Quake3World

Can I just posit something?
I'm genuinely interested to know if anyone thinks guns have an application beyond killing, injuring or target shooting (which is basically practise for the prior two).

The function of an object and its scope of application influence the use of said object.

Winning gold Olympic medals?

Target shooting Eraser, as outlined in the post above.

Tsakali wrote:i'm willing to allow you to protect your family in your own home. But if it was up to me I wouldn't want you walking around with a gun and taking justice into your own hands. You either accept some societal norms or just go live in the fucking woods and make up whatever justifiable morals you want...it won't affect me.

I don't really support open carry laws myself. I wish I had a web host atm, I'd post a pic I took of this morbidly obese couple in Target, the dude had an HK pistol on his hip. The first thing I thought was "Now wtf does that fat fuck need that for?" That said, no where have I said anything about living in some sort of cowboy state, so you're pretty much just spewing irrelevant bullshit.

losCHUNK wrote:
If you think that-ll happen to you then that's paranoia, having your wife raped in front of you, do you make countermeasures for asteroid impacts also ? (seeing as were leaving odds to one side), you dont know what your gun would do, could be used against you like

Gah, too many quotes in that to manage all of them.

I don't agree that firearms have no functional role in society. They're how laws are enforced, after all. My point was that if a car is used to mow down a crowd, the driver is blamed, not the car. The connection is that in the cases we're discussing, neither object is used for its intended purpose and there are a bajillion laws governing the misuse of each. Yet, people always seek to ban guns, and that makes no sense to me. I'll not spend the time debating whether or not you think a multiple murder with a gun is the weapon's intended use. I don't believe it is, you might, we'll leave it at that.

I think you're either missing a couple of the thing I've said or you're ignoring them. I stated very clearly that I don't believe that I'm JUST ABOUT to be the victim of a home invasion. But, I'm aware that they happen. If you think that I've cited some fantastic set of events as a possible outcome (rape/murder), then you really need to watch the news a bit more. When I lived in Florida there were a rash of nasty, brutal home invasions very nearby. They're scary shit, and they happen. Your statement about the intentions of most robbers is just bizarre to me. First of all, you have no idea what their intentions are. Secondly, are you willing to give them the benefit of the doubt? FFS, why? Not (and I'm saying this for what has to be the third time) that my first, or even desired, response would be to start shooting.

I have no idea why you'd say that me telling you that you don't have the right to tell me I don't need a weapon stinks of ignorance. It's not ignorant, it's true. I'm utterly baffled by this stance you Euros seem to take about criminals. "Hunt down a burglar"? Would you just let them do as they wished in your home? "Defend myself in the street"? Do you think that you should just let yourself be victimized? I simply do not understand the way you folks think.

You think that self-defense is not enough reason to own a gun? OK, that's your opinion, but do you really think that someone is always going to be there to protect you?

Again, don't get the idea that I think these things are ALWAYS JUST ABOUT TO HAPPEN, that WOULD be paranoid.

Nightshade wrote:My point was that if a car is used to mow down a crowd, the driver is blamed, not the car. The connection is that in the cases we're discussing, neither object is used for its intended purpose and there are a bajillion laws governing the misuse of each.

What? A gun's intended purpose is not to shoot other beings? What's the intended purpose of a gun then?

Nightshade wrote:"Hunt down a burglar"? Would you just let them do as they wished in your home? "Defend myself in the street"? Do you think that you should just let yourself be victimized? I simply do not understand the way you folks think.

Actually, while I don't have them at the ready, statistics have pointed out that such situations where the victim would cooperate have turned out better for the victim than where the victim would resist the assailant. In other words, if someone holds a knife up your throat and demands you give him your wallet, you're better of giving your wallet to him than trying to reach for a gun and shoot your way out.

Nightshade wrote:You think that self-defense is not enough reason to own a gun? OK, that's your opinion, but do you really think that someone is always going to be there to protect you?

That's just the thing. We "Euro's" probably live in an environment where we don't need to be protected. Sure, people are assaulted sometimes, but the odds of that happening to me are so small that I prefer having no guns allowed at all to having everyone running around carrying guns.

Eraser wrote:
Dude, chill. It's not about having the "right" or not, it's just about a personal opinion. I just don't believe a gun is an asset that anyone in the western world needs. If I look at my own life and area I live in (so there might be a discrepancy with the US there), then I have never ever felt the need to own a gun. The thought that you need a gun to protect yourself is brought forth by fear, nothing else. And a man grasping for a gun out of fear is very dangerous indeed, and not just to the person he's pointing it at. A gun, at best, gives a false sense of security.

Actually quite calm, so I have no idea why you're telling me to chill. I don't feel the need to own a gun right now. I own none of them, mostly because I don't have a gun safe and I won't have an unsecured firearm in my home with kids present. This is the point at which we reach the cultural gap that we are simply never going to bridge. Never. You view gun ownership for purposes of self-defense as fear-based, I see it as preparedness for what is hopefully a highly unlikely event. I guns only provide a false sense of security if you're an idiot, they're not force fields. My boss went through a concealed carry class last year and he said the cop teaching it told them about stats showing that simply showing a gun in a potentially violent situation defused it. That's not a false sense of security.

Eraser wrote: What? A gun's intended purpose is not to shoot other beings? What's the intended purpose of a gun then?

Mass murders aren't the intended purpose of firearms. Killing? Yes. But, the idea is that should that have to happen, it's done under lawful circumstances.

Btw, another point about your 'false sense of security' comment, I could say the same thing about laws.

losCHUNK wrote:any day now...

[lvlshot]http://i.imgur.com/YcKff.jpg[/lvlshot]

I know a LOT of gun owners, and none of them are assclowns like this freak. I really hope you posted this in jest.

Captain Mazda wrote: Outside of your prison rape stories, have you ever been in a situation where a military SMG weapon could've saved your life or a loved one?

No thankfully not. As I said, if you do open fire prepare to die of go to jail for life. No one wins in a gunfight.

I don't want to 'carry' and really I wouldn't be comfortable, where in some countries 'packing' is the norm.

Speaking of Prison, I 'pumped' a shotgun one day (ready to fire) in a riot. Standing on a tower, I aimed it in a yard of inmates. Thankfully I didn't press that trigger. That was scary for me, even recalling it today.

Maybe I should have said "If I needed to I would... "

I still recall back in the early 80's visiting Hong Kong and was near horrified to see military/police types at the airport carrying SMGs, then to go to a bank (travelers cheque days) to get some currency and the two guards, either side of the entry (some inside too I remember) armed with auto shotguns. Felt uncomfortable indeed.

Nightshade wrote:

losCHUNK wrote:any day now...

[lvlshot]Every American[lvlshot]

I know a LOT of gun owners, and none of them are assclowns like this freak. I really hope you posted this in jest.

Nah I was deadly serious, I think that's how all gun owners are, like all Americans are fat, its common knowledge ya know.

Nightshade wrote:
Gah, too many quotes in that to manage all of them.

I don't agree that firearms have no functional role in society. They're how laws are enforced, after all. My point was that if a car is used to mow down a crowd, the driver is blamed, not the car. The connection is that in the cases we're discussing, neither object is used for its intended purpose and there are a bajillion laws governing the misuse of each. Yet, people always seek to ban guns, and that makes no sense to me. I'll not spend the time debating whether or not you think a multiple murder with a gun is the weapon's intended use. I don't believe it is, you might, we'll leave it at that.

We don't enforce the laws like that, guess you mean even as a last resort though, but I wouldn't really call that a social setting and I don't think, or I don't put blame solely on a gun, in my mind when people do rage and drive their cars into things I think you could argue that the car gave them empowerment but they bear no relation to a gun because your average person has need for it and forms a backbone to our society, plus your probably more likely to survive an attack by car rather than gun and a car isn't designed solely for death, infact the opposite. The gun on the other hand only kills and the only good it could do, is kill, so a society with guns are just gonna kill each other ? (in the simplest of simple ways), plus our feds absolutely fucking hate it when you take the law into your own hands. Are you seriously saying that you believe a gun has other uses other than killing or training to kill though ?, spose you could use the small ones as a hammer ?

Nightshade wrote:
I think you're either missing a couple of the thing I've said or you're ignoring them. I stated very clearly that I don't believe that I'm JUST ABOUT to be the victim of a home invasion. But, I'm aware that they happen. If you think that I've cited some fantastic set of events as a possible outcome (rape/murder), then you really need to watch the news a bit more. When I lived in Florida there were a rash of nasty, brutal home invasions very nearby. They're scary shit, and they happen. Your statement about the intentions of most robbers is just bizarre to me. First of all, you have no idea what their intentions are. Secondly, are you willing to give them the benefit of the doubt? FFS, why? Not (and I'm saying this for what has to be the third time) that my first, or even desired, response would be to start shooting.

I think were missing a lot of points raised by each other, but these posts are a bit huge and both know it ain't intentional, plus I know I've had this exact convo a few times and no doubt you have n all . I think eraser caught this bit pretty well though, where he said about Guns are only used in times of fear and the fearful man with a gun can be more dangerous than good, would you really fancy a shoot out with your wife and kids in the house ?, risking it all ? and I think the odds of some random person breaking into your house and killing / raping you is pretty big, not as big as we'd like but preparing for such eventualities should really have you preparing some paedo traps n shit for outside schools whilst your at it. Robbers are frequent but this comes back to the fear and escalating a situation that wouldn't of otherwise through news reports of rape and murder. Can tell you now that if I confronted someone in my house with a Gun or, maybe a knife, i'd sit, roll over and play dead, whether I had a gun upstairs or not but this is just 1 scenario.

Nightshade wrote: I have no idea why you'd say that me telling you that you don't have the right to tell me I don't need a weapon stinks of ignorance. It's not ignorant, it's true. I'm utterly baffled by this stance you Euros seem to take about criminals. "Hunt down a burglar"? Would you just let them do as they wished in your home? "Defend myself in the street"? Do you think that you should just let yourself be victimized? I simply do not understand the way you folks think.

You think that self-defense is not enough reason to own a gun? OK, that's your opinion, but do you really think that someone is always going to be there to protect you?

It does though, going round saying I havnt got the right to essentially offer an opinion about something we'd know atleast a little something about sounds closed minded, especially when your telling us the exact opposite, its like the conspiracy theorist that says *you can never convince me otherwise* - its a locked mindset and dismissive.

And me personally have had my share of trouble, its the way the world works, never thought *if only I had a gun*, in the situations i've been involved with a gun would've just made the situation worse and I would be one of those people you need to keep firearms away from, despite no doubt being completely legal to own one in your country (and mine). As I said you have no idea what your gun would do and could bring more trouble than good, its adding another problem to an already dangerous situation. Ive had 3 mates killed n all and a gun would of never of helped them in a million years.

Nightshade wrote:
Again, don't get the idea that I think these things are ALWAYS JUST ABOUT TO HAPPEN, that WOULD be paranoid.

Don't lie, we all know your getting flash backs from 'nam, think them gooks are coming to raid your house and arse, its over man let it go

I may or not reply to your next post if you chose to reply mind, know it stinks of ignorance but this dragging now no ?

Just thinking what Newport would be like on a Friday night if our country was armed, makes me think you fat bastards deserve more credit then I give out, wondering how you haven't killed each other into extinction.

I find that guns are interesting from an engineering stand-point, but it's a shame that such precision and effectiveness has been granted to such a useless object. It's hard to say "ban guns" now, since so many have them and if you really did ban them, not everyone would rid of them. It would make the folk who do have them that much more dangerous. On the other hand, it's not exactly fair to expect the inventors of guns to look ahead and say "gee, this is some pretty deadly shit, maybe I should just forget about this one." Guns are part of a natural progression of projectile-based weaponry. Inventors wanna flaunt their shit, people wanna get paid, this is how the world turns. The only way guns will ever disappear is if everyone jumps on board or at least enough people that the collective mentality is such that "guns are bad, mmkay" and that gets passed onto future generations, enough so that guns are eventually phased out. Don't hold your breath!

Just thought I might add my opinion. Like you give a shit...

I'm no right wing, bible thumping, conspiracy theory driven Bible Thumper. But I do own a few firearms and have my CCW.

Personally, I believe that the majority of Europeans will never have the connection, appreciation or respect for firearms that Americans do. So expecting our friends from across the pond to identify with the American culture is wrong. Americans will never be able to provide a reason that is valid enough to change their social programming. Europeans have been taught their entire lives that guns do not sever a practical role in society. Maybe it's because most of their civilizations evolved from forms of dictatorships that disarmed citizens. Who knows? However, it's evident that we'll never approach the ownership of fire arms from the same perspective.

In all of these gun debates you always see the same scenarios and opinions being presented. Why do you own guns? Why someone thinks guns are unnecessary. Why specific guns should be banned. Etc...

The reason I own a gun isn't because of fear or oppression. I look at it as an affordable insurance policy that I hopefully never need to use. You wouldn't accuse someone who has home owners, car, health or life insurance as being paranoid or fearful. You would call them responsible and prepared.

In our society guns serve more than one purpose. They are used for many sporting and recreational activities. We also use them to protect ourselves from unthinkable (unlikely) harm. It is an American's constitutional right to arm themselves against tyranny and oppression from their government. Although I don't think that I will ever have to use my firearm to overthrow the government. I still can't rationalize taking rights away from millions of responsible gun owners for the action of few.

The most baffling of all is one's reasoning as to why one deadly weapon is more acceptable than another. BAN ASSAULT RIFLES, you hear them yell. Why? Because you can kill a lot of people with them? That is just as reasonable as banning cars because they kill a lot people. And don't give me that shit about cars serve a purpose and guns don't. What reasonable purpose does a Porsche 911 or GXR11billion serve? You can get to where you're going just fine in your very responsible, fuel efficient SMART car. Maybe the government should also regulate where you live, what TV shows you watch, what clothes you wear and what food you eat because a few other morons can make the right decisions.

America is inundated with fire arms. So banning them is not a practical option. Especially for the law abiding citizen. Banning assault rifles isn't going to keep lunatics from killing lots of people. They'll just find another way to their means. You also can't have your government taking civil rights away from millions because the actions of a few.

Just my thoughts. Fuck off if you don't like um.

mouth diarrhea from YourGrandpa? Never saw it coming.

Might aswell of just puked on his keyboard, Britain's been a democracy (strictly speaking) for longer than the USA has been a country, rights to vote were granted when you were still learning to walk and our need for firearms was rendered pretty much useless since and no attempts to ban has ever been enforced because we never felt the need to arm ourselves, only control to stop remtards like him from being put in a situation to go Rambo, I personally love boom sticks, granted the most I can tell you is which end the bullets come out of but I have more than enough appreciation for firearms in all shapes and sizes, just sucks that they're used for such nasty things.

I agree that you cant do anything until the guns in circulation are gone either, be stupid disarming law abiding citizens when obviously the criminals will, be criminal, page back said there's enough guns to arm 90% of your population ?, tis a pretty tall order, the situation needs to be addressed though ?, the statistics seem a bit of a joke in relation to other countries, including your closest neighbours and whether I'm completely wrong or not there must be a problem that needs addressing ?

Tsakali wrote:mouth diarrhea from YourGrandpa? Never saw it coming.

U mad.

Oh hi gwamps.

YourGrandpa wrote:I'm no right wing, bible thumping, conspiracy theory driven Bible Thumper.

All evidence pointing to the contrary.

losCHUNK wrote:
I may or not reply to your next post if you chose to reply mind, know it stinks of ignorance but this dragging now no ?

lol @ "paedo traps"

Look man, I think the cultural gaps are too wide for any sort of true understanding here, so agree to disagree for the most part.

I'm not Homer Simpson, but guns are tools. No, their intended use isn't anything other than killing when you get down to it. Not going to debate the car analogy further, I'm not saying guns and cars are identical, let's just leave it.

I agree that there are cases where guns wouldn't help. I was held up by a guy with an Uzi when I was 16. If I'd had a gun and for it (like an idiot), I'd be dead. Guns won't help every situation, but there are cases where I'd most certainly want one.

Last thing: You're only acting out of fear (home defense situation) if you're not trained properly in how to handle such a scenario. Someone that knows how and when to use a gun isn't a threat to anyone except the person trying to rob them.

Nightshade wrote:Last thing: You're only acting out of fear (home defense situation) if you're not trained properly in how to handle such a scenario. Someone that knows how and when to use a gun isn't a threat to anyone except the person trying to rob them.

Who is doing this training? You sure as hell don't need it to buy a gun.

Psyche911 wrote:

Nightshade wrote:Last thing: You're only acting out of fear (home defense situation) if you're not trained properly in how to handle such a scenario. Someone that knows how and when to use a gun isn't a threat to anyone except the person trying to rob them.

Who is doing this training? You sure as hell don't need it to buy a gun.

Lots of people do that training. Do you need it to purchase a gun? No. Should you? Yes.

^ this

you need to learn to drive a car before getting a license. no reason the same shouldn't apply when getting a gun license (since we're going with the whole "gun-car" thing)

Home security for me means keeping the windows and doors locked. The thought of needing a gun for home security is pretty bizarre to an Australian.

Eraser wrote:
That's just the thing. We "Euro's" probably live in an environment where we don't need to be protected. Sure, people are assaulted sometimes, but the odds of that happening to me are so small that I prefer having no guns allowed at all to having everyone running around carrying guns.

My main point is that there are reasons for this environment, reasons that don't exist in the US. To talk of banning guns, etc., is to overlook these reasons and therefore ensures that we'll never get to that same place.