Screenshots

Discussion for Level editing, modeling, programming, or any of the other technical aspects of Quake
obsidian
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Re: Screenshots

Post by obsidian »

I have a cold and I'm a little queasy so this may sound more like rambling rather than a thought out explanation...


There are a few games that currently uses vector textures as an addition to normal bitmap textures, notably for Valve's Source engine for Team Fortress 2, but as far as I know no one has implemented anything on a large scale (Valve used vectors on some decals).

Normal textures that we use for gaming are compressed into a bitmap "raster" image of the surface comprised of pixels, each pixel representing a colour dot. Vectors are mathematical equations that represents the points, lines, curves, polygons of the surface and also includes colour information for each point rather than each pixel.

With bitmap images, once you scale something up, the pixels become relatively large and you lose detail and definition. Scaling down, you start to run into mipmap issues where details become averaged out until they are non-existant. With transparent surfaces, you have to do alpha-testing which can result in either jagged or blurred out edges. Bitmap images do a fairly good job on small to medium size surfaces that tile, but once you need a unique pattern over a large surface, you have to rely on larger images which requires larger file sizes, larger bandwidth, more video memory.

The advantages of vector images for game textures are that they are infinitely scalable. Since they are just mathematical equations, you can just multiply or divide its values to scale them up and down without loss in definition. You don't have to do any alpha-testing, you can specify exact transparency levels and create smooth gradients between and even modulate the values independently for each point (you could do that with colour as well, making some sort of trippy, seizure-inducing, changing rainbow texture). For file sizes, vector graphics will usually have smaller file sizes compared to bitmaps, though this heavily depends on the complexity of the image, but because they are infinitely scalable, the physical size of the texture won't impact file size.

On the down side, no hardware is optimized to handle vector images since we've been using bitmaps for years and that's the way things have developed. AFAIK, you have to processes the vectors though shaders which probably brings up all sorts of programming and performance issues which will need to be ironed out, but I supposed if Valve can do it... :) Also, it's hard to define small pixelated details using vectors, its really much stronger for smooth gradient textures with sharp, well defined edges. That worked out well for TF2 since everything was cel-animation styled anyway.

I'm not really working with a vector engine so at the time, textures are still being rasterized to bitmap for final use, but even from an artist's point of view there are a few advantages. Its hard working on a large detailed texture at 1024x1024 only to have texture budget constraints put on you and you have to resize things down to 256x256. Resizing bitmaps also causes you to lose most of the fine-lined details painted into the texture. Creating textures in vectors, you can choose your final output size when you need them exported to bitmap form without having to resample and losing details.

Vectors are also easier to work with when you are trying to create smooth curves. I tried painting the above texture at first in Photoshop, but even with a drawing tablet, it's hard to get the smooth curves while also maintaining that razor sharp edge. The pen tool in Photoshop stinks. So I imported a hand-drawn bitmap into Illustrator using the "place" command (which really tightens up integration between Photoshop and Illustrator since, I think CS1) traced it manually with the pen tool and then "placed" back in Photoshop for some final touches and exported to TGA. The place command is awesome because you can make changes to the source file and it will automatically be updated in the working file, so if I make changes to the Illustrator file, it'll automatically update back in Photoshop, so I alt-tab between programs to flip-flop between vector and bitmap versions.


As far as vectors being used in games, I think it has a strength as an alternative to alpha-testing. I'm sure it can be implemented so that you use vectors to define the edge of a texture rather than an alpha-channel to get a sharp edge without jaggies. It'll also be significant for HUD's (font rendering) and GUI's (like Doom3 style in-game menu systems) and for some special effects, particle systems perhaps. It'll probably see a lot more use in games like Paper-Mario style games, but a little more limited on your traditional FPS game where fine texture details are more of the norm.

Here's a SIGGRAPH 2007 Paper by Chris Green at Valve (PDF):
http://www.valvesoftware.com/publicatio ... cation.pdf
pjw
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Re: Screenshots

Post by pjw »

obsidian wrote:outpouring of information
Thanks--for the generous info and the link! Education is good. :)
I hope you feel better.
DTS
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Re: Screenshots

Post by DTS »

obsidian wrote:a little more limited on your traditional FPS game where fine texture details are more of the norm
Why can't people do fine texture details in vectors?
obsidian
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Re: Screenshots

Post by obsidian »

It's difficult to create pixelated details like sand or gravel for instance using vector art - not to say that it can't be done, I'm sure it has - it just takes a phenomenal amount of work to create something like that that is photorealistic. For something like that, it would be easier with a normal bitmap so you have to play to the strengths of each format to the situation.
Plan B
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Plan B »

:ninja:

[lvlshot]http://s5.largeimagehost.com/HL/UrhceeX/shot0019.jpg[/lvlshot]
g0th-
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Re: Screenshots

Post by g0th- »

Think the terrain looks a little to round-ish pherhaps put some rock models in there to make it look more natural and sharper. I think you done a good job on blending the textures on the terrain but it would look better if you used more then 2 textures. I dunno really what the rest is but I think it looks random and strange (I mean you don't find metal barrels in a forest) Pherhaps you have ideas to add more stuff so that it make sense. Is this for COD4?

anyway it looks like you're in for a good start. Keep at it
[url]http://www.g0th.se[/url]
obsidian
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Re: Screenshots

Post by obsidian »

Ahoy Plan B, been a while since I've seen any level editing stuff from you. Looks interesting, almost surreal in a way, but there's something that I really like about it, looks like some sort of impressionist painting by Monet or something. I like the minimalist look.

I disagree with g0th about the roundish hills, I don't think you intended it to look like mountains, more like small bunny hills out in the country somewhere. I would go so far as to say to smooth them out more so that they are less mountain-like and more like hills. Especially that taller hump on the left. But that's my opinion.
Plan B
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Plan B »

Yeah, just a shot of me getting to grips with the COD4 editing tools, checking out interaction between textures and various sun/lighting settings, etc.

Also, I never worked with terrain, and I really enjoy experimenting with it in this incarnation of Radiant.

At this point I liked the atmosphere of this simplistic little scene (felt 'feng shui'), but I fully acknowledge the lack of realism.

Hey obsidian :)
Still occasionally lurking, but my mapping sessions have been few and far between.
But the COD4 engine and assets interest me, and I want to see if I'm able to create something worthwhile with them.
Fjoggs
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Fjoggs »

Oh my.. Plan B posting an actual screenshot in the WIP thread is a sign for ragnarok. Lloyd M prolly pops up with a finished version of Tempest Utopia anyday now.
Looks sweet btw. ;)
dichtfux
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Re: Screenshots

Post by dichtfux »

Fjoggs wrote:Lloyd M prolly pops up with a finished version of Tempest Utopia anyday now.
Lol, funny you mention that map. Recently remembered it (saw screenies here many years ago) and googled for it only to find that it still doesn't exist, it seems. It's almost like Duke Nukem Forever.
[color=#FFFFFF][url=http://maps.rcmd.org]my FPS maps[/url][/color]
obsidian
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Re: Screenshots

Post by obsidian »

The shortest time he's ever taken to build a map was 1 day. The longest is 3.5 years (and counting) for his CTF Tempest Utopia. It is said that should he ever complete this map, the dead will rise from their tombs, and Enemy Territory will be released as a free standalone download. No, wait!...AAAAGH!
I remember someone (Digibob?) saying that they've had a few rounds on the unfinished map at the office.
Fjoggs
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Fjoggs »

haha (@quote)
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seremtan
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Re: Screenshots

Post by seremtan »

Plan B wrote:pikcher
i cold have sworn this was HL2. even the crate model and wooden posts are identical

iirc CoD4 uses patches for terrain. has the terrain patch editing technique been improved since CoD? i remember it involved a load of vertex-dragging, which allowed more precision than, say, the displacements in hammer, but was a lot more time-consuming when going for surface 'noise'
g0th-
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Re: Screenshots

Post by g0th- »

Plan B wrote:I liked the atmosphere of this simplistic little scene (felt 'feng shui'), but I fully acknowledge the lack of realism.
Using feng shui as a reason for place stuff in maps is acually quite funny :) I mean no one can argue with you about the placement because these feng shui ppl tell different things all the time, or at least that's what they claimed on the Pen and Taller tv show.
[url]http://www.g0th.se[/url]
o'dium
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Re: Screenshots

Post by o'dium »

A few OverDose pick up items and stuff...

Keep in mind most of these are animated, so will look different ingame. Plus this shots with bloom turned off:

Image
Plan B
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Plan B »

seremtan wrote:iirc CoD4 uses patches for terrain. has the terrain patch editing technique been improved since CoD? i remember it involved a load of vertex-dragging, which allowed more precision than, say, the displacements in hammer, but was a lot more time-consuming when going for surface 'noise'

Hey seremtan!

I can't really judge whether the technique has improved, since I never worked with terrain before.

COD4 uses terrain patches which can be manipulated quite extensively with the 'terrain-paint-tool'.
This tool can be used for height and alpha texture editing.
You define your 'brush'-settings (inner/outer circle radius, amplification etc.) and start drawing away at your mesh in the camera view.

Took a little getting used to with lots of terrain tearing and painstaking stitching when used too enthusiastically.
But now that I'm used to it I really enjoy how you can work smoothly from very large to very detailed, both vert-wise and 'alpha channel texture'-wise.
It helps that I work on a large monitor with high resolution settings, which allows me to manipulate an entire 8000x8000 mesh when I expand the camera view.

I'm still feeling my way around the entire terrain editing thing, reinventing wheels left and right, probably.
I'm particularly struggeling to achieve realism without the map being an obvious bowl-shaped valley, or awkward overclipping.
Also I'm considering using three layers, although that's quite expensive of course.


Love your shots, BTW (also recently played through episode 2 and had a blast).
I think the HL2-engine stills kicks quite large quantities of bottom, even when compared to newer engines.


EDIT: Hey fjoggs!
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seremtan
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Re: Screenshots

Post by seremtan »

sounds to me like they've improved it then. in CoD Radiant terrain manipulation was all done with vertex-dragging, but the terrain tool you describe sounds a lot more like the one in hammer. also, hammer has a neat little feature called 'sew' which automatically rejoins any displacement meshes that have been 'torn' from their neighbours

it is, however, a bit weak on alpha overlays, especially for things like roads or 4-wheel-drive tracks :(
Kaz
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Kaz »

looks very nice odium
BJA
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Re: Screenshots

Post by BJA »

Some more textures and models...could have made the layout and geometry a bit more interesting.

Image

Image

Highres screens:
http://www.bja-design.de/different/room1_big.jpg
http://www.bja-design.de/different/floor1_big.jpg
g0th-
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Re: Screenshots

Post by g0th- »

stunning as always BJA
[url]http://www.g0th.se[/url]
Mikko_Sandt
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Mikko_Sandt »

Working on my second Q3A map, this time a FFA map that utilizes Evillair's textures:

Image
Duke Nukem 3D map reviews: [url=http://msdn.planetduke.gamespy.com]MSDN[/url].
My latest Q3A map, Lifeline: [url=http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=37549]Topic[/url].
evillair
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Re: Screenshots

Post by evillair »

Learning how to do player models...

She's wearing a hood, that's not her hair btw. ;)

[lvlshot]http://evillair.net/tmp/female_player_model2.jpg[/lvlshot]
[url=http://evillair.net/v4]evillair.net[/url]
wattro
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Re: Screenshots

Post by wattro »

my kind of woman :)
spookmineer
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Re: Screenshots

Post by spookmineer »

Weird science...
Plan B
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Re: Screenshots

Post by Plan B »

There's something weird about her legs.

Those angles on the lower legs seem a bit unnatural.
Can't the upper and lower leg be in one straight line?

Also, I'm thinking higher knees (shorter upper legs, longer lower legs), stretching the calfs a bit inward and thinner ankles.
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