large glass areas and make them more interesting. You did something like that for the window up the stairs near the YA. Especially the GL ceiling could use such grating, and also the RG window, and even the Haste window.
• Lighting has very much improved. Everything is a lot brighter now... a good thing IMO.
• It has been "bugging" me from the very first version of the map, but to me the central JP (under the Quad) simply looks a bit flimsy, i.e. small. IMO, it should be about 20% larger... if the texture on it is already unstretched (the normal .5 in x and .5 in y) then forget my comment.
• If you like you could add some decorative boxes and tubing outside of the windows just to give them a bit more depth outside of the playable map areas.

All this is small stuff, IMO, you map is pretty much done... maybe some tweaking of the sorts, to add a botclip hull (i.e. simplify the map for the bots even more than for players... and edges players might "want" to use, will be ignored by bots anyway... and botclipping ceilings aggressively also works.

Playing the map was fun... bots play well. Though I have the feeling the bots do get a bit snagged around the Quad. But Sarge seems to go for the Quad at least.

Still debating a couple of things but here's the latest.
I forgot to mention that I had added some hint brushes in the GL area and just below it.
They may have helped some.
Finishing up the clipping for the bots. That should be done by the middle of next week.
Have to work this weekend so not much time for mapping until Monday.
Edit: see latest post

Before I forget... please try to make *one* nice, representative screenshot (might even use a bit of fov 100-120, and noclip), and use that as levelshot. Your mosaic using too many small and far too large of a grid (spacing between images), IMO, is really ugly and does not do the map justice. Compare to id's levelshots, one map image, maybe add the name of the map - e.g. Aty3dm5 - Europa Station - on it (in large letters so that even as an icon the levelshot text can be read, 5-10% of image height would be my guess).
Update: Just noted your checker levelshot... I still very much prefer ONE screenshot at levelshot.

Also try and merge the scripts\sb_iceflow.shader into the aty3dm5.shader fixing the pathing of the skybox to be non-standard, but connected to the maps name, like you did for the other textures. This is to avoid custom map conflicts regarding skybox shaders used "a lot".

Just noted: One i.e. env\aty3dmsky should do as final, delete the other two.

And remember to write up a text file to the map. lvlworld.com IIRC has templates those those. (infos on creation process, credits for textures etc., infiration, time spent on map, ...)

Taking a look at your latest version.

Some more thoughts:

• I like the grate-work you added at the RG, in GL ceiling, and the ring-glass outer windows (lower floor), definitely adds some more structure here.
• This is a very fundamental thing about floor textures. Using one texture is usually very boring. You have broken this up by adding steps / height variation. There is a style I first saw Hipshot use in his map Solar (my "edit" SolarAE expanded that slightly): The idea is to use other e.g. metal textures in a patchwork, to break the monotonous floor texture design, with almost random texture patching. Also gives the map a slightly worn and repaired look. I would very much like to see something along those lines all around the GL. The GL on its pad presently looks slightly lost in the room. Large textured floor areas elsewhere could use that bit of randomness in metal plating on the floor as well.
• The RA "tube" is pretty narrow, so that a flat floor looks a bit off. You had the floor metal sides in the tube angled down at some point, and I pointed out that looked strange coming from the GL. I would suggest a angled down by only 4u so that the pad and the inner rectangular brush move 4u downward. A subtle effect to make the floor less flat. Clip the floor flat though.
• I am still not much of a fan of those fog pits... mainly because I wonder what they are doing in front of the Haste TP and also near the YA. In both cases I always shrug back, fearing I might fall into a bottomless pit. Maybe you can think up something to motivate them better.
• I am still hoping for a second small window on the outside wall of the RL stairs. Standing at the RL there are two metal plates on the right side of the TP on the wall, the right plate/area could be a window like further down the stairs, just to add a bit more happiness (bis "vista") up here.
• About the Quad: IMO it would be good to motivate its floating there with some geometry. My first thought is to add a vertical "glass" tube, that draws on some energy from ceiling/floor putting the Quad inside (the cylinder obviously is no block). Anything, just to avoid the floating in midair would be good. You might need to rebuild the geometry behind the Quad, but I would see that as an opportunity to add a bit more interesting detail.

I missed your post prior to your last. Yes I will clean up the file structure. I must have copied the extra sky files accidentally.
I didn't realize they were there.
I added some decals and some other items of interest. At present the decal textures are rather large and nearly doubled the size
of the map. I'm going to resize them and see if the quality stays the same. I spent quite a bit of time messing with the decals,
trying different textures and such. Most worked out some I canned. Still wip. Looking for more textures for decals. Mostly ones
that look like splats and smears.
Finished clipping for bots.
Added a readme file(not entirely done).

Edit: See latest post for new pk3.

Thoughts:

• I like the decals, especially the dirt ones they certainly give the map a much more "used" look. I am not so much a fan of blood decals, though.
• Your fog pits now have a poison warning sign decal. Interesting. Though the warning would actually suggest, at least to me, that you can fall into those pits. Hmm...
• Love the 2nd window to the right of the RL on the outer wall. Makes this area so much less claustrophobic.
• New window on PG outer wall is also great. Now I actually would love to have another such window one floor up at the SG out wall... maybe two small ones left and right on the outer wall instead of another large one. Or a wide one, but as a stripe, wide but not very heigh on eye-level.
• The platform for the Quad is adequate. I was wondering if the left/right edges looking directly at the Quad of the platform might not actually merit a few steps. Though actually having to jump to get at the Quad might be a good enforced gameplay element, not sure here.
• An idea to potentially play with: Add common\cushion shader to cushion the fall in a few specific areas. At least for the pit at the Haste TP that would have a bit of use. For the YA pit it obviously would not. This occurred to me since a lot of upper level to lower level jumping happens in the map, so *not* taking damage in certain areas might add a tactical element. Just a thought though...
• The new PG window sports double-light-shader stripes on both sides of the window. IMO it would be better to replace those with some metal texture. Lamps directly framing a large window do not really make much sense, IMO.
• Hope you can pretty up the RA tube somewhat, see previous post.

If you need more decals for rust and the like, look into my map AEdm7 on lvlworld, I used/borrowed quite a few of those and they worked nicely. Feel free to use them. When you do please look into AEdm7's readme file, to properly credit the original creators of those textures, IIRC most were not mine.

Cant believe I missed those lights by the window. I was so busy with the decals it didn't occur to me at the time.
Then yesterday when I changed the file structure for the sky then reapplied the texture and ran a compile to check
it I had HOM on all of my sky textures. I didn't have time to mess with it last night (had to go to work). Figured it
out this morning though. Made an error in the shader ,was aty3dm5/sb_iceflow/iceflow- - . Should have been
textures/aty3dm5/sb_iceflow/iceflow- - . Working on an idea for the passages to/from GL area. I seen
in your readme for aedm7 the address for sound files. I've been looking for some but not finding anything yet.
(Already had aedm7).

Yeah the sound files were nice too... they added a bit extra to the map and were custom... i.e. new to most gamers.

I always do this in my maps, so it only now occurred to me: Adding sound to the map would be a good thing, I normally add wind in "exposed" places, e.g. near the corner of glass windows, playing the sound entity outside the window. In your map's case the glass ring JP windows would be a "convincing case". Maybe you can find some subtle creaking sound, e.g. the tubes outside that window creak in the wind slightly. But you may come up with much cooler ideas for sounds.

This doesn't have anything to do with my map . Its a screenshot I took over 10 years ago. Me and a friend were trying out
some new skins. I think you will recognize the background (AEon).
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/86 ... /lightbox/

Hehe... AEsculpt... I liked the idea of the Brasilia architecture, and my implementation was, IMO, interesting and OK... as a DM map I liked the map less. But the map does have a slight nostalgia to it, and it is still unique in design, AFAICT.

Nope ,Look again and think lots of lava and patches. Also this http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/86 ... hotostream

Sigh... not knowing and confusing the map names of my own maps... AEarcs...

Not to worry ,I live in the state of confusion .Yourself, dONKEY, Charon, Lunaran, just to name a few are why I decided to
try my hand at mapping. I never expected to do mapping on that level and there is quite a lot I still don't understand.
For as long as I've been doing it you would think I'd be more proficient at it. That's like when Bill Brooks website went down
(WE Make Maps) I was like ,Dame there goes all them tutorials and models. I have webhosting I use for file storage. It came
with a free domain registration for a website that I haven't used. I would let him use it but have no idea how to get in touch
with him.

Latest Changes/additions
-Added more decals. I believe I'm finished with them but you never know .
-Added more windows
- Placed a few cushion clips
-Angled the floor ever so slightly downward in the RA passage.
-Change the file directory for the sky texture so as to not have conflicts with other maps

Things to do- Find sound files that will enhance the maps ambiance. There is one sound that I am looking for that seems
to be hard to find. What I'm looking for is the sound of ice cracking. Not just any old crack but when the
ice on a large lake expands and cracks is the sound I'm in search of. I have found some but they were
recorded under water and it doesn't sound the same. Very cool recording but not what I am looking for.

Edit: see below for an update.

Thoughts:

• Just to be clear, when using the cushion shader it should be made clear visually that if you jump into them that you will not take a health hit. Just plastering the lower floors with the shader should be avoided. Thus the reason I suggested the fog pit as a visual marker. And normally you will "want" to give the player a penalty for jumping down, but reward the skilled player who goes out of his/her way to avoid such damage. I should have made that clearer.
  
  In your case your gritty marks on the floor (decals) might be moved slightly (e.g. on the lower floor near the Haste TP, actually near the lowest steps), one or two on the the GL JP floor, and one near the central JP under the Quad (the present one moved slightly closer to the steps should do). And then restrict to cushion to those gritty decals. In other words... jump into grit to save health . The one already on the fog pit should be fine though.
  
  IIRC bots actually make use of this cushion shader to jump down, when it used to be too dangerous from their AI's point of view to do so. This could increase the bots vertical action.
• I like you new levelshot a lot more more. Note the spelling: "Europa Sation" (you meant "Station" right?). Some nitpicking: I would use "by Kaustic" instead of "By Kaustic", and maybe make the "Europa Station" text bold to slightly emphasise it more or 20-30% larger. I am not completely happy with the font (looks slightly flimsy), you might try using the font id used for Quake 3... "Impact"... I tested this but was not completely happy either. Just a thought.
• Remember to convert the aty3dm5.tga levelshot to JPG (60% Quality should be enough), to massively reduce file size. The present 5 MB+ file needlessly bloats the pk3's file size. (Side info: The tga gets compressed to about 3 MB, but the JPG will be around 450 KB).
• I like the new window on the upper floor above the PG (i.e. next to the SG). You might consider removing the topmost step (from 4 steps to 3) to avoid having the topmost step being on the exact same level as the bottom edge of the window glass. It looks a bit strange to walk up the steps and then have glass start right at your feet when picking up ammo. (Again nitpicking).
• Running about I still felt a decal under the GL and under the RA could help make those areas look more gritty. And also one on the large area around the GL JP (should you follow the above idea of grit = cushion there would then ready be at least one here already).
• The slight angling under the RA certainly is an improvement. I like the subtle angling.

About the sound, maybe searching for "icebreaker", e.g. a ship breaking ice could help. The for creaking anyway is great, and the sounds could then be pleased outside all (or most) of the windows.

Update: Played against the bots on Hardcore... that was a lot of fun, so the map really is working well. They go for the Quad and the ensuing mayhem is hilarious.

I was thinking(as smoke pours from his head).Being that the decal textures don't have an Alpha Channel I could convert
them to .jpg format to reduce the pk3 even more. At present all of the decals are .tga and even though I have reduced
there size by 50% they are still fairly large.
The last thing I did last night before packing up the file for uploading was the screenshot. Yes its supposed to be "station".
The Font is Copperplate Gothic. The original Quake Font. I've tried a few different fonts so far. I have quite a few so I'll try
out some more and see how they look.

Interesting... you are right about the decals. Just checked in AEdm7 and found out my decals are actually all JPGs... apparently you only need alpha for special cases.

Ever since I have 1.6MB/s download speed, I no longer care much about file size. But it probably still is a good idea to keep it low if that does not compromise quality too much.

Ok made a few changes as suggested.
-added a few more decals
-did a little work to the windows by the SG on upper level
-made the cushion clips smaller and only in certain locations
-updated the readme to include a story line
-level shot is now like original Q3A level shots (no text on pic).I think I like it
better that way. The map name shows up in the skirmish menu like it should.
(I've used uie12 for many years now cause its way better than the original ui
but I still checked it without uie12 in my baseq3).
-converted all the decals to .jpg format .

Edit: Big question. Is there a limit to the bitrate a wav file can be for q3? I downloaded a .wav
put it in the sound folder ,started radiant, loaded my map, r clicked in the 2d window ,selected target then
target speaker, hit n then selected the sound file as usual, set it to loop ,deselect then save and compile
launch q3a ,load my map and no sound or should I say the default cant find the wav file sound.
Is there also a limit to the size of the file? As far as I knew q3 don't care about the file size of a wav .

Edit: Found in another topic where Obsidian made mention that ambient sounds are mono with an
unspecified bitrate. the file I have is stereo and has a bit rate of 1411 kbps. I'm going to see if I can
make this file mono.

Edit: Ok ,I used Audacity to convert the file to Mono then I compiled the map ,lo and behold it works
fine. I have to thank Obsidian for reminding me in another post to use the search function of the
Forum. I actually use it quite often lately .

Edit: pk3 has been updated and now has the sound file. File size is 10.5 mb .

I would also like to add ,It would be nice to actually play test this map with actual people. So if anyone knows a server
I could put it up on and get some people to play it ,it would be great.