Quake3World

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17537590/

I never liked having to kill them during my cancer research. Now I am afraid they knew exactly what was coming every time I showed up at the cage and pulled another one out...heh.

Seriously, though, if this finding continues to gain more support, I wonder if it will have any big impacts on how animal research is conducted.

I'm guessing PETA is going to be arming themselves with this finding.

That capacity brings with it a greater potential for suffering in animals that can vaguely ascertain the fate they'll meet during experimentation. If we can still justify their use, perhaps we ought to treat them a little more like terminal human cancer patients given experimental drugs as a last ditch effort to save their lives.

very interesting - here's a better writeup, though I look forward to reading the paper itself:

http://www.biologynews.net/archives/200 ... first.html

I'm very interested in metacognition, and it's somewhat mindblowing to think that rats are capable of such states of consciousness.

non-human cognition is becoming more and more fascinating - primates, elephants, cetaceans, cephalopods, birds, and now rats... all showing remarkable cognitive abilities. Birds are particularly interesting because they perform feats which were thought to require well developed cortical structures.

I suspect that if we truly knew the reaches of their minds, we'd be humbled and horrified at how we treat them.

who cares rats are gay

stocktroll wrote:who cares rats are gay

Ha, that's a thoughtful post if I've ever seen one.

Sometimes I've wondered if my dog possessed self cognition from the way he looks at himself in the mirror, moves in the mirror, and looks at me in the mirror.

Silly thing to think about a dog though...

I wonder if this news will make us begin experimenting on another animal.

I have a hard time taking a stance on this. My primary reasoning is that we're the dominant species and we should make use of resources as we want. On the other hand, compassion is due towards beings at a certain point but where is that line and who defines it?

And what about this...what if the animals we commonly eat had evolved beyond where they are today, somewhere between chimps/dolphins and humans? Would we still eat them or would our compassion turn us into vegans? It would be as though The Island actually took place but it wasn't clones it was our food.

bitWISE wrote:I have a hard time taking a stance on this. My primary reasoning is that we're the dominant species and we should make use of resources as we want.

Wait what?

That's the reasoning that has fucked us over so many times in the past, and continues to do so today.

We weren't very 'dominant' during the plague.

bitWISE wrote:My primary reasoning is that we're the dominant species and we should make use of resources as we want.

R00k wrote:Sometimes I've wondered if my dog possessed self cognition from the way he looks at himself in the mirror, moves in the mirror, and looks at me in the mirror.

Silly thing to think about a dog though...

I have a sliding glass back door in my house, and my dog will watch me sneak up oh him in the reflection and turn around just before I can startle him. He seems well aware of his own reflection.

Pooinyourmouth wrote:

R00k wrote:Sometimes I've wondered if my dog possessed self cognition from the way he looks at himself in the mirror, moves in the mirror, and looks at me in the mirror.

Silly thing to think about a dog though...

I have a sliding glass back door in my house, and my dog will watch me sneak up oh him in the reflection and turn around just before I can startle him. He seems well aware of his own reflection.

IIRC it's a big dog yeah?

My parents' dog is a little Westie, thick as fuck it is too. I take some guilty pleasure scaring him with his reflection as it's usually him pissing me off with his foot chasing/biting antics.

Speaking of dogs, I just had a look for the least intelligent dogs on that internet thing and got a list.

http://petrix.com/dogint/index.html

I also found this link: http://www.canongate.net/Lists/Animals/ ... tBreedsOfD

Leading me to this link: http://www.canongate.net/Lists/Animals/ ... MostCamels

So the main thing I learned was that Sudan has more camels than Mauritania.

I have 2 pitbulls. Both are as smart as a whip.

Edit: both are about 55ish lbs.

Pooinyourmouth wrote:I have a sliding glass back door in my house, and my dog will watch me sneak up oh him in the reflection and turn around just before I can startle him. He seems well aware of his own reflection.

No, he is aware of YOUR reflection.

i guess after hanging out with scientists for a long time they got some smart rubbed off on them

Fender wrote:

Pooinyourmouth wrote:I have a sliding glass back door in my house, and my dog will watch me sneak up oh him in the reflection and turn around just before I can startle him. He seems well aware of his own reflection.

No, he is aware of YOUR reflection.

No I tested that. He is aware of both mine and his. I snuck up to the table and made the same moves, but he didn't do anything. It wasn't until I got to him that he would turn around. He knows who he is in the reflection.

I also acted like I was going to swat him and he flinched just from watching the reflection, but if I swing at nothing he just continues to watch without flinching. He also knows to react by turning around, and not to react to the reflection itself. He's a smart fucker.

I always heard people say that rats were smart, but I didn't know they were that smart.

i dont know why really, but this just cracked me up




Guess its very douglas adams.


But yea, i cant deny that we wouldnt be were we are medically, but i never could get my stomach to settle on animal testing. Especially when i say that decapitated dog vid where they bring his head back to life. I mean can you imagine being that dog?

Messed up cuz.

tnf wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17537590/

I never liked having to kill them during my cancer research. Now I am afraid they knew exactly what was coming every time I showed up at the cage and pulled another one out...heh.

Seriously, though, if this finding continues to gain more support, I wonder if it will have any big impacts on how animal research is conducted.

I'm guessing PETA is going to be arming themselves with this finding.

Just read the article over on sciencedirect.com. Its always disappointing to see the difference between the popular journalistic summary and the real paper. The results of the paper actually do not show any evidence of deeper meta-cognition than the cognition abilities of an insect (simple environmental learned classification).

Note: My comment does not assert than animals/insects do not have advanced meta-cognition. I'm just saying that the report does not provide evidence of advanced cognition.

tnf wrote:

bitWISE wrote:I have a hard time taking a stance on this. My primary reasoning is that we're the dominant species and we should make use of resources as we want.

Wait what?

That's the reasoning that has fucked us over so many times in the past, and continues to do so today.

We weren't very 'dominant' during the plague.

Well I don't mean overconsumption and a general raping of the planet. But we have survived for millions of years by killing plants and animals not only for food but for clothing or tools or whatever else they might provide. I'm just saying that if we're going to kill them for food, what difference does killing them for any other reason make? Sure, there is the issue of torture but growing up in a cell for the sole purpose of slaughter doesn't seem like paradise either.

Part of me wants to take that stance but part of me also feels wrong when the being becomes more like us. What I don't know is where I personally draw the line between 'usable resource' and friendly neighbor.

TehChozenTwo wrote:I wonder if this news will make us begin experimenting on another animal.

We already do experiment on almost every type of animal. This will change little, if anything...
except, as tnf said, PETA will probably try to run with it.

mik0rs wrote:

Pooinyourmouth wrote:

R00k wrote:Sometimes I've wondered if my dog possessed self cognition from the way he looks at himself in the mirror, moves in the mirror, and looks at me in the mirror.

Silly thing to think about a dog though...

I have a sliding glass back door in my house, and my dog will watch me sneak up oh him in the reflection and turn around just before I can startle him. He seems well aware of his own reflection.

IIRC it's a big dog yeah?

My parents' dog is a little Westie, thick as fuck it is too. I take some guilty pleasure scaring him with his reflection as it's usually him pissing me off with his foot chasing/biting antics.

Oh you have one of those high-pitched, high-strung neurotic, big-eared pieces of white shit in your extended family too, eh?

hax103 wrote:

tnf wrote:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17537590/

I never liked having to kill them during my cancer research. Now I am afraid they knew exactly what was coming every time I showed up at the cage and pulled another one out...heh.

Seriously, though, if this finding continues to gain more support, I wonder if it will have any big impacts on how animal research is conducted.

I'm guessing PETA is going to be arming themselves with this finding.

Just read the article over on sciencedirect.com. Its always disappointing to see the difference between the popular journalistic summary and the real paper. The results of the paper actually do not show any evidence of deeper meta-cognition than the cognition abilities of an insect (simple environmental learned classification).

Note: My comment does not assert than animals/insects do not have advanced meta-cognition. I'm just saying that the report does not provide evidence of advanced cognition.

I don't know, the study seems to give evidence that metacognition exists in rats. Although the experiment design lacks proof-of-principle evidence, and the figures are wrong. :icon26:
Nevertheless, their alternative hypotheses seem to be accounted for on the basis of their p values.

My p values are on the low side today, i might have them looked at later this week.