Quake3World

We (Kristen C. aka 'missbehaving' aka 'fufinha' and Laszlo Menczel aka 'Speaker') have created an improved version of the compatibility package 'z-gpl-q3a2oa-textures.pk3' originally made by Jack Thompson. The purpose of the package is to provide freely distributable (under the GPL) artwork (textures, models, 2D graphics) for the replacement of the original artwork in the official release of Quake III Arena. The package allows Openarena servers to use custom made maps that utilize Q3A textures, models and shaders. In this way the usable map pool is considerably expanded, and classic maps like the ZTN series become available under Openarena.

Note: Although the package was made specifically for Openarena, it's material could also be used (with some modifications) in any Q3A clone game based on ioquake3.

The original package by Jack (latest version was 4) contains uniformly colored block textures and dummy ("do nothing') shaders. With his package running the maps is possible, but the visuals are rather poor. Still, it has been a significant achievement and provided a sound base for further work.

Our aim was to replace the block textures with real ones that resemble the original Q3A textures as much as possible. Since we wanted the textures to be under the GPL, we decided to either obtain/adapt them from other GPLed texture collections, or to create them from scratch.

In the present version the two most important texture groups, 'base' and 'gothic' have been improved. In the 'gothic' group there are no missing textures (i.e. every single Q3A texture has a replacement), in the 'base' group there are still a few of the block textures from Jack's pack present. Some of the new textures are not exact replacements, but all of them strongly resemble (at least in style) the original Q3A textures they intend to replace. The shaders for the 'base' group are all present (extracted from the original Q3A PAKs when necessary). Shaders for the 'gothic' group will be added when the next version is released.

Updated the link for the new version -- Speaker

The new texture pack can be downloaded from the following location:

http://menczel.extra.hu/q3a2oa-textures-v504.zip

We believe that the new textures significantly improve the visuals of custom maps running on Openarena servers. In order to demonstrate the capabilities of the new package, we have made screenshots using the original Q3A deathmatch maps (q3dm1 to q3dm19) running under Openarena. We extracted the BSP and AAS files of these maps into a separate PK3, and added this PK3 as well as the new texture pack to the 'baseoa' folder of an Openarena 0.8.1 install. Here are some of the shots taken using this system:

















The complete set of screenshots can be downloaded here:

http://menczel.extra.hu/q3a2oa-screens.zip

We plan to continue and expand this work and regularly release new versions. If you wish to join our project, please contact Speaker (laszlo DOT menczel AT gmail DOT com).

Damn. Nice work, speaker. How long did it take the two of you?

^misantropia^ wrote:Damn. Nice work, speaker.

Thanks, I appreciate that someone appreciates our work (pun intended). We were not so lucky on the Openarena forum. :-( Topic locked, link removed, admin says that it is no good and practically accuses us of stealing. That's leilol using her usual tactful approach (you may have already heard about the little GPL thumping jerk).

How long did it take the two of you?

We started working on this project around the end of January (this year ).

Well, I've got to agree with leilol (I think he is a guy, actually) on one point:

speaker wrote:The shaders for the 'base' group are all present (extracted from the original Q3A PAKs when necessary).

If that means you plain copied them, you're in the wrong. I can see the point about how there are only so many ways to skin a cat, esp. with a language so limited as the Q3 shader language, but a bit-for-bit copy is infringing copyright. However, if you recreate the shaders from scratch - and you are free to use the stock shaders as an inspiration, there is nothing immoral or illegal about that - you'll be in the clear.

^misantropia^ wrote:Well, I've got to agree with leilol (I think he is a guy, actually)

Are you sure? I mean, do you know this person? All the visible facts point to a female. If he is actually a guy, then something is quite wrong with him.

If that means you plain copied them, you're in the wrong. I can see the point about how there are only so many ways to skin a cat, esp. with a language so limited as the Q3 shader language, but a bit-for-bit copy is infringing copyright. However, if you recreate the shaders from scratch - and you are free to use the stock shaders as an inspiration, there is nothing immoral or illegal about that - you'll be in the clear.

Do you realize how many of my quiet evenings you have just spoiled? I will have to go through all the stupid shaders one by one. Argh! But at least I can use the techniques pioneered by leilol and Co. (slightly change numeric constants, rearrange shader step order, use alternative keywords with different capitalization, etc.).

A technique I can recommend is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

One of you goes through the original shaders and describes in rough outlines how they work. The other uses those notes as a guideline while writing the shaders from scratch. A tad more work but no one will be able to accuse you of copyright infringement.

PS: I really am fairly sure leilol is a guy. He used to post here but was banned or bullied out for being a opinionated douche, IIRC. Not a unique trait to this forum but I digress.

Ah, so this explains your bolshy comment before. The textures look pretty good, although leilol and misanthropia are correct, you cannot reuse id's shaders and you do need to list where the textures came from, if I were in leilol's position I'd have said the same things.

^misantropia^ wrote:A technique I can recommend is this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_room_design

One of you goes through the original shaders and describes in rough outlines how they work. The other uses those notes as a guideline while writing the shaders from scratch. A tad more work but no one will be able to accuse you of copyright infringement.

We are going to do that, thanks for the advice.

@ix-ir:

Ah, so this explains your bolshy comment before.

Would you care to explain what the hell you are talking about? I think you ow me at least that much after making a remark like this.

I found it a little odd that you seemed to attack the PMX project while being involved in your own OpenArena project, calling it a clone while yourself producing a clone. The only implication that seemed to make sense is that you think we should be working on OpenArena as well; as we're using different technology and not sticking close to baseQ3 gameplay this didn't make sense to me.

ix-ir wrote:I found it a little odd that you seemed to attack the PMX project while being involved in your own OpenArena project, calling it a clone while yourself producing a clone. The only implication that seemed to make sense is that you think we should be working on OpenArena as well; as we're using different technology and not sticking close to baseQ3 gameplay this didn't make sense to me.

I am sorry if you felt that I was attacking the PMX project. That was not my intention. The only reason for my post was a genuine concern about the proliferation of (almost) incompatible Q3A clones. And contrary to how it may appear, we are not working to make another clone. We just want to improve Openarena, and it is IMO not our fault that we have to do it quasi independently. leilol is just impossible to cooperate with, nothing is good enough for him (her? I am not sure, but does not matter).

Let's take the example of our new texture pack. OK, I admit that it was the wrong thing to copy the Q3A shaders. But it is a mistake that can be corrected and IMO it is not sufficient justification for immediate and irreversible rejection ('will never ever make it into OA'). The rest of the stuff is original and not too bad (if I may say so ). Quite a few people agree that something like this should be in OA already.

leilol may seem harsh but she is strict about licenses
(also she is not the same person as cheapalert or leilei*, afaict. )

Are you the same person that often changes your screen name?

I changed my avatar for a joke and my screen name. I was banned the next day. I have often praised leilol in the past for having patience and tolerance whilst being harsh.

Seems I was wrong This is not about licenses, this is about control.

Leilol was aware that we were working on textures and I suggested we aligned the work to fit in with OpenArena and it would reduce the workload. There was no response or any kind of support or advise. We continued to work away at them.

I also submitted plasma sounds and rocket sounds which were processed from the original OA sounds. leilol wrote: "THESE ARE QUAKE2 and Q3 SOUNDS".. actually, I even submitted an avi of how I done them.

No evidence, no matter what, would convince leilol to change his mind and be humbled. Banning people from the OA forums does not make things dissapear.

That's really off topic, but back on topic...

Now people can enjoy 1000's of maps from sites like lvlword etc with detail. This was the purpose of creating this pack of textures. No damage done whatsoever.

I think what you did is great. however if its legality is questionable then it is no different than getting quake3 via torrent.

legality ?

All I done was sit for hours with my legal copy of photoshop, 3 file managers on windows xp.... one containing OA textures, one containining Nexiuz textures, the other, looking at the q3 textures, changing the hue/saturation to try get a close match.

Is this why leilol sent you here? To find out how/why we were able to produce quality results without leilols support?

It seems that if anyone submits something better, which leilol has originally sourced, then it is an insult. That's not how a community works. Look at the OA forums. About 90% of my posts are helping/supporting people. Quite simply, leilol wants everything his way.. ask him why pm skins are included in 081 yet the code isn't?

"MINE EYES"

ps: i am 100% sure i can provide desktop avi's of ANY texture that i have done in this pack.. perhaps this will convince your master , I cannot comment on any of the shader/code stuff. thats way out of my league.

As the other perpetrator of the 'crime', let me put here a few remarks.

I have already admitted in a previous post that copying shaders was wrong. I am working on it, so there will be another release soon that is going to be completely legal. In this particular case leilol (and others pointing out the fact) were correct. As far as I am concerned, the case is closed. You or anybody else can sue me if you wish.

What I resent is the shitty way people who disagree with him (her?) are treated on the OA forums. You can never be right and you are supposed to be guilty until proven innocent. And you cannot really prove it because leilol refuses to discuss any matter in a reasonable way. All you get is sneers and ridicule, never an objective reply. If you post some argument that is not to his/her liking, it is removed. Is this the way to settle arguments? No wonder that less and less people care to go there and post messages or contribute work. I am sure not going to.

You can understand that I am angry when -- after spending countless evenings with an image editor to painstakingly create the stuff -- I am accused of being a thief (or a 'scavenger' when leilol is a bit more lenient).

The open source way: if you don't like the project lead or the direction the project is heading, branch it and make it better. Do it right and the users will come, the original project will wither away and you will have your sweet revenge.

missbehaving wrote:legality ?

All I done was sit for hours with my legal copy of photoshop, 3 file managers on windows xp.... one containing OA textures, one containining Nexiuz textures, the other, looking at the q3 textures, changing the hue/saturation to try get a close match.

Is this why leilol sent you here? To find out how/why we were able to produce quality results without leilols support?

I am not blaming you. it is "if ... then .." a conditional. and no one sent me here, I am just warning you about the issues you may encounter.

^misantropia^ wrote:The open source way: if you don't like the project lead or the direction the project is heading, branch it and make it better. Do it right and the users will come, the original project will wither away and you will have your sweet revenge.

Since it is not essential that our contribution is officially added to Openarena, I adopted the 'don't care' approach. As long as people can get and use our texture pack, it does not matter to me what the OA development team may or may not do. In a somewhat less polite form: They can stuff it up.

Hi,

Version 5.04 of the Q3A texture pack for Openarena (and other ioquake3 based games) is ready for download. The copyright issue discussed in previous posts has been corrected, all offending material have been removed from the package. A 'credits' file stating the source of material used in the construction of (some of) the textures has been added. The package can be downloaded from the following location:

http://download.tuxfamily.org/openarena ... s-v504.zip

Please, update your PK3 and delete the previous flawed version from your HDD.

There will probably be no new release for a while. Our next task is the creation of exact replacement textures to eliminate the approximate ones used in the present package. This may take a fairly long time.

We request that if you find _any_ problem or error (like missing or strange looking textures) while using this package, please, let us know ASAP (contact info is in the README). We need user feedback to make the package better.

Good work, good work. Maybe try submitting it to OA one more time. Even if you wouldn't piss on leilol to put out a fire, it's still nice if the work you slaved on is actually put to use, n'est ce pas?

@epicgoo: cheapalert was the guy I was thinking of. This confusion isn't a new phenomenon, apparently - look what I found through Google: http://3dfxdev.blogspot.com/2008/01/ira ... eilol.html

And really, how many chicks do you know that dig furry porn?

I see that epicgoo is now banned 'apparently'. did you change your screen name and leilol banned you, like me? Strange that it is an enabled forum feature and you have been changing your name frequently..

look, your just below me on this ss, how cute



And after clicking on these links, that is the same leilol. Not long ago leilol mentioned that the 'club nub' forum is something that he/she done previously on other boards... and that other boards admin is cheapy (whatever it is) which also has a club nub forum.

But nevermind. I only checked latest posts to see what was happening. So nothing much has changed, I can still see the posts yet I will spend less replying to help requests, as most of my posts were just that.

haha I wasn't banned until changing my name to ban.
anyway I made a research and ^misantropia^ is right. all clues lead to leilei's moddb account and it is the same as cheapalert's account (search the site for cheapalert and you get forum posts by leilei all edited by cheapalert)
my conclusion is leilei, leileilol, leilol, and cheapalert are the same guy(and not a she!).

+++ Speaker's Pictures presents: +++

+++ The Chronicles of Leilol +++

+++ Starring: leilol aka leilei aka leileilol aka [insert arbitrary permutations of 'lei' and 'lol' here] +++

+++ A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away... +++


Oops, wrong theme. Anyway, I thought that I would share with you the latest gem I have found on the Openarena forum today. It is relevant to my original post in this thread, otherwise I would not bother.

What happened was that 'vindimy' started a thread entitled 'leilol stifles contribution?' on the OA forum. They argued it for a while, you can find the proceedings on the OA forum 'General discussion'. At one point he questioned leilol's decision to remove the link to our texture pack from my original post on the OA forum. I tried to warn the guy that it was IMO a waste of time, nothing was going to change. So I got banned from the forums (not only from posting, but I could not even read what was said).

NP, my dear leilei, maybe you are not aware that there is this little thingy called anonymous proxy. So I found out that leilol tried to justify the bans (I am not the only one banned because of posts not to his/her liking). I am not going to quote the whole post (you can go there and read it), but I thought that this beautiful paragraph may be interesting to you (everybody needs a little amusement sometimes):

Speaker though was just ejected for stirring up fear and drama elsewhere and trying to connect me to a unrelated racist furry coming from a theory of a consistently banned thief who scavenges copyrighted material to make games exploiting other registered trademarks without authorization. Oh the ironing.

ROFL. This is a VERBATIM copy, including all grammatical and spelling errors. 'elsewhere' is probably this forum, but I am at a loss who the 'unrelated racist furry' might be, not to mention the 'consistently banned thief'. I am particularly baffled by the term 'ironing'. Who is going to iron what or whom? Please, help me! I am offering a full case of virtual beer to the first person who is able to provide a cohesive translation of this gibberish (this voucher may be converted to real beer if the person ever happens to come to Hungary ).

+++ The Chronicles of Leilol +++
+++ Part 2 +++


You have three guesses about what happened to the 'leilol stifles contribution?' thread on the OA forum. Well, your first guess is right: it has been deleted. My original post about the GPL texture pack has also been removed. This is the work of our beloved Fuhrer (aka leilol, chief administrator of the OA forums) hastily covering his/her tracks. Probably realized that it would have been very embarrassing to him/her if interested outsiders had read the posts intended for domestic consumption by his/her flock. (Damn this stupid 'he/she' s##t! I will have to find something shorter before my fingers fall off. )

Speaker's Pictures regrets to announce that the planned further episodes of the 'Chronicles' are canceled. We are sorry if you are disappointed. Go and watch Star Trek instead!