Shared Map

[a13n]

@maz0r
That makes sense in a sense.

@wattro
That's why...
I misunderstood you.
Don't get me wrong.

To tell the truth I should be the laziest who drinks mega gallons of beer both at high noon and at midnight in these hot summer days.

[obsidian]

Perhaps we should stay on topic so that lazy forum viewers like myself won't have to sort my way through several pages of random chatter to get to the actual topic at hand?

[wattro]

good call.

obsidian, i like the work you did with the central atrium, it looks like it has good potential. your ideas on vertical gameplay are sound and i think we definitely need more opportunity for vert play in other areas of the map so i'll continue working with what's there and see if i can't put something up for everyone to look at for tomorrow

[a13n]

End of OT.

Based on alpha4c, I added spiral stairs in the somewhat empty room next to the base and partially merged wattro's map.
ctfptmalpha4c_a13n(400kb with bsp)



So far I've mainly modified magnus' map to express my small idea.
Can I do the same thing for obsidian's and wattro's independently?

[wattro]

hack away

[a13n]

I see.
But your map and obsidian's have already been hacked away from the original template.

[wattro]

most definitely, and it keeps getting hacked more and more. i just threw obsidians middle piece into the hacked version of the original template that i worked on last week and i'm trying to patch that together. i'm also trying to work in some of your ideas that you've posted and some of the stuff that magnus put up in his latest iteration. i hope i can have something to preview posted up later tonight but that depends on how ambitious i am today.

that all being said, i'm a game designer, not a level designer; haven't played a CTF match in years; haven't built a complete bsp or done any ctf testing on the map... so i'll be very interested to hear what kind of comments there are on it - it could be absolute crap or it could be a good start towards alpha.

one thing is that i'm not overly fond of the flag room, it seems a bit too uniform/symmetrical and maybe hard to defend. but, maybe that's good? anyone have any tips for what makes an exciting flag room?

[Magnus]

Here is a version of 4c. I dumped all of the middle I created and patched obsidian's middle into the rest of the map. It fits perfecly. I includud I belive it was wattro's rounded flag platform and surrounding brushwork. I took up a13n's idea on the area around the LG as well.

I wish I would have checked in a bit sooner I would have liked to patch in a13n's room next to the base. I agree it is very blah... and needed something for more interest.

Anyway I really like this version. Now that I think about it I am also going to go back and add in a13n's room. Here is what I have so far so you guys can have a look if you want.

magnus_ctfptm5b

I will be back in a few with this that has a13n's room patched in if you want to wait to download the fixed version.

I will post an "EDIT:" when I get back with the fixed version.

EDIT: OK The new version with a13n's room added is up. I included the .map in the .zip as well.

Use the same link already posted.

@ix-ir:
Yea I was in the process of deleteing that ctfptmalpha5 version. That is the reason for the Page not foud. Because the file was gone.
No reason to keep two very simmilar versions up.

[ix-ir]

Page not found.

[Magnus]

Just in case you guys didn't catch the edit to the post above here is the link again to the fixed version.


magnus_ctfptm5b

EDIT: WOW! This is a sloooow DL for me. Anyone else find this to DL slow for them? I was only getting about 35kbps.

[obsidian]

Nope... hitting over 200. I'll take a look at what you guys have going and offer some gameplay suggestions.

[obsidian]

General note on hallways when looking at the last few versions:

Gameplay wise, hallways are boring. They're straight, limited horizontal movement, no vertical movement. You really just move forward and backwards in them. They are not a good use of space. When you have long distance of them, they are a pain to travel down. Visually, they're boring. Running through a network of them, it gives you the feeling of being in a rat maze.

Most importantly, hallways are boring.

Try to think of the map as a bunch of atriums separated by walls. Instead of hallways, think smaller atriums that sit adjacent to larger atriums. You may need one or two small short hallways to join certain sections together, but their use should be pretty limited. So try to keep that in mind when working on the layout. Don't just expand the hallways to make them bigger, try to collapse smaller hallways into one atrium. If you have an upper floor hallway intersecting a lower floor hallway, guess what... turn it into a small atrium with access between lower and upper hallways for vertical flow.

Did I mention that they're boring?

[a13n]

@wattro
Ah, instead of a level designer, you're a game designer...
Sounds pretty cool.

@magnus
Thank you to take my idea into account.
Your new teleporting in this version seems to work pretty fine.
You are a teleport setup wizard, aren't you?

@all
Based on obsidian's comment, I've just modified one hallway connecting from spiral stairs to fog teleporter, plus changed some weapon placement accordingly.



EDIT: version updated to ctfptmalpha5b_a13n_SE

[maz0r]

[...]
Most importantly, hallways are boring.

Try to think of the map as a bunch of atriums separated by walls. Instead of hallways, think smaller atriums that sit adjacent to larger atriums. You may need one or two small short hallways to join certain sections together, but their use should be pretty limited. So try to keep that in mind when working on the layout. Don't just expand the hallways to make them bigger, try to collapse smaller hallways into one atrium. If you have an upper floor hallway intersecting a lower floor hallway, guess what... turn it into a small atrium with access between lower and upper hallways for vertical flow.

Did I mention that they're boring?

You're absolutely right. I already wrote nearly the same words about those corridors as a response to alpha1 or 2 on page 2 or something. Unfortunately this issue is still an existing problem. Long, straight, narrow corridors are just pain for us flag runners :/

[maz0r]

Okay I finally checked your alpha again, this time the last version Magnus posted. Here are my thoughts:

Let's start with a simple statement: your map is HUGE, I mean H-U-G-E, err... TOO HUGE! You MUST get rid of some routes and even complete rooms. You can play 8vs8 in this and not find an enemy while wandering around for a minute. Also the height levels differ too much. At the current state the slopes are way too steep so you will lose all your running speed resulting in a loss of flow. Bouncepad are nice, but they should not be the only option, since they make you a VERY (!!!) easy target for foes. Under normal circumstances you always (!) die while using jump pads and enemies chasing or fighting you. I suppose to get rid of the giant dual-grate-floor room holding the rail at the moment. Just make something smaller and more direct there. The key is flow, nothing is more important in a ctf map. If you got the flag you just want to run as fast as you can. So obstacles, complicated architecture, jump pads, traps, unclipped trim, etc. slows you down and annoy players. You must be able to strafe jump through your map quite easliy. The slower parts should be supply rooms with good items or complicated and dangerous short cuts. Remember, Q3 is a fast-paced action game
Also I found 3 RLs on one half of the map. Good indicator for it's size again. And as obsidian already stated, vertical gameplay only takes place in a few areas. The mid is a good start, as is the base. Frame those beginnings!

Next is the midfield, since it is the most advanced part at the moment. First of all it's design is pretty neat. I like the placements of the two YAs, the MH and the curvy, rocky look. Also the flow is good, so you can actually rush through the mid without making 32 trick jumps followed by 13 u-turns and other obstacles. IMO you should get rid of most of the lava/void. At the moment those pits are too large, so you'll drop into them by accident rather often (or will shoot into it with a single rocket, while having 200/200 or so). It's fine to have those traps, but they should be the minor part in the area where most battles are fought in ctf games today. Another thing is the route above the YA downhill into the own base. It's just too hard to defend. If an FC slips away along this path you have a small chance of killing him. This way is just too easy to go with too less time to spend in the dangerous midfield.

Now we come to the base. The size is okay, but the layout could be better. I fear it is quite indefendable at the current state. You've got round about 8 (EIGHT!) entrances to the inner base holding the flag. That's quite impossible to defend. Also because it just lacks armor, health, weapons, ammo (but I think the item placement isn't anything near final yet) and - more importantly - a place where you can defend the map without getting hit in the back. No camping spot (hell no!), but something where you are at least a bit safe and can lurk for enemies.

Also try not to use teleporters. They are somewhat deprecated in ctf. The one at YA is quite okay (dead ends holding item with a teleport exit actually work), the one behind the flag is unnecessary, also because it works both ways and doesn't bridge an enormous gap.
Another note to the YA teleport. Slow down the jump pad to it, so you actually have the choice of using the teleporter. IIRC at the moment this YA is only interesting for enemies invading your base or defenders running back, just because it teleports you back a long way into your base while wanting to leave it. Quite uncool.

Did you already think of PUs in your map? Nowadays ctf is mainly a fight for PUs since those defenders always got stronger over the years so you need the advantage of a PU to steal the flag. I did'nt come across a single one, but also played in ctf mode without sound, so I'm not sure. I'll suggets to put a '2 regen per base and 1 hast/quad (maybe alternating) in mid'-combo in (like p9 or p15). A double quad/haste could also work (like p1). Maybe you should place mh in base (respawn time 60secs), would strengthen the defence and putting a quad/haste in the old mh place in mid.

Another thing is the placement of the portable medkit. The placement is actually good (nice work with the stairs there, fits perfectly a31n), not are the lowering bars in front. If they stay down for good after activated, it's okay since they don't affect gameplay. But if they should act like a door, remove them as they will distract players.

Final encouragement (:D): The midfield promises good fights, the theme you want to create is great and I like the idea behind the flag room. I know, it's really hard to put together a good ctf map that will be played by the community (ok that's kinda impossible). There are so many good maps out there, that just don't get played because of really tiny flaws. I hope yours will be flawless!

I hope you don't feel offended by my post, it sounds kinda harsh, I must admit. But I see potential in the map and don't want it to get wasted. I hope I can contribute to this project as a regular q3ctf player with my knowledge and experience.

Greets maz0r (who hopes this didn't get too long and is quite understandable )

Edit: Fixed a stupid spelling mistake, so the sentence makes more sense now

[wattro]

Okay I finally checked your alpha again, this time the last version Magnus posted. Here are my thoughts:

Let's start with a simple statement: your map is HUGE, I mean H-U-G-E, err... TOO HUGE! You MUST get rid of some routes and even complete rooms. You can play 8vs8 in this and not find an enemy while wandering around for a minute.

i came to the same realization last night when working on the map and seeing that it's 13k by 3.5k. regardless i'll still post up the work that i have done before attempting to tackle this as it means removing a decent share of the map... but i'd like to get feedback on what's there. =)

i agree with your (and obsidian's) comments - well said. i'll leave it at that.

[a13n]

I hope you don't feel offended by my post, it sounds kinda harsh, I must admit.

No problem.
Your feedback helps to step forward.

So some of the too many routes should be shutdown?

[a13n]

I experimentally sealed off some of the hallways.
(red borders)

Are they acceptable?

Plus a few modifications.


ctfptmalpha5b_a13n_SE(440kb with bsp)

[maz0r]

I'm currently putting together a roughly cut version of your map with some ideas I got while playtesting. Stay tuned.

Ah and after working with the map in radiant (what a pain btw, all those off-grid(8)-brushes...) I saw, that I was totally lost while testing so I messed up the tele exits. Forget my comment about them

[obsidian]

I don't like the jump pad in the middle area since I was trying to make the flag runner have to travel over a bit of space before he can get to the opposite side. The middle area is supposed to give the opposite team a chance at recapturing the flag. I also measured that 3rd floor pedestal to allow for some well placed jumps (like across the void for a risky shortcut).

[maz0r]

If you refer to a31n's version, I'll agree with you obsidian, IMHO your midfield is more suiting.

[maz0r]

Okay here we go:

I fetched your .map and began to change the things I already mentioned in my test before. I remade nearly the whole part between midfield and base, more intersections, less corridors and more flow IMO. Also enhanced the base a bit. Short list of what I've done:

Attention: I only changed the red side of the map, the blue one is completely untouched. But since I flipped the center part, the corridors don't fit on the entrances any more.

Changes:

• Enhanced the base, more cover, simpler routes, removed some unnecessary exists.
• Added a room behind the flag, cut the round jump pad wall and added a window, for a (dangerous) exit and view to the (new) mh floating in mid-air above a lava pit
• Added a route from upper base to the spiral room
• Removed the in-base jumppads (3 next to each other were 2 too much)
• Added another jump pad on the left side instead to make the upper levels more accessible
• Changed the spiral room to something more interesting IMO
• Removed the bars covering the portable medkit
• Removed the tele room behind the spiral room (now access to lava pit with mh)
• Moved the 3-level YA room more close to the spiral room
• Completely removed (!) the other side of the map (the left one while watching from the flag)
• Added a corridor from the upper level there instead which leads to the new small regen-room which connects the perimeter with the base.
• Redesigned the center bottom access room to base making it more fluent
• Added a RA (60secs respawn!) there but removed the YA from upper base.
• Built a new 3-level room from scratch where the old dual-level grate room with rail was.
• Altered the YA-teleport a bit
• Reincluded obsidians original midfield
• Flipped the whole midfield to make it more balanced. Added two walls on the high platforms to prevent too fast mid-crossings.
• Added a grate in the middle lava pit, so the midfield is less dangerous and more "fight-friendly" now.
• Changed MH in mid to Quad
• some minor things I can't remember

ToDo:

• (Re)make the new perimeter room less square and a tight bigger maybe. A style like the midfield would be nice.
• Weapon and item placement (not done at all atm)
• Maybe change the PU setup (haste? haste/quad alternating? remove regens?)
• Maybe increase the MH's respawn time
• Change my two ugly small blocking walls on the highest platform in mid to something that fits the scenery and prevents the player from jumping directly to the other base.
• Still too many straight and boring corridors, CHANGE THEM FFS
• Remove the too long LOS from upper exit YA-Room until corridor to high platform in mid
• Block the way from one lower mid exit to the other more efficiently. At the moment it too easy and fast to strafe jump through the midfield. That's the disadvantage for adding the grate in the center pit.
• Make ALL rooms (except midfield) less boxy!
• Make the map vis-able. The fps drops are significant on my laptop at the current state

Screenshot (lvlshot):
[lvlshot]http://www.zeeq.de/ptm.gif[/lvlshot]

Download

I still think it could be shrunk even more, if I compare it to other famous ctf maps. But it's a step in the right direction IMHO. I hope you can get some inspriration for your project. Good Luck!

[Magnus]

OK. Almost all halls have been converted into rooms and some rather large rooms, but the entire map size has been reduced by almost 25%.

You guys should like this layout judging by what has been suggested so far.

Anyway here are my latest changes.

magnus_ctfptm5c

[wattro]

OK, that lava spewing thing is pretty fucking rad =)

[a13n]

@maz0r
Your overall connectivity is great.
I agree to your scaling.(identical to wattro's?)
1stly we should have cared more about lengthy scaling than anything else?