"Trespass" Tourney [Final]

[phantazm11]

That looks really great Pat!

[Eraser]

thanks

@andyw & andehx: don't feel noobish! my first official map looked like this

Which is basically as good as my last map looks

[Pat Howard]

looks like i have a technical nightmare ahead of me. r_speeds in this room alone are 30k. i'd imagine the finished map will hover around 50k, and i don't even want to think about what the spikes will be. 75k?

i guess it would be pretty easy to release a version of the map without the trees if needed, but hopefully most people have nice enough computers these days to handle them. i'd hate to see this keep people from enjoying the map though.

[CZghost]

If this version is finished, do not waste and put in the download, my fingers start to be nervous

[AEon]

i guess it would be pretty easy to release a version of the map without the trees if needed, but hopefully most people have nice enough computers these days to handle them. i'd hate to see this keep people from enjoying the map though.

IMO 50K should be fine with today's hardware. If there are folks out there who still have not updated their hardware then they cannot be helped. Mine is 5 years old... and if I can run it so should anyone else.

The "look" outside the windows made me pause thinking... "hmmm... love it why did I avoid doing that though"... well because of the tris counts... you normally can have one large tree by Sock per area that cannot be seen from other areas with such a tree... did that for the three arenas in AEdm7...

[AndehX]

i guess it would be pretty easy to release a version of the map without the trees if needed, but hopefully most people have nice enough computers these days to handle them. i'd hate to see this keep people from enjoying the map though.

IMO 50K should be fine with today's hardware. If there are folks out there who still have not updated their hardware then they cannot be helped. Mine is 5 years old... and if I can run it so should anyone else.

The "look" outside the windows made me pause thinking... "hmmm... love it why did I avoid doing that though"... well because of the tris counts... you normally can have one large tree by Sock per area that cannot be seen from other areas with such a tree... did that for the three arenas in AEdm7...

Yeah this. If anyone out there is still running on hardware that can't handle todays maps, then its just tough. Cater to the majority, and the majority these days will have systems that can easily handle anything the Quake 3 engine throws at it.

[Pat Howard]

yeah, i think 50k is fine but that should be close to the max. i think even with today's hardware 75k might be pushing it. eventually what i am going to do is turn the metal frames of the windows into alpha channel textures. this would save tons of tris and the difference probably wouldn't even be noticeable from a distance.

@czghost: sorry, but it's not ready yet. these things take time

[Fjoggs]

Once you reach a certain point, it's the engine that can't handle it, not today's hardware. Some maps will probably run like shit on a super-computer.
50k is nowhere near that limit though. Should be fine.

[AEon]

Just remembered that AEblocks was, without caulk hull, around 50-60K then with the hull around 30-35K... so I still should be on the "good" side for now... and can add more greenery... should I get around to it again.

[Theftbot]

Yes

[Eraser]

Lots of hardware speed improvements these days are due to hardware and platform specific upgrades like new features of DirectX or OpenGL, improved shader support and such things. Quake 3 doesn't use any of these specific technologies, so everything needs to be calculated by raw GPU power and I assume there's still a limit that can be hit there with the Q3 engine.

[AndehX]

Lots of hardware speed improvements these days are due to hardware and platform specific upgrades like new features of DirectX or OpenGL, improved shader support and such things. Quake 3 doesn't use any of these specific technologies, so everything needs to be calculated by raw GPU power and I assume there's still a limit that can be hit there with the Q3 engine.

Not if you use ioquake3

With that said, anything I personally make (maps, skins etc) will be intended for use with ioquake3 and not vanilla quake3

[cityy]

This does sound weird to me, Pat. The screenshot doesn't look like r_speeds should hit 30k (which is nothing negative). Did you check for weird behaviour with r_showtris and did you use hints yet?

I think if you want to have a map playable for the masses you should aim for 25-30k max. If you want a map only for people with good computers the limits should be rather high.

[AndehX]

I think if you want to have a map playable for the masses you should aim for 25-30k max. If you want a map only for people with good computers the limits should be rather high.

I see your point cityy, but don't you think the "masses" will all have computers that are more than capable of 50k r_speeds and higher by now?

[AndyW]

Ahem Ahem... ...maybe me?
I got a 2nd PC today, its an Intel DualCore 2x3.2 or something w 4 GB RAM for low Money.
I remember in 2006 my Machine was a Pentium3-800 w 128MB RAM.
My first pc was an Highscreen 386DX/33Mhz 1MB RAM & 40 MB HD and i payd alot of Money for that one.
Dont get me wrong, but im not intrested in buying actual Hardware. Its sad that im limited to older Engines due that, but for me its better then kick the Money out of the Window.
I would never spend 2000 to 2500 Euro in a PC System... Only if the Money starts falling from the sky.

[cityy]

I see your point cityy, but don't you think the "masses" will all have computers that are more than capable of 50k r_speeds and higher by now?

The majority has good computers but about 20-30% still run a pentium 4. My experience is that the most vocal people are those who have problems and that in quake the public opinion about maps is by a large part formed on forums.
Btw, the officially recommended system specs... NVIDIA GeForce 7 Series or better, ATI Radeon X1800 series or better, 2 GHz Intel Processor or better - happy mapping!

[Pat Howard]

@cityy: I haven't tested it yet but I'm pretty sure it's almost entirely because of the windows. The wooden frames are made with brushes and the trees have to be drawn through all the glass panels. I'm hoping I can fix this by using 2d frames instead of brushes. I haven't hinted anything yet because each room is in its own .map file to speed up test compiles. Not sure what you mean by weird tris behavior.

[cityy]

Not sure what you mean by weird tris behavior.

I was just referring to things being rendered that shouldn't be rendered but since you are testing rooms in separate files this can't be the problem. Hmm.
You should definitely try those 2D window frames. I think Hipshot also went for that on Solitude.

[Pat Howard]

yeah, i will, but first i am gonna finish the map, hint everything, and then see what the r_speeds look like. i did some testing last night and was surprised to find the windows and trees together only make up about 1/3 of the r_speeds in the MH room. the screens may not show it but are really a lot of tris with those broken tiles and other objects strewn about.

a quick shot of the high YA room:

[lvlshot]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3305662/baseq3/screenshots/kara/shot0322.jpg[/lvlshot]

not exactly reinventing the wheel here, just trying to stay consistent with the previous room and finish off these areas quickly.

edit: lightened the shot up a bit.

the main thing i am doing to try to distinguish the three main atriums is to have different roof/window designs in each. the roof here is another triangular truss design, but the sky lights are in the center instead of on the sides. i've also used tall windows here instead of wide ones. the RA room will have a hip-style truss with a combination of tall and wide windows.

[AndehX]

Whats the best method of applying decals like the green moss over the bricks? do you simply place a brush 1 unit above the wall with the decal shader applied to it?
Is there a better way to do it?

[Pat Howard]

in this case, the moss is painted onto the brick texture.

as for decals, this thread should help you. the key part of the shader is the polygonOffset line. that basically keeps it from z-fighting with other surfaces, so you can just place you decal overlapping the brush you want it on (with nodraw on the non-visible sides).

[AndehX]

ah excellent! I actually already had my shader setup correctly, I just didnt realise there wouldnt be z-fighting when the brushes were on top of each other. Thanks!

[Pat Howard]

wrapping up this project, felt like posting one more screenshot.

[lvlshot]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3305662/baseq3/screenshots/kara/phdm5_ra1.jpg[/lvlshot]

funny story: i struggled for a couple of weeks deciding how to detail the central pillar in this room. i couldn't think of any practical use for something of that shape just sitting in the center of a factory. but one day, i was researching ammonia factories because the concept art that i am using is mainly from one dubtown album of an old abandoned ammonia factory. in a stroke of unbelievable and hilarious design luck, i learned that these old factories had tall, cylindrical, high-pressure reactors for producing ammonia. i knew i had found the perfect concept for this part of my map, and at that point i felt like the theme was really meant to be.

here's a photo of a real ammonia reactor. the real thing is about twice as big as my scaling, but i think it still works.

[lvlshot]https://creator-space.basf.com/content/basf/creatorspace/en/celebrating-150/basf-history/1865-1944/_jcr_content/parmain/accordion_0/item_0/content/image.img.jpg/1417011573276.jpg[/lvlshot]

i've been making all the rooms in separating map files, so here's to hoping i don't run into any more weird technical issues when i put them all together.

p.s. here's the hip-style truss roof with the combination of wide/tall windows i talked about in an earlier post:

[lvlshot]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3305662/baseq3/screenshots/kara/phdm5_ra2.jpg[/lvlshot]

[AndyW]

Very nice!
I love posts like this.
The funny is, im living next to BASF... they have one standing in front of one of the Main-Buildings. I went by hundrets of times on my bike thinking "Why they put rusty metal scrap in their park?
[spoiler][lvlshot]http://www.public-star.de/sites/default ... k=YjSUbYoI[/lvlshot][/spoiler]
In 1921 one of the silos exploded. Maybe its a cool spot for the Quad?
Heres some wiki about the really big explosion.

EDIT: OOPS FORGOT TO PASTE THE LINK, SORRY!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppau_explosion

Scale of the explosion
[spoiler]The explosion was estimated to be about 1–2 kilotonnes TNT equivalent, and was heard as a loud " QUAD-DAMAAGE" in Munich, more than 300 km away. The pressure wave ripped roofs off up to 25 km away and destroyed windows even farther away. In Heidelberg (30 km from Oppau), traffic was stopped by the mass of broken glass on the streets.
[/spoiler]

EDIT2: I like the idea of placing a Quad on that cylinder! You have an explosive Base for an explosive item... If its possible linked on pickup with an Alarm-Siren!
But dont know if that will fit to the layout... Just an crazy Idea.

[AndehX]

The quad makes a global sound anyway when picked up.