EURO 2008

[losCHUNK]

of course, but in soccer, one goal means too much. it changes the whole game, and a bad call can make it change in a way that is unfair.

a good example of how important a goal is Liverpool v. Milan '07 in the champions league final. liverpool dominated that game, and milan got a fluke goal and won the game and became champions of europe. the best team in recent history was the france team of 2000 that won the euro championship. (the france team in 98 was a bit lucky Imo). they won that game BARELY in overtime. a single bad call would have destroyed that legacy unfairly and wouldnt have given france a chance to overcome the mistake. thankfully, that didn't happen.

giving the other team a chance is an important part of soccer. its the reason why golden goal was scrapped, and the reason silver goal was scrapped.

my point is that yes, a team can overcome it, but when one goal matters THAT much, changes the result of the game by scoreline and style of play, the consequences of one bad call is ridiculous. i dont mean to completely take out the human element of reffing, but just on two points.

im a liverpool fan ;], and simply put we shouldve scored another, i also remember the 'was it over the line' goal against chelsea in 05, what goes around comes around

i guess i just believe that you make your own luck

not only that but if you add goal line tech which can ultimately change the course of a game then what about booking players ?, liverpool this year against milan where matterazzi got 2 soft yellows.....

just leave it hows it is ;]

[chopov]

thats the rule which is causing confusion though, and seeing as he didnt leave the field of play delibrately the rule doesnt apply

i know a lot of refs that say otherwise ;]

In short words the paragraph says: if a player leaves the field deliberately he has to be cautioned. Not more not less.
Would be interesting with which reason your refs back up their opinion.

Whatever...my bed's calling already since 2 hours. gn8 @ll

[losCHUNK]

thats the rule which is causing confusion though, and seeing as he didnt leave the field of play delibrately the rule doesnt apply

i know a lot of refs that say otherwise ;]

In short words the paragraph says: if a player leaves the field deliberately he has to be cautioned. Not more not less.
Would be interesting with which reason your refs back up their opinion.

Whatever...my bed's calling already since 2 hours. gn8 @ll

the bit about leaving play continue ?

IF a player leaves play delibrately, to place another player (rvn) in an offside position, then play will continue (counting the player outside of the field of play) and the next time the ball is out of play the player will be cautioned, otherwise the player is to be counted outside of play

now, IF that ref was counting pan as delibrately playing rvn offside then he shouldve seen a yellow, seeing as he didnt bring out a yellow i doubt that rule even went through the officials head when he awarded the goal....

[Chupacabra]

of course, but in soccer, one goal means too much. it changes the whole game, and a bad call can make it change in a way that is unfair.

a good example of how important a goal is Liverpool v. Milan '07 in the champions league final. liverpool dominated that game, and milan got a fluke goal and won the game and became champions of europe. the best team in recent history was the france team of 2000 that won the euro championship. (the france team in 98 was a bit lucky Imo). they won that game BARELY in overtime. a single bad call would have destroyed that legacy unfairly and wouldnt have given france a chance to overcome the mistake. thankfully, that didn't happen.

giving the other team a chance is an important part of soccer. its the reason why golden goal was scrapped, and the reason silver goal was scrapped.

my point is that yes, a team can overcome it, but when one goal matters THAT much, changes the result of the game by scoreline and style of play, the consequences of one bad call is ridiculous. i dont mean to completely take out the human element of reffing, but just on two points.

im a liverpool fan ;], and simply put we shouldve scored another, i also remember the 'was it over the line' goal against chelsea in 05, what goes around comes around

i guess i just believe that you make your own luck

not only that but if you add goal line tech which can ultimately change the course of a game what about booking players ?, liverpool this year against milan where matterazzi got 2 soft yellows.....

just leave it hows it is ;]

i dont like chelsea, but anyone will tell you that the 05 chelsea team was rock solid. i was rooting for liverpool in that game, but chelsea should have won it. you made the argument earlier about true champs, but chelsea resembled that more than liverpool. what are we really rewarding here?

im not saying to eliminate luck (is it luck that you get a bad call? maybe. i think good luck is more like a lucky deflection.) im saying to limit luck when it comes to something that can be so insanely pivotal.

i think the slippery slope thing can easily be contained. tennis has been able to do it. you cant challenge every call in tennis. american football has prevented slippery slope too. soccer can do it as well.

[losCHUNK]

mate, that CL run lead to istanbul 05 which is one of the greatest matches ive ever seen, 3-0 down at half time ? thats a sign of a champ ;] (and the olympiakos match)

and at anfield we pulled down chelseas blue little blue shorts and spanked there ass red

its the same if a championship team turns up and parks its entire team bus in front of the goal, if we cant score then its our fault, if you cant come back from a goal down then good bye, its the charm of footy

and in the CL 05, even IF the goal wasnt over the line then cech wouldve been red carded and a peno awarded, but again, you make your own luck

in 07 inzaghi got through because of a free kick outside of the area, offside yes but they made there own luck....

[Dark Metal]

What you all have to understand is that all the rules are at the discretion of the referee. "In the opinion of the referee" is a term widely used in the FIFA rule book.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affeder ... e_1581.pdf

[Eraser]

What I've heard from the commentators on Dutch radio is that when a player is behind the goal line because of a gameplay situation, then it's not offside. This even counts when a player lies injured behind the goal line.

[Ryoki]

lol, I live in the ghetto and the kids down on the playground are actually shouting "go holland!"
Football will bring us all together!

I had the same experience
Great match, really enjoyed watching it.

And about the offside thing, yeah, the ref made a bad call imo - but this sort of thing sometimes happens.

[chopov]

@ Eraser: That's what I've heard too.
Additional on page 71 of DM's link: "play is allowed to continue until the ball is out of play if a player is, in his opinion, only slightly injured"

[...] the bit about leaving play continue ?

IF a player leaves play delibrately, to place another player (rvn) in an offside position, then play will continue (counting the player outside of the field of play) and the next time the ball is out of play the player will be cautioned, otherwise the player is to be counted outside of play

"otherwise the player is to be counted outside of play"

Where did you find this tiny but decisive sentence in the rules?
If this would be the rule and applied consequently, every player trying to keep the ball on the field near the touchline by himself crossing the line would automatically be outside of play...
...no way.

[losCHUNK]

thats the bit i added, i shouldve placed it in brackets, chesting the ball out into play when off field n shit is diffeent rules again

but thats the rule that everyone was getting worked up over, the rule that doesnt allow a player to run out and intentionally place the player offside, seeing as it wasnt intentional then the rule doesnt apply

and if you count everyone outside of play in play then why would the rule need to exist ?

i know something that does contradict me though, which isnt found in the rulebook ;]

[bikkeldesnikkel]

awesome

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Ref right to award Ruud goal, says UEFA

Updated: June 10, 2008, 8:12 AM ET

BASEL, June 10 (Reuters) - Netherlands' controversial first goal in Monday's 3-0 Group C victory over world champions Italy at Euro 2008 was correctly awarded despite many observers believing it was offside, organisers UEFA said on Tuesday.

UEFA general secretary David Taylor told a news conference the officials correctly interpreted Law 11 which relates to offside when Ruud van Nistelrooy scored after 26 minutes.

He stated that Christian Panucci played him onside although the Italian defender was off the pitch at the time.

'The goal was correctly awarded. Not many people, even in the game, and I include the players, know this interpretation (of Law 11),' Taylor said.

He conceded, however: 'The Law itself does not deal with this situation directly at all,' but said that referees universally interpreted it in the way that the officials did on Monday night.

He said he had every sympathy with the wider footballing public for believing the officials called it wrong but said that Swedish referee Peter Frojdfeldt and his assistant Stefan Wittberg were absolutely correct in their interpretation.

Taylor told reporters: 'Even though the Italian defender (Christian Panucci) was off the field because of his momentum, he is still deemed to be part of the game and is therefore taken into considersation as one of the last two defending players.

'As a result Ruud Van Nistelrooy was not nearer the opponents' goalline than the second last defender and therefore could not be in an offside position.'

'This is a widely known interpretation of the offside law among referees but is not generally known by the wider footballing public and indeed many people in football,' he said.

'That is understandable because incidents like this are very unusual.

'However, there was a similar incident in a Swiss League match about a month ago between Sion and FC Basel and after a TV commentator initially suggested the referee had made a mistake, he later apologised publicly and congratulations to him.'

The goal caused confusion among both the Italian and Dutch players too, a number of whom looked astonished when the goal was awarded.

It also provoked some angry reaction among the Italian fans when it was replayed on the giant screens inside the Stade de Suisse stadium and led to Luca Toni being booked for dissent for protesting.

Taylor said his yellow card would stand and that goals would still be replayed on the screens throughout the tournament.

The International Football Association Board, the guardian of the game's laws, had the prerogative to examine the law if they thought the wording needed to be clarified or a loophole existed, Taylor said.

[losCHUNK]

yah thats what i was on about, its 11.11 in the advice to referees handbook which is an absolute bitch to find but it says this -

A defender who leaves the field during the course of play and does not immediately return must still be considered in
determining where the second to last defender is for the purpose of judging which attackers are in an offside position.

Such a defender is considered to be on the touch line or goal line closest to his or her off-field position. A defender who leaves the field with the referee's permission (and who thus requires the referee's permission to return) is not included in determining offside position.

bit of a contradiction to the rulebook imo, i know refs graham pole and rob styles were saying it was a definate offside yesterday, ah well, as it goes it does appear to be a grey area :/

you could also argue that pan suffered a head injury and play shouldve been stopped though :P

...... CMON SPAIN

[chopov]

...... CMON RUSSIA

[Chupacabra]

mate, that CL run lead to istanbul 05 which is one of the greatest matches ive ever seen, 3-0 down at half time ? thats a sign of a champ ;] (and the olympiakos match)

and at anfield we pulled down chelseas blue little blue shorts and spanked there ass red

its the same if a championship team turns up and parks its entire team bus in front of the goal, if we cant score then its our fault, if you cant come back from a goal down then good bye, its the charm of footy

and in the CL 05, even IF the goal wasnt over the line then cech wouldve been red carded and a peno awarded, but again, you make your own luck

in 07 inzaghi got through because of a free kick outside of the area, offside yes but they made there own luck....

making your own luck is like taking a shot at goal, having it deflect off someone else and it going in. creating your own luck means getting all the lucky bounces and such.

im all for different styles of play in the game. even though itlooks like crap, if a team parks their bus in front of their goal and wins it "luckily," so be it. that's just good luck and they made it out that way.

what is bullshit luck is when you do everything right (e.g. play the offsides trap perfectly) and you are still penalized because of a bad call. what kind of luck is being awarded in that case? nothing that the team could have done differently. and what incredible award too! why would you want to promote taht?

[losCHUNK]

mate, that CL run lead to istanbul 05 which is one of the greatest matches ive ever seen, 3-0 down at half time ? thats a sign of a champ ;] (and the olympiakos match)

and at anfield we pulled down chelseas blue little blue shorts and spanked there ass red

its the same if a championship team turns up and parks its entire team bus in front of the goal, if we cant score then its our fault, if you cant come back from a goal down then good bye, its the charm of footy

and in the CL 05, even IF the goal wasnt over the line then cech wouldve been red carded and a peno awarded, but again, you make your own luck

in 07 inzaghi got through because of a free kick outside of the area, offside yes but they made there own luck....

making your own luck is like taking a shot at goal, having it deflect off someone else and it going in. creating your own luck means getting all the lucky bounces and such.

im all for different styles of play in the game. even though itlooks like crap, if a team parks their bus in front of their goal and wins it "luckily," so be it. that's just good luck and they made it out that way.

what is bullshit luck is when you do everything right (e.g. play the offsides trap perfectly) and you are still penalized because of a bad call. what kind of luck is being awarded in that case? nothing that the team could have done differently. and what incredible award too! why would you want to promote taht?

it can happen to anyone though and it makes things exciting, if a team wants to win then they should be able to overcome a bad decision, 1 decision shouldnt decide things, if they played that well then they should be able to overcome it, its always been the same in football.... and i see a mistaken call from the ref as a lucky call, hes mistaken and the team on the receiving end of the fortune get a lucky decision

and it will just solve 1 of the many problems in football, why change 1 thing when a bad decision in another area of the field can result in the same outcome ?, should we change everything or just 1 thing ? if we change everything it would change the sport, if we change 1 thing then were just farting about. just leave it how it is imo

even if goal line tech was introduced for the game yesterday and the goal awarded poeple would still be saying "it was offside because rule XX says this", i also like the idea of the ref having the final word.... dont like the idea of having to wait there in a CL final waiting for a screen to say 'goal' or 'no goal', its just a difference of opinion

[Chupacabra]

im not saying to change the game completely, just review goals for two things only if its controversial: offsides and the goal-line.

i think its admirable to say that a real team should be able to overcome a bad decision, but what if that bad decision creates a goal?

its a fact that games are low scoring and that one goal can be the difference between even a great team and a lousy team.

consider something i believe seeing (im an american and when they broadcast games here they go a bit happy with the stats), brazil is the ONLY team to have a winning record when down a goal.

so is no one else worthy? yeah, a good team should be able to overcome a goal, but thats not very realistic.

yes, it would suck to have to sit there and wait for a screen to say goal or no goal, but you wouldnt have to wait everytime, only if its a controversial goal and should the other team decide to challenge it.

[losCHUNK]

what about a bad decision on a free kick outside the area ? or in awarding a penalty ? that leads to a goal, if you sort offsides and fawlty goals out then theres another tin of worms to be opened up....

i see what you mean now though, im looking at its effects on league football, in which case the big majority of games have more than 1 goal.... still think im right though :P

if a team gets a lucky decision then that team gets an extra goal than they normally wouldve had, it shouldnt be the end of the world if it is 1 goal, the opposing team can still play for a draw or go to win the game, if they dominated the game that much then that shouldnt be a problem imo, but if both teams are even then on that day luck does have its affects, anything can happen in football :]

it will happen one day though, i thought it was going to be introduced in 2010 until the FA decided to scrap the idea, loosing out on a lot of money in the process and without giving a reason

sweden finally made the breaktrhough too :]

[Chupacabra]

well, you would only do it for objective things like offsides (on a goal) or goalline crossage. thats the way it is for american football.

[losCHUNK]

hmmmm, nah, were 2 sides of the same coin :]

villas gunna be some very hot property this summer im thinking, hope rafas got a cheque book

[Ryoki]

Yay sweden!
What the hell was greece doing. The first half especially was painful to watch.

[Chupacabra]

im kind of weird so i actually kind of enjoyed the sweden v. greece game. yeah, they eventually broke down but damn do the greeks know how to defend. its interesting to watch their organization in the back. plus it was interesting because a lot of people felt like their euro2004 run was a fluke and they had to defend their reputation.

[Chupacabra]

hmmmm, nah, were 2 sides of the same coin :]

villas gunna be some very hot property this summer im thinking, hope rafas got a cheque book

villa should have been very hot property years ago. he's been damn good for a while now and im not sure why the big teams were waiting to sign him. were they waiting for his price to go up? anyone whos been really watching him knows of his quality.

same goes for tevez and berbatov. i know that theres some price discrimination going on. a poorish team in south america is going to charge more for a budding player if man u calls than a mediocre european team calling, but for some players you just know that they're good.

tevez, berbatov, and villa have been good for quite some time.

i wonder if its some type of arrogance. rofl at mascherano and tevez being good enough to play consistently for an international side (if not THE best international side--Argentina), but not being good enough to get more than a few games for West Ham.

[losCHUNK]

yea but valencia have said that they are willing to let villa and silva go for the right price, and with that hat trick probaly adding another 10mil onto his value hes probaly just priced liverpool out of the competition theres an auction brewing

and i have no clue what west ham were playing at, tevez kept them up pretty much on his own and mascherano mustve had some appearence clause in his contract with west ham, boggling though to have player like that not even making reserve games !. shame too, watching young players stagnant

[Chupacabra]

best footy game on the 360. okay.... GO

im not sure what soccer games are out for the newer systems, but i heard that latest pro evolution soccer is actually best on ps2. supposedly, there were framerate issues or some problem with the hd stuff on the game for 360/ps3 so i dont know.

hopefully things will be fixed soon. i dont know much about this stuff