Q3ct4

[cityy]

@ Pat:
This would cause a complete layout change and take a lot of time.

I'm not sure if I still want to do changes of this "size" in the map. Reading your post shows that the map could be a lot better than it actually is with some pathing changes but as said - this would take ages to complete since I don't have that much time. I think I will keep your advices in mind for a next map. Or du you think it would be worth it changing the map completely?

These (really nice btw) layout shems make sense to me - also what you've said about balance with weapons/ammo/health/armor.
I like the 1. Idea you suggested about the item placement. I was wondering where to put the RG.. Maybe Remove the YA in the middle room and put the RG there - maybe even put it there where the mega health is atm... but where to put the MH then... Maybe you have suggestions? It's hard to do because RG should be hard to get.. if I would put it in the central room the MH

---

I was thinking about creating a new scratch to get a better overview about the whole thing. I will see when I will be able to come up with a new release.

@ AEon:

About sideways and items - I don't think putting important items in small sideways is a good idea in most cases. Why would a player want to controle the main areas if he can get along with running the sideways to stack up!? Imagine a YA or even a RA in h). Armors are items to fight for and I don't think a fight should take place in such a tight room/hallway.

I thought of moving the armor shards to h). 5 shards five your 25 armor - which can be very important. That's why I don't think the lower corridor to the LG room is the right place for them..

Well, I wouldn't call this a dedicated tourney map - it shall be playable in ffa/tdm and tourney which works pretty OK atm. I think not only tourney maps are tactical. You need armor/health/ammo in ffa and especially in tdm too - so you need to time the items there as well to get a constant advantage. I'm not creating these kind of maps because they are done quicker - I just enjoy smaller maps. They are more fast paced IMO and when me and my buddies play a lan we usually don't have enough players to fill a such a big map as e.g. AEdm7 is.

You don't need to justify for your suggestions AEon I really appreciate your feedback - it already helped me and the map a lot.

[Pat Howard]

@ Pat:
This would cause a complete layout change and take a lot of time.

I'm not sure if I still want to do changes of this "size" in the map.

Well, of course it's all up to you. The map plays pretty well as is, so I guess it all depends on your gameplay standards. What's more important to you right now, speed or quality of work? Personally I don't think it would require starting from scratch. After all, you're still in alpha, and 90% of the editing would be done to the hallways which currently have no detail. All the main room needs is a little "nudge" and the side bases can stay where they are.

But if you choose not to go with the changes, don't worry. A.) This map has already and will continue to teach you plenty, and B.) I'm sure my suggestion is not the only way to give those hallways more purpose. Maybe you could think of something that would involve even less editing.

Side note: Move the RG near the middle somewhere, maybe in one of the hallways. I like where the MH is because it creates cool trap/ambush possibilities when someone goes for it. Speaking of that area, I just noticed in one of those screenshots that you removed the arches above the MH. How come? I thought they made for great cover.

[cityy]

Of cause quality is more important. When I was working on q3ct3 I experienced that moving away too far from the orginal/planed layout make things become weird. Though as said some changes may improve the map flow.. The thing actually is planning these pathing changes and implementing them into the map with the needed optimizing. Only thinking of it makes me feel like "oh my god I don't want to do all this work...". I'm a bit lazy these days.. need to get rid of this.

Simplified layout sheme here - according to your pictures with some items already placed:

[lvlshot]http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3747/layoutwc.jpg[/lvlshot]

Maybe I'll even put the RG in some kind of hole with a tele porter exit. (Any thoughts about that?)

About the arches: I always wondered what todo with this area - opening it up or keeping it closed. Adding a wall, arches or whatever... First it was opened - then I closed it just because to give a player some things to hide behind.. Afetr that I added the arches with which I wasn't really happy. I'm still looking fot something todo here - maybe some kind of pillar.. I don't know yet. I would really appreciate some feedback here.

[cityy]

Seems like it's impossible to implement these changes with the current layout - I would have to drop some cool angles in the map.. I started to work on it but IMO there is not much of an improvement. Maybe this is caused by the layout - I don't know.

I wont continue this but I will look into the item layout.

[Hipshot]

Use the ideas for your next level if you can't use them here... it's as simple =)

[Pat Howard]

Yeah it's not the biggest problem really. I'll give you some item feedback later today or tomorrow. It's good that you at least tried something like this.

[cityy]

Some screenshots:

[lvlshot]http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9208/shot0005ue.jpg[/lvlshot]

3 TPs now - MH-room TP leads to LG room TP, LG-room TP leads to PG-room TP, PG-room TP leads back to MH-room TP.

[lvlshot]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/6715/shot0001cz.jpg[/lvlshot]

New place for the RG.

Later more.

[Pat Howard]

Christ, sorry, totally forgot to give you that feedback I promised. Are you gonna release at least one more alpha? If so I'll wait til' then.

[AEon]

Careful with those connecting TPs, they let player and even worse bots skip all over the map. If they are one way (i.e. you don't exit at another TP), this can be avoided.

[cityy]

Yes Pat, I think I'm gonna release at least two more alpha versions.

I see you are right AEon - seems like bots use the TPs very often. I think I'm gonna make it a two way TP from one side of the map to the other.

Currently having a hard time making the bots go for the railgun.. :/

[AEon]

If you want a bot with a strong RG preference then use Anarki, for a Quad preference Doom. Maybe that helps.

Another "trick": You could create a info_player_deathmatch near the RG, then use the key/value pair on them: nohumans 1. When the bots respawn here, they will probably grab the RG, but players will not.

[cityy]

***UPDATE***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct4_a08.zip

Changelog:

- mainly item layout changes
- new RG area
- added two way TP connecting the RL rooms

I hope the pk3 is ok - I'm a bit tired today..

====

Oh cool - thanks for the advice! I didn't know every bot "likes" a specific item. Gonna try Anarki soon.

[lvlshot]http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8114/shot0001os.jpg[/lvlshot]

Simplyfied the RG area - the old one was a bit dead. Also thought of a spawn point there but I didn't know about bot only spawns. Gonna think about that.

[AEon]

Short notes:

• I'd recommend just about any shader in AEcell *but* the one you are presently using: aecell_light1_orange. This light shader is not working properly because the surface is not receiving a lightmap. When working on AEmars I noted this. I'd recommend you rather actually use the proper JP shader: textures/aecell_sfx/aecell_jp. It also casts a light, plus is "animated".
• Also, give the JP brush to the RG something like a 30° angle, to make it clear the player will not only be cast up, but also backwards into the RG.
• As a temporary "help" for the player to identify the doorways that are actually TPs, maybe place a "green" light above them. You added a red light for at least one doorway somewhere else... in that style.

Somehow I have the feeling the feedback we are giving you is beating the "nifty" and "original" ideas the map had to death. I'll play the map a few times, before I try to give some hopefully useful feedback. But from the quick test the TPs "feel" a bit strange, but that may be a wrong first impression.

[Pat Howard]

Somehow I have the feeling the feedback we are giving you is beating the "nifty" and "original" ideas the map had to death.

Yes, taking large suggestions from beta testers is tricky business. Ignore them and you may end up with serious gameplay problems; take them and you may end up making someone else's map.

The truth is you can't always follow your testers' word for word. Sometimes you need to come up with your own variations of their fixes which conform to your vision. The key to this is being able to identify the core gameplay flaw that inspired your tester's suggestion in the first place.This is tough, because sometimes a tester will supply you with the solution, but not the problem. It comes with experience, but there are definitely ways quickly to get better at it.

My best advice is this: Don't just accept every suggestion as the best one. Try to translate what people are telling you, and get to the bottom of their problems, not their solutions. Only once you understand the core problem can you begin to evaluate the best possible solution for your map. I think this is best shown by example.

Tester 1: "These stairs are too long. I never use them. I'd rather just take the nearby teleporter instead."

Tester 2: "The teleporter next to the stairs is too strong. It's quicker than the stairs in every way."

Tester 1 and Tester 2 both have the same problem, and yet are offering two different solutions.

Reality: You need to balance the two paths. You could shorten one, lengthen the other, remove one of them, or remove both and make something altogether better. It's up to you; there are infinite possibilities - that's the beauty of it.

-pat

[AEon]

I may have been wrong with my last comment. I played the map against bots twice, and must say it is fun, and the TPs even though they may seem strange, work pretty well. So it might be good to keep them as they are for a while.

Some general thoughts (fine-tuning):

• Height variation: You have added some quite steep height variations in the map, to get some vertical fighting going. IMO, this works very well in the main MH arena, and also in the PG/YA/TA arena 3. Where it is fun to pick off the bots with the RG (standing up at the RG or the LG; and the YA respectively).
  
  But, IMO, the JP is a bit to high for gameflow in the RL,TP,YA arena 1 (former pool RG). Such extreme height variations can be good, e.g. in the case of the RG, but...
  
  The corridors could be made more interesting adding some height variation here as well. Presently, the out-lying corridors on the "upper" level are all at the same height. 4-5 steps up and down again might make them more interesting.
  
  For a good example of this see Sock's present Focal Point, you slowly gain height via several levels of stairs until you reach the Quad, and other height variation all over the place (AEdm7 does that too, less subtle maybe).
• Height Suggestions: Starting in the arena 1 (were the RG pool used to be), lift up the floor to make the JP from floor to YA less high (20% maybe, 64u). With the JP in your back leaving the arena for the corner, add some more steps 4-5, until you round the corner to reach the next JP (near the large stairs set).
  
  From the RG JP, towards the PG, make the player go up 5-6 steps, grab the PG - the window would also be raised - then moving onward to the YA, have some steps drop down to the YA platform again.
  
  Continuing on that path past the JP still on the upper level, enter the roofed over corridor, 5-6 steps up, keep that level until you reach the door to the main arena (2). The raised platform, continue that into the upper level of the arena. You can den drop a few steps to the LG, and on the other side to the wooden planks.
  
  Etc... the corridor from the LG to arena 1, also add some height variation there.
  
  Now, from arena 2 (main arena), to to arena 3 (with the "stream"), in the corridor under the planks, also add some steps... e.g. raising arena 3 about 3-4 steps.
  
  You get the idea... try to avoid too many areas that are on the same flat height level. You don't need extreme height differences, just several steps up (6-8 is a good value, around 64u up or down).
• Something else to consider, to make the map maybe a bit more difficult to understand, but more interesting to learn are paths over paths (e.g. "underground corridors"). Presently you could squash all height levels onto *one* level (except for the plank bridge), making the map flat. You might like to think of one or two paths that lead under another path. E.g. the JP between arena 2 (main) and arena 1 (former RG pool), could actually tunnel through the wall, to lead directly to the RL (again add a few steps to reach the upped RL floor).
• I am still hoping you will make turn the PG area into an outdoor area with nifty roofs.

Hope these suggestions are practical enough to give you an idea how to add some more variation and spiff. It should be fairly easy to add more height variation to the map, and it should be well worth the bit of extra work, IMO.

[cityy]

Some Screenshots:

[lvlshot]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9507/shot0000h.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8154/shot0001w.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/3585/shot0004jw.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/4075/shot0005w.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2323/shot0007v.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5171/shot0009if.jpg[/lvlshot]

To Do:

- Rework the PG-area
- Rework Jump pads
- some changes in ammo placement

[AEon]

• Image 4: That arced path looks interesting... reminiscent of q3dm6's path to the RG.
• Also noting some height variations... keep that up

[cityy]

The map feels much better since I added the height variations, IMO.

Thanks for your feedback (:

[cityy]

***UPDATE***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct4_a09.zip

Changelog:

- added more height levels
- changed JP texture
---- I'm having an issue here - seems like the JPs aren't sending out light. Only for me?
- reworked several paths (e.g. PG path)

Other stuff:

- started thinking about general lighting
- FPS drops in some areas - seems my favourite part of building a map has to start soon -- hinting :S
- Is it possible to edit IDs water shader, so that the water does send out light just like e.g. lava does?
- I'm thinking over switching the YA with the RL (in the YA-room :b ) Any thoughts about this?

@ Pat:
Do you use any references to build PHDM_C? I'm finding myself in the position not having much ideas to continue this italian sheme..
I looked up sock's materials page (http://www.simonoc.com/pages/materials.htm) but I'm currently looking for another way to get ideas.

Screenshot:


[lvlshot]http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/5429/shot0002.jpg[/lvlshot]

[AEon]

I like the changes to the map... the nifty details and the PG roof you took out.

• I don't understand why the JPs do not emit light, they should. Compared your shader with my original, and it should emit light... strange.
• Not sure you did, but presently all the action is happening in the outer arenas, you might want to add more player respawn points to the main arena to fix this.
• Your planks are floating at the upper end. To make the planks better fit onto geometry, you might like to do what I did in AEdm7, in RL2 arena, the rusted plank leading onto the square tubes (with the shards on them)... I added a sort of metal support on which the planks can rest. This way you can avoid the planks resting directly on geometry edges, plus the upper and lower end of the planks are flush with the lower and upper end of the path. In the RL1 arena I also did this.
• Height variation definitely helps the map.
• In the southern corridors (on the LG side), your walls are *very* high. Try to create some height variation with the top of the buildings, and maybe lower some parts of the walls there, i.e. those looking outside of the map. To make those corridors more open and less claustrophobic due to wall height.
• You used to have arcs above the MH... I really liked those. You could put a "mini-roof" on them. This would add a path to jump onto from the RG ammo window area.

[Pat Howard]

Well, I'm running out of things to suggest, which means it's probably time to hunker down and do some serious brushwork! For inspiration, I suggest you continue to browse Sock's website and pay close attention to the little details. Also, pick a couple real world locations in Italy that you like and Google that shit . I spent hours on end looking at photographs before I even started my alpha. Whenever I found something of possible use, I saved it and put it in a folder on my desktop, so now I have hundreds of images to use as concept art. I'd send you these images, but I think the process of finding a picture and deciding "I can use this!" is too important to skip.

You used to have arcs above the MH... I really liked those. You could put a "mini-roof" on them. This would add a path to jump onto from the RG ammo window area.

- Second that. Exactly what I was gonna say. It also adds more cover disabling the RG camper from some areas and making him more vulnerable to a sneak attack. It also adds a legitimate third height level. I'd either do this or make the RG window even smaller, making it easier to spam at a camper.

- Also in that area, the MH and the 50 right above each other is too much. You could take the 50 out entirely.

- I'd take the 5 shards from the YA room and put them in the center. A line of armor shards helps better establish a control point. People take time waiting for them and scooping them up. I also don't really like the awkward jump to the shards in their current location anyway.

- Did you lower the platform that the YA currently sits on? I don't like it because it's too easy to see from the path below. A player can now guard the MH and that key armor spot at the same time. I would raise it again and add some jump-able crates up to it.

- I think you should switch the YA/RA. The idea behind the TPs was that the YA base would have better attack options via his TP than the RA, which creates an interesting balance.

- Speaking of TPs, you need to make them more obvious for us!!! It must've taken me 15 minutes to realize they were there.

- You've got a lot of water pools on your floors. Sound cues are good but using so many kind of defeats the purpose for me. Right now when I hear a water splash I know my opponent is in one of like 8 places.

Overall I had lots of fun. You have the makings of a really solid tourney release here. Get to work!
-pat

P.S. You can't actually edit the id Software shaders because they are write protected, but you can paste one into your own shader file and add the "surfacelight x" line, where x is the amount of light you want to emit. Might be interesting to try a subtle light blue color if it's going to be night time or something.

[cityy]

Get to work!

YES SIR!

***UPDATE***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct4_a10.zip

Changelog:

- switched YA and RL (in the YA-room :b)
- readded arches to the platform over the MH
----- caused some changes at the RG area
- removed shards from the southern hallway
- switched GL and LG
- worked on the skybox again - compile time was shorter this time!

Screenshots:

[lvlshot]http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/9634/q3ct41.jpg[/lvlshot]
The new RG area

[lvlshot]http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/2196/q3ct42.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8132/shot0003f.jpg[/lvlshot]

Feedback:

- How do you like the changes in the item layout (especially LG/GL swap)
- Comments about the new RG area
- how to make the teleporters visible (I liked AEon's idea with the water - any other ideas tho?)


Other stuff:

- damn I forgott to look at the spawn points
- the light issue with the JP isn't really important - I'm not sure if I will continue using the AEcell textures when the map goes beta since I need to learn to create my own.
- school sucks, I have less time than I actually would like to have :/

[AEon]

Just had my best bot game in a long time... I actually played tactically because just running around had me beat by the bots (on Hardcore)... picking up the RA and the MH, plus going for the RG and health all over the place.

• I'd make the ledge for the RG less wide so that someone up there cannot hide, and you have a chance to either rail him yourself or splash damage him with a RL.
• Your JPs all have a severe case of over-bounce, I'd suggest you lower the JP destination entity by at least 32u.
• Add a few 5H on your stairs (middle arena, SG up to the RG) to give the player some intensive to take those stairs.
• IMO, you could place the LG right in the middle of the central arena, not on the side.
• The rounded off corner (arena1, to the JP) with the 2x25H is great... the health there is *really* helpful... I always JP backwards into the ledge, and then into the health. Plus you can RL the bots coming up the stairs below. Neat! But please cut off the wall brush at the start of that rounded off path, the corner gets in the way.
• Hope you'll find something to make the TPs unique, for better recognition.
• On the upper level of the central arena you have placed 3x5H near the wall (on the GL side)... it would be nifty to put them on the planks... again as a path motivator.
• I wanted to suggest a different placement for the weapons, but I have thought the better of it... well maybe swap the LG with the PG, and the PG right in the center of the central arena.
• There are still several corners where I tend to get snagged, some angled playerclip brushes could help here.
• I'd remove the pool for the GL... it's hard enough to properly get up that JP, the water slowdown makes it even worse, IMO.

[dONKEY]

A few quick observations:


The above image shows one of a couple of areas where you can still 'escape' outside the map.


This is something you have probably got in mind anyway, but high flat walls like this could be problematic when you come to texture properly. It looks ok with the temporary textures, but brick/stone/wood will show repartitions. Think about how to break up the surface.


Another small detail issue, apart from the cylinders looking a bit thick, might be best to do details like this with 2D images and a shader, vary the amount of sag as well.


Have you thought about what you are going to replace the chocolate brown upright roof trim with? The sloping roof sections look real enough, I just started wondering about Venetian roof tops. I think mostly the roof should be pitched gently, rather than upright and flat somewhat like a castle battlement.


Similar thoughts to above in terms of map realism. The detail there seems a bit chunky. As you texture and detail out the map, I think I would try to make the small details like that finer and less blocky.

Overall, looks like it's gonna be a really nice level

[cityy]

I am glad you enjoy the map AEon =)
I like your idea about the weapon placement.

@ dONKEY:

I Just started using other textures and discorvered thes problems myself. :/
I also noticed that I suck at texturing and adding details... Are there any general things a map should have detail wise?