Quake3World

Hi everybody,

I am new to the whole subject of mapping.
What I have here is a map that I started as a playground/testing map to see how Radiant works, but somehow it became a halfway playable map.

What I am looking for right now is input on the gameplay aspect of the map, to see if it is worth "making it beautiful" or if i should just start on a new map and scrap this one.

Known issues:
- Texturing (almost nonexistant)
- Lighting, some areas are too dark
- A few of the items are "sunk into the ground", only noticed that when i played with simple items on another pc
- Probably tons of rookie mistakes :-)

So, can someone give me a little feedback?

Thanks in advance,
Rane2k

Link to pk3 file:
http://rapidshare.com/files/228769044/radm1_alpha.pk3
Edit: Forgot to mention, the map is called radm1, despite the pk3 filename.

Sample Screenshots:
[lvlshot]http://img233.imagevenue.com/loc167/th_74818_radm1_alpha_1_small_122_167lo.jpg[/lvlshot]
Larger: http://img233.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... _167lo.jpg

[lvlshot]http://img266.imagevenue.com/loc469/th_74824_radm1_alpha_2_small_122_469lo.jpg[/lvlshot]
Larger: http://img266.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... _469lo.jpg

[lvlshot]http://img168.imagevenue.com/loc41/th_74826_radm1_alpha_3_small_122_41lo.jpg[/lvlshot]
Larger: http://img168.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... 2_41lo.jpg

Hi Rane2k! Welcome to the forums and thanks for joining :]

You really have a nice map there, considering it's your first endeavour with mapping and it being a result of fooling around with radiant. Actually, its very impressive in my opinion.

Sure, there are a couple of things that would make it less playable compared to other, succesful maps. But they can be adjusted. If you feel like taking this level to a new alpha, then there's absolutely no reason for not doing so! It's definitely worth to see what you can make of this. You've already got some original features in the map and the overal size and scale seem just about right for a good map.

A couple of tips:

There is something called a '2-way rule' for Arcade FPS levels like those of quake. What this means is that it is best to avoid dead ends, as well as providing the players with the opportunity to chose where they go, rather than directing their behaviour by having linear paths.

Take your hovering platforms near one end of the map for example. If I may be so rude as to reduce them to the following symbols :
each of the strokes represent a platform of your level, now compare it with this:
now players can go from left to right, just like in the first example, but there's more routes. Players crave freedom!


Also, try to see all the pickup items as though they were part of a hierarchy. Some are more important or stronger than others. These will atract more players and 'should' thus be placed at more central points. Besides this, It's not a good idea to have a multitude of strong items close to eachother; this will weaken the flow of the level as there's a reduced need to travel througout the entire map.

Practicaly, it is probably a good idea to have the Red armor and Grenade launcher switch places. Currently the red armor is somewhat hidden, and the grenade launcher is at a prominend place, but at a dead end. Now, in this case, since it's not really a path that leads to the grenade launcher, its not quite a dead end that you would want to avoid, its actualy quite desirable in some cases. For example, if you had the RA where the GL is now, players would be attracted to it but at the same time, if they go and get it, are very exposed to danger as their route is predictible and room for movement is sparse. Also on items, most players prefer them to be in the center of a path, or at least very near the path they would ordinarily follow when going from A-B. Items placed near edges or corners of an area can be frustrating. This is most true for the essentials such as weapons and armors. For ammo and health bubbles, it's less important.

You could call this a rule too, the stronger the item, the more risk should be involved in getting it.

I'm calling em rules, but it's actualy more of a pattern - they have been applied very often and they work very well, but not following them on every single thing you make will make a level even more interesting.

If you want the gameplay to be great, then don't worry about lighting and texturing yet. Focus on gameplay and only on that untill you are satisfied with it, only add details and impressive texture information afterwards. This will save you a lot of time since you won't be switching between 'activities' so often, and it limits the risk that you'll have to throw away some details because you want to, say, break open a wall or floor to adjust the gameplay. Or, on the other hand, if you have detail in some place, but you feel like there should actualy be an opening instead - you'll be tempted to leave it as it is since you already put so much time in it.

It's a good idea to think about a graphical style though, as it may also inspire you to use some structural forms that affect the map's boundaries and thus the gameplay. Also, and more importantly for aestetics: it will add more harmony to your map if you do, as ceirtain visual patterns will be the same or at least related on micro and macro level. But it seems like you're already doing that... It feels a bit Gaudi-like to me, in some places :]







BTW: I'm missing the texture for the teleport surfaces, it may be that you are using textures from another custom level (or my installation is b0rked). In that case you should extract the specific files for this texture (and accompaniing shader), and include them into your own pk3. However, be sure to use a different folder name for your files, so there won't be any duplicate files on installations which already do have that textures. Also, when you do this, try to discover who has made the texture and shader, and include the author's name in your readme file in a 'thankyou' list.

Again, it's definitely worth to continue working on this, though it never hurts to start all over again and come up with something else. Do as you please! (but be sure to keep us updated!)

Hello corsair,

Thank you for the detailed reply!

Regarding the "2-way-rule": That is actually the reason I included the floating platforms first, i didn´t want to have the Railgun in a dead end, with the bridge being the only way back. (Okay, and i wanted jump-n-run-style platforms :-P).
But you are correct, i am rather unsatisfied with the way they turned out, the spacing is strange (didnt manage to strafe-jump them all in one go yet) and the path feels too long.
However, there are actually a few (risky) ways to jump off of the path to other parts of the map: (starting from Railgun)
Platform 1: strafejump to 25-health
Platform 2&3: strafejump to Plasmagun
Platform 4: drop to lower teleporter

@Item Hierarchy: I´m aware of this, however, I found it quite difficult to distribute the items on the map in a way that doesn´t make one area overpowered compared to others.
I have considered switching the red and yellow armors. (YA is dangerous to get, with only the climb back up and the lower teleporter as escape routes, might not be worth it for a YA)
The red armor was placed in this position to force players to go to the lower part of the map, or take the way out over the ramps, where they are in a weak position.
I think switching GL and RA could possibly make the platform with the rocket launcher a bit too strong. (quick access to railgun via teleporter, RA near in a stronger position and the escape route through the lower part (and the plasmaclimb to the LG path, its fun to build in secrets like that *g*))
However, i will take it into consideration, the argument that the RA is hidden is valid and was brought up by a friend already.

@Items on paths: Agreed, i suppose you were talking mainly about the ammo boxes (all of them i think), and maybe the Plasmagun. I think i did that because i played quite a bit of QL TDM/CTF lately, where it annoys me to no end when fresh spawners grab all the ammo boxes they don´t need because they are in the middle of the path. :-)
However, as this is supposed to be a FFA/Duel style map, I will move the ammo boxes closer to the main paths.
Any other items that you think need repositioning?

@Teleporter texture: Ah, yes, it is the "swirling dots" from the Quake 1 teleporters, might have been included in one of my downloaded maps, i will include it in the next version of the pk3.

@Consistent visual style: Yes, having some kind of "theme" is probably a good idea when going to building a new map, a problem here is that I am the kind of person that sometimes becomes a slave to such themes. For example I recently started a pyramid-themed map as a tribute to an old Videogame called "Zombies ate my Neighborhood", if anyone remembers that, theres a level called "Pyramid of Fear". After i made the first 5 or 6 rooms and a bit of exterior i noticed that i was just building the map out of the desire to make a pyramid map, with no plan on how the gameplay would flow in that map.
Result: the map is shelved for now, until I have better ideas that might fit the theme without building a room-hallway-room-hallway-room map.

By the way, what is "gaudi-like"?:-)

One other question:
What is the general consensus on "useless" parts of a map, e.g. rooms/passages that serve (almost) no gameplay purpose, contain no items, are not superior positions (e.g. hills/towers/etc.).
It´s hard to describe what i mean, so here´s a screenshot, i have one such area in my map:
[lvlshot]http://img267.imagevenue.com/loc22/th_07142_radm1_alpha_4_marked_122_22lo.jpg[/lvlshot]
Larger: http://img267.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... 2_22lo.jpg

The green lines are the normal paths, the red ones mark the "optional" area.
At the moment, it is only accessible via one spawnpoint (wanted it not too much in the open) and via an unpractical jumping maneuver from the Megahealth tower.
Obviously, such areas are nice for Rocket Arena style gameplay, but are they okay in a normal FFA/Duel style map?


Anyway, thanks again for the feedback, and sorry if i rambled on a bit, its 5 AM here and i can´t sleep. :-)

P.S.: Tomorrow I´ll try to get a few duels with a buddy on the map going, to see how it plays out in a duel.
Oh, and there´s already another map in the pipeline, i´m ripe with ideas at the moment. :-)

If an area is useless, then you should keep them out. Your example doesn't have such an area, as you describe there is a reason behind its presence that does affect the posibilities of a game. Camping is one of the area's uses, if you dont want that to happen, then leave it out. (safe spawn places are a good thing imo, but it's rather weird if 1 of them is safe whereas others are just normal)

I don't have any other suggestions on item placement, just think of them as a tool to keep players moving. Besides that, the best item's should be the toughest to guard.

guadi-like? looking from the open area's of your map, towards the side where you have higher structures - a part of this structure, on the left, there are a couple of pillars and butresses, they reminded me of some of Guadi's buildings characteristics for their unsual, irregular but gentle shape

About the trickjumping/shortcuts and such. Dont add them just because they're fun or challenging - they should effectively lead to something - otherwise it'd be useless to chose to perform a jump like that. Mby some players do like to risk their digital quake life on a jump that doesn't hold any gain for them, but that would be a bit silly.

Ah, yes, should have checked wikipedia for gaudi. :-)
I was just a little confused, the word "Gaudi" in german is a dialect word for "fun" or "hilarity", threw me off a little.
Yes, i got a bit carried away on the higher part of the structures in the back of the map, experimenting with different shapes and curves.

About the trickjumps: The jump to the "safe" area was not added deliberately, i found it after i built the area. Haven´t made up my mind on the safe area yet, maybe i will clip it off or block it entirely, some test games will tell me more (still haven´t had the opportunity to test the map yet.)


Anyway, i have a new alpha version ready, and i have also uploaded it on my server, in case any of you want to grab a friend and try the map. :-)

New pk3: http://rapidshare.com/files/232281249/radm1_alpha2.pk3
Server address: 94.75.248.74:27960 (Amsterdam, Netherlands), PW: r2kprivate

Changes:
+ New skybox (Based on resident poster Hipshot´s "Stormy Days", taken from the Quake3Arena skybox collection available on LVLWorld)
+ Floating platforms replaced with something more reasonable, for less awkward movement, more connectivity
+ Moved several items to more comfortable positions, nearer to the main movement paths
+ Fog in the lower part of the map removed
+ Started retexturing

Known issues:
- Caulk still visible in some of the newly constructed parts
- Lighting, some areas are too dark
- Retexturing not finished