Quake3World

well, i've put together a new map layout, i would be interested in what you guys think. this is very early on, no texture choices etc, just a bare bones layout with an attempt at an item config. bots play quite well... but i really never know as im not that experienced with q3 as i don't ever get to play humans :/

feed back would be cool, enjoy and thanks for ya time in advance

images:






and the file : http://www.filefront.com/14609667/Temp01.zip


i've got another map in the works which i've been working on the last few weeks, but im gonna get feedback on this first as i'm a little bored of that other map as its just a remake (well just the layout) of an id map

link has been updated, forgot txt for credits and added a few other little things. my bad

The template texture set already gives the map a very interesting surreal feeling, and the lighting pretty much there, cool!

The layout is very clever and intricate, and I am sure it has huge potential. I cannot put the finger on it, but somehow it does not work yet, maybe it's the large size of the map, maybe it's the bots that massively congregate around the Haste, making the rest of the map sorta redundant. The arenas are interesting, but you rarely actually get into real fights there.

Some suggestions:

• IMO, the AP used to slam you into the floating haste is not such a good gimmick. 1. The bots don't get it, literally. They never use the AP. 2nd, and this is even worse the bots constantly try to grab the Haste by going up the ramps. This is probably the main reason the bots' logic in this map is messed up. Most bots seem to have a high priority to get the Haste but simply cannot. I'd suggest deleting the AP, and to place the Haste on the floor instead.
• The map is rather large, IMO, 4 bots are not enough, even with 6 bots (I added Hunter and Daemia), the map still was empty most of the time. But this is probably due to the previous issue. Presently there are no real battles between the player and the bots, in most areas of the map. Hope this can be fixed.
• The TP destination, way above one arena, forcing a player drop on exit, which is - sorry to say this - really annoying, and IMO, useless. I'd suggest either a better destination, or delete the TP completely.
• Near the Haste you have a JP leading up to a platform with only some ammo up there. Some extra health, IMO, would help. Plus, I'd use the red respawn niche in the wall, and connect it via ramps to the arena you can see through the window. On can jump out of the window, but it still feels like a useless dead end up there, IMO.
• The two APs that catapult you to the upper RL, would be a bit more "logical" if they were angled (rotation round z-axis), by about 30-45°. It's weird to expect a forward push, but get thrown sideways this strongly.
• Since the upper RL (2 APs) is also a dead end platform, it might be better to put the RG here, and place the RL elsewhere. I am not really sure about your 2 AP here... IMO, it might be more fun to have one AP on each side of the arena, one near the and the other one on the RL platform, on different sided.
• The bots seem to hate the water you placed the MedKit in. They never seem to go for it... strange.
• Did you place a MH or a RA in the map? IMO, those would be better than the Medkit and Haste. Though personally I am a Quad fan . But since the map is larger a Haste should be OK, but please think about MH and RA.
• You may want to place the JP destinations about 8u higher, for a bit of extra "fun bounce", and something seems to be wrong with the JP destination near the RG, the bots have trouble reaching the upper area.
• As you are probably quite aware the RL is a primary focus for the bots, you tried to spread that out by adding two RLs. I think before anything can be said about the overall weapon placement the issue with the floating Haste has to be fixed. Hopefully that is indeed the issue. You are running the aas compile with -optimize, right?

Hope that helps... as mentioned, interesting layout, that may need some tweaking to make it really good. Obviously, there is a learning process here, I am still trying to understand the map layout.

BTW: I am desperately looking for good pipe textures (color coded), and noticed your q3dmp11 has such textures. Would it be OK for me to use your main yellow texture and possibly the red/blue tube textures?

P.S. Comments related to your first upload, looking at then 2nd upload now.

Everyone's using those textures now? =)
I'll try the level.

About the updated pk3:

• Bots seem to play a bit better. Still think you need at least 6 bots in the map.
• Not sure about your respawn points, but one in the upper part of the TP arena would help.
• The spiral ramp connecting the lower TP arena area with the upper, might need a JP, to speed up that area a bit. Presently you spawn at the foot of the TP (at least two PSs = Player Spawns in that arena on the lower floor) - it takes quite some time to get to the LG and the YA up there.
• The PS (red niche) left of the TP, is clipped. Bots cannot exit it and get stuck.
• The new larger TP destination platform is a *lot* better, lets you actually choose to jump into the window nearby, neat!
• I like the new passage behind the upper RL, that improved the game flow. Now place one of the APs on the RL platform, and you can run the path on the upper level in both directions, please .
• IMO, the exit of new RL corridor, leading to the TP arena (IIRC), could use a JP, letting the player go up the ramps to then directly visit the upper RL platform via "back door".
• The Haste really seems to be the central bot focus, together with the RL on the floor, this over-concentrates the gameplay here. Maybe move the Haste elsewhere, and put a MH where the Haste presently is.
• About the Quad ... might be nice to put it on the large box right under the LG, adding some botclip to let the bots "slide" onto the box so that they pick up the Quad as well.

Again, hope this helps.

General comment... as it is always when finding paths, the point will come when you will need to reevaluate all the paths, locate those that are fun to use, and look "good", to then check if some of the other paths are not actually deluding the gameflow, i.e. those would then be removed, or "condensed".

go for it AEon. i've added a bit more connectivity and fixed the haste

give me a few sec hipshot and i'll upload the new version after a quick round

ok updated link: http://www.filefront.com/14610369/Temp01.zip

wait... how did you play an update... with out an update? hmmmm crazy

Well the first file was a pk3 only... and that was the first run, then you updated the link to a different zip file that was the second test I did. Latest test coming up later

Some quick notes...

• Maybe update the arena file for 6 bots... the map now works a lot better, the 2xAP arena's lower level is the new center of bot-play now it seems.
• The dead end behind the GL column had me thinking as well. The new hole in the map is a nifty way to get the TP exit's new MH.
• The idea to place health on the ramps, already done in the 2xAP arena, works well, motivates the bots and the player to actually use those ramps.
• The bots still prefer to play on the lowest level of the map... wonder why that is. E.g. in SolarAE they actually use all levels really well. It could be you have the same issue I had in AEcantw2... too many paths, leading to the use of only a few. Hmmm... will require more thought.
• The "dropped" Haste (to the floor) certainly seems to help, the bots are no longer "locked" to the Haste/RL area.
• You added these corner "platforms" in passages with YA on them... IMO, it might be visually less "brutal" to lower them to half their height. The bots seems to avoid them, maybe the ramps on both sides are thought to be too steep or something.
• On "almost" redundant paths. When you take the new GL back path, you no longer need to take the around the corner corridor to get down to the SG, you grab the MH then simply dump down from the upper GL. Maybe some of the 180° corridors with ramps leading up, may no longer be required... just musing, this also takes some more thought.
• I'd love if you would add some windows to the map... the present view to the sky is already neat... I love that skybox.

I'll take a closer look at the .map file. Maybe I can come up with something useful...

P.S.: Funny to see you already have added things I either later mentioned or was about to mention .
P.P.S.: Thanks for letting me use your textures, will put them to good use in AEcantw2, I hope.

seriously helpful, thanks heaps. yeah that path on the right which goes from gren plat and runs around 180 to shot gun really should be removed.

heh, not bad for a days work.

Presently watching F1 in Singapore on TV... something I want to experiment with, as a test, is the compacting of the map, i.e. make the relevant area density higher, by reducing "too long" paths and possibly changing the angled corridors.

I should be working on AEcantw2... sigh... I am soo lazy

Strangely I seem to think like the bots, or probably somewhat the way the programmers at id thought creating them. Implemented a few changes to the map, adding paths I thought would really help, and they actually did. The bots now *really* play most of the map. Here a screenshot of the changes:

• 

I am using a red colored version of Evillair's orange template textures to make it clear were things were changed.

Changes:

• Swapped the RG with the upper RL.
• The two AP's in the (now) RG room, are no longer on the same side, but one on eath side of the room, allowing fast two-way gameflow. One original AP turned into a cushioned "landing pad".
• I never really liked the way you could walk up to the ramps trying to pick up the Haste, and felt the AP slamming you into the wall was not much fun. Deleted the AP, placed a PS (Player Spawn) in that wall instead. I then extended the ramp right up with a bridge, now leading into one of the angled 180° corridors. The corridor now has a central meaning as a new hub.
• The JP in the Haste room is now angled, and indented into the wall a bit, making it clearer where the player will be cast to.
• The JP destination points have all been elevated a bit, ensuring the bots and the player can reach the upper level at all times.
• Added another shortcut path to the new corridor hub from the far corner JP platform, with skyview in the ceiling.
• Added a Quad on the upper floor of the TP arena.
• Exiting the RG platform, the new corridor leading into the TP arena, now has a JP at the end of the path. This way you can reach the RG via "back door" path directly.
• Large box in TP arena now sports a 25H, blotclipped a "slide" to make it accessible to the bots from the LG.
• The "corner ramps" (two) near the Haste and one going to the TP arena, are half their previous height and with less steep ramps. The bots *now* love them and use them.
• Note: The GL wall blocking the view from the RG to the GL platform, was now made structural for possible later vis blocking.

Todo:

• The other 180° corridor, will give the player another path into the TP arena, that is still "pretty much" dead. Hopefully the connection helps that area.
• I love the GL arena, the new RG area with the two APs, and also the Haste room - I used to not like. I am still not happy with the TP arena, and the long corridors leading to the RG arena. Maybe these can be "funned up" a bit.

Not sure if I should be releasing the pk3 to this map, after all this is fDk's map, and I am only experimenting with possible gameplay paths here. Anyway, I am having a *lot* of fun with this map .

P.S.: The map really reminds me of the Marble Madness on the Amiga. Good times.

wanna chuck us that .map file over so i can have a look

I you are OK with releasing the pk3, I'll certainly add the .map file as well, or I'd just send you the .map directly.

BTW: What -light compile parameters for q3map2 do you use. My "default" lighting compile seems to be a bit too saturated.

i think i went with
bsp -samplesize 8
vis normal
light -super 2

no real tricks or nothing

i've implemented most of ya changes, and ya right its playing way better. still need to get items right... but that just takes time added a few other things as well, started making window ideas and added a door on the gl platform... and a few other things. i'll post a pk3 in a bit. post the .map in ya pk3 on here. i'm not fussed if anyone else wants to take a look

I'm too slow ... I created a new passage room for the Quad between the old RG corridor and the TP area. Also added windows. Will be interesting to see if I have been able to think in your style or not. Upping bsp and map soon.

Temp01 - AEon's Experimental Edit r10

• 

Changes to latest version:

• Added a passage from the RG area to the to the TP arena, on an upper level. This way you can stay on the upper level and circle the complete map. Passage room with skylight and window. Room is too dark though... hmmm.
• Added more windows near the RL, the PG, and the LG.
• Closed the hole in the TP arena's upper floor, you'd fall into it coming from the new Quad location.
• Issue with the PS in the TP arena fixed hopefully, just reduced the volume under the ramps.
• Bots should pick up the Medkit.
• PK3 includes the red texture of course, if you want to turn all the textures to their orange counterpart, the do a search and replace on the .map file in a text/programmer's editor, replace "_red" with nothing.
• Of course the changed .map is included.
• Compiled with your light settings.

Download:

• • temp01_q3w_ae10.zip (2.62 MB) @ hugelaser.com
    (Install: Unpack the .zip into your baseq3\ folder, run the map via in-game skirmish button.)

fKd, thanks for the 2-day fun...

no, thank you man, great ideas, im gonna add almost all of what ya did, txt credit where credit is due now to work on getting the items in the right places...

Just played the bots.. those b*st*rds are actually starting to kick my b*tt... those ungrateful, good for nothing, ...

IMO, the Quad room path works rather well, the bots love using this new path. Obviously it would be nicer in your style, I was out of ideas. Also I'd love to see more of your cut off edges design in the map, e.g. like you did around the JP to the RL (PG arena).

Alas, none of the bots pick up the Medkit... probably you need to pick another bot that actually goes for that pickup. Looked into the bot item priorities for the powerups:

• Doom: Quad 400 (others 40)
  Angel: All 40
  Gorre: All 40
  Anarki: Enviro 400, Invis 200, rest 10

That's pretty much what I noted, Doom loves the Quad ...

Bad news, the highest priority for the Medkit *is* 40... bots don't seem to like that item that much. You might like to use another powerup instead:

• Invisibility using Anarki / Bones / Crash (200).
• Regen with Sarge (400) / Klesk (200).
• Enviro with Anarki / Bones / Crash / Stripe (400).

Interestingly your bots do not have a high priority (40 usually) for Haste... hmmm.

where did you get those figures? would be really helpful in choosing bots.

i've been working away and will post a new pk3 in a bit. its just recompiling as i type.

fKd wrote:where did you get those figures? would be really helpful in choosing bots.

Quake3\baseq3\pak0.pk3\botfiles\bots\anarki_i.c all the files with the _i in the name. Just noted id updated some entries in the pak4.pk3 (more bot files). I am not really sure, but adding a copy of those files in your pk3, and changing them, should already be enough to tweak the bots. Trying that out for Angle.

Update: Just changed the Medkit priority from 40 to 400 for Angel, placed the file in the pk3 (temp01_q3w_ae10.pk3\botfiles\bots\angel_i.c), and bingo the Medkit gets picked up almost every time Angel respawns in the TP arena. Neat!

I downloaded Aeon's pak file to see what the latest changes are and it is nice figure 8 layout, but with Aeon's changes you can see from one side of the map to the other, not good for vising/hinting. Stand next to the speed powerup, go up the ramp and then turn upwards and that line of sight is right across the map. I am sure someone can hint/vis it, but at this stage of development why create crazy hinting problems for later.

Also the teleporter will link areas together regardless of how much hinting you do, don't link the MH to a teleporter, leave it as a drop down jump from the GL platform and maybe a hop-skip-cpm jump up from the PG instead. Personally I am not too keen on the quad area, it feels like a maze of short corridors and small rooms when most of the action should be in the core figure 8 central areas. The RG on that high platform is screaming 'camp me' which is never good with that weapon. Also put weapons and items towards the walls (never in doorways) so the player has a choice to pickup items or not. The small doughnut area where the GL lives is not wide enough to hint both arenas properly, you will need more space, again a hint/vis pitfall.

@sock
Also thought that the MH on TP exit is making it a tad too easy. This is also an issue with the bots, they exit the TP area most of the time directly via TP, because the "know" a MH is on the other side. So the MH elsewhere is better.

Noted those long line of sight issues as well. There are quite a few of those... Haste-Bridge-SG-RL-room, the long corridors YA-RG-room-25H-corner. Also agree about the GL wall... it should actually work pretty well (barely), but could be made wider. I.e. you actually walk around a wider wall, for natural vis blocking.

Quad area... hmmm... yeah... IMO the connection idea per se works and is good, but the short corridors, not so much...

Alas the bots seem to love the RG area, a bit too much, presently. Lots of vertical action here, and much use of the JP and both APs... hilarious gameplay, but it concentrated the bots too much here. It would be nice if there was more action in the PG/GL arena. IMO the most beautiful part of the map.