[FINAL] Derwyll's Castle 2 - MANY THANKS

Discussion for Level editing, modeling, programming, or any of the other technical aspects of Quake
Noruen
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:45 pm

[FINAL] Derwyll's Castle 2 - MANY THANKS

Post by Noruen »

Hi players!

I have already finished my CTF map and I need some testers, because my friends are not playing Q3 anymore and there is no respond from downloaders :(

Just please test it and write a comment down there.

Thank you and enjoy! ;)

Link: http://www.map-factory.org/quake-3/ctf- ... astle-1804

Edit: I forgot! There are some images ;)

Image
Image
Last edited by Noruen on Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:48 pm, edited 12 times in total.
Zyte
Posts: 888
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2003 7:00 am

Re: CTF map testing - please help

Post by Zyte »

This will probably get more feedback in LEM.
Johnny Law
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Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 8:00 am

Re: CTF map testing - please help

Post by Johnny Law »

It depends on if you want actual you-should-change-this sort of feedback, or if you are simply asking for review comments to be posted to that map-factory site.
Noruen
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:45 pm

Re: CTF map testing - please help

Post by Noruen »

Zyte - I am sorry (and thanks), Im totally blind. Can some moderator move this topic to level editing section please? Thanks.

Johnny Law - I want both. Comments and "what to change". I hoped for little bit more respond, but nobody is responding so I'm doing it this way on this forum.
obsidian
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:00 am

Re: CTF map testing - please help

Post by obsidian »

I don't have much time to give it a play test today, but I did download it and took a quick look.

Visually this is actually really cool. Lots of interesting things to look at and I like the overall theme.

A few issues, for a CTF map, it looks as if this one only has a single entry point between the red and blue bases, so it's easy for defenders to sit around the teleportal exit and spam anything that pops out of it. I suggest having 2 or 3 different entry points into the base.

For most CTF maps, there is usually a middle ground as well which can be contested for possession of the map. The typical layout is Red Base - Middle Area - Blue Base.

You have to be a little more selective with item placements, you have too many crates and health scattered about. Q3 is about movement and preventing people from camping around, so I suggest spreading things around to promote the players from standing around on a particular spot.

Also a bit of inconsistency with clips. Some parts are clipped off to prevent the player from falling down and others are open. It's hard to know what parts are safe and unsafe. If there is a place where you don't want people falling down, build some kind of wall or rock to prevent them from doing so.

Lastly, compiling an .aas for bots would be a good idea.
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Pat Howard
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Pat Howard »

Wow! This has to be one of the coolest looking maps I've ever seen! This is incredible - really artistic. Do you have any other maps I could see?

It can be tough for some people to test a map without bot support. I'd try to include an AAS file. Use -fixaas if you have to. I can link you to some reading material if you need it.

Also, your skybox, while very cool, is not seamless. It has some slight differences in color that allow you to see the actual "cube" being formed. Look at the planet to see what I mean. I also think you might want to choose a different color for the planet. All that blue could cause some confusion when trying to figure out what base you're in.

You could use some better bouncer shaders. They seem a bit out of place currently. And the stone bounce pads are slightly transparent? That's really weird.

Some places need extra lighting. It took me a while to find the RA lava tunnel that goes up through the middle of the mountain.

I agree with everything obsidian said. The map especially needs work on the teleporters. They feel as though they were tacked on at the end to create some gameplay in a largely disconnected map. First, I'd say you need more than one TP link between the two bases. And second, try to fit them into the theme even more. The TP that links the bases looks cool and definitely feels like "part of the map" to me, but the ones that are just arches are a bit odd. If you're going to have a map that relies this heavily on TPs for its gameplay, you'll want to spend time on them. Make them memorable and believable.

Thanks for sharing,
-pat
Noruen
Posts: 308
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Noruen »

Teleporters - Well, you're right. My first idea was, that only one entrace will make teams need to work together. But not every idea is a good idea. So I promise I will add two more teleporters - very soon :)

This situation grows from original idea - both castles should be in one big area, but when I try it, engine was making a lot of errors - simply I reached the limit for maps - too much details. So I split them into two areas and I added only one teleport for reasons i wrote upper. I will fix it...

And I probably do not understand you correctly. You think, that the "entrace" teleporter is good, but other teleporters in base are outstanding because of their design? Well.. another design challenge :)

Item placement - OK :) less health and ammo crates and more default ammo in weapons. Do you think I should "change" this map also for TEAM ARENA? Originally I wanted to, but it seemd to me all players play only "classic CTF" not that with Scouts, Guards, Doublers and Ammo-regens.

Problem with clips and bots - Yes I think you mean clip behind the trees in "back land"? Its because of bots. They are really stupid - I wanted to calculate AAS file, but BSPC said: "Error: MAX_MAPFILE_PLANES". Maybe too complex geometry, I must fix it, but it needs a lot of time, so one day... Please Pat Howard, are you able to put there these links you were taking about? It will really help me :)

Skybox - I know. I made a mistake during creating of pk3 file and I put into package old version of skybox but I don't registered it during my "final test" just before realising. And about the clouds and planet - its problem, only neutral color is gray... But I can try it.

Bounce pads - yes, they are transparent for other transparent shaders and I absolutely don't know how to fix it. I tried everything...

Light - yes, you're right. And maybe map is little too dark, isn't?

Thank you. I will try to do something with your suggestions but I will be anyway still thankful for more suggestions. And in next post less chatty :)
obsidian
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by obsidian »

It's fairly easy to change up TA elements with basic CTF. You can team items together so a TA chaingun spawns on a spot but then spawns the plasmagun in normal CTF.

Found your bouncepad shader problem. You don't want the first stage to be transparent otherwise it will show stuff behind it and you'll end up with odd sorting issues. 6 stages is generally a little much on processing so people on older computers may find it a bit of a performance hit.

Code: Select all

textures/noruen_sfx/jp_red_circle
{
	qer_editorimage textures/noruen_sfx/AcJP.tga
	surfaceparm nodamage
	q3map_lightimage textures/sfx/jumppadsmall.tga	
	q3map_surfacelight 400
	{
		map textures/noruen_sfx/AcJPstripes2Red.tga	//round stripes
		//blendfunc gl_one gl_one    <------- ***** REMOVE ME!!! ******
		tcmod rotate 24
		rgbGen identity
	}
	{
		map textures/noruen_sfx/AcJPstripes1Red.tga	//round stripes
		blendfunc gl_one gl_one
		tcmod rotate -16
		rgbGen identity
	}
        {
	        map textures/noruen_sfx/AcJP.tga		//basic texture with alpha
		blendFunc GL_SRC_ALPHA GL_ONE_MINUS_SRC_ALPHA
	        rgbGen identity
	}
	{
		map $lightmap
		rgbGen identity
                blendFunc GL_DST_COLOR GL_ONE_MINUS_DST_ALPHA
	}
	{
		map textures/noruen_sfx/AcJPlightRed.tga
		blendfunc gl_one gl_one
		rgbGen wave sin .5 .5 0 1.5	
	}
	{
		clampmap textures/noruen_sfx/AcJPblickRed.tga
		blendfunc gl_one gl_one
		tcMod stretch sin 1.2 .8 0 1.5
		rgbGen wave square .5 .5 .25 1.5
	}
}


BTW, where did you get the skybox from? Did you make it yourself?
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Noruen
Posts: 308
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:45 pm

Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Noruen »

JP - Thanks :)

Skybox - yes, it is my own work - planet has edited texture of Jupiter, big nebula is Orion nebula and the small one.. well I do not know what nebula it is...
cityy
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by cityy »

The skybox looks prettys nice from the screenshot. I didn't play it yet but for me the wood texture(planks) on the second screenshot looks a little bit out of place because it is so clean and seems like it has never been touched.
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InsaneKid
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Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 pm

Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by InsaneKid »

im a DOOM-fan too! ;)
its a GREAT map, definetly! :up: Keep up the good work!!!
Reward urself: Do GOOD!
Chretien
Posts: 68
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Chretien »

[lvlshot]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/159251/Map/map%20critique/1.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/159251/Map/map%20critique/2.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/159251/Map/map%20critique/3.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/159251/Map/map%20critique/4.jpg[/lvlshot]
obsidian
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by obsidian »

Would you mind posting your techniques and software used for painting skyboxes? That's some amazing work.
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sock
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by sock »

Wow! this map really does have a gorgeous style and the attention to artist details is amazing with all the broken stuff. This map is certainly something to be proud of and brings a whole new style to Q3, but there are serious problems with this map especially concerning gameplay and layout.

The first problem is the amount of items you have in the map, either you love the sound of the item pickup or feel that items are like details to be sprinkled around to spruce up areas! ;)

Here is a quick drawing I did of your current item layout:
[lvlshot]http://www.simonoc.com/images/misc/noruen_ctf/current_layout.jpg[/lvlshot]

As you can see from the drawing I did of your item layout (I did not even highlight the ammo boxes) that you have far too much of everything. The key to item layouts is 'less is more!'. If items are easy to get then their strength is diminished and nobody cares about their locations anymore. Also never add the same ammo box type next to their weapon type because it is worthless. The spawn time on weapons are really fast already and ammo boxes should be valuable like weapon placements. You also have a crazy amount of health balls and especially the +50 ones which should be like gold dust, hard to get.

The second problem with the map is the layout and gameplay.

1. Mid ground. There is none, you just jump through 1 portal and that is it. I could single handed just stand to the side of the main teleporter and constantly spam the entrance with PG bursts at close range (weapon there so constant ammo) and defend the base. To fix this you will need several entrances to each base linked via teleporters and no PG close by.

2. Excessive amount of teleporters. CTF and teleporters don't mix because there is nothing worse than chasing a FC who you lose in a maze of teleporters and nobody on your team can call where the FC has gone too. The closer to the flag the teleporter the worse the problem, so if you have teleporters in CTF they have got to be a long distance away so a FC can be intercepted before they get to their own base.

3. Long JP across large distance = instant death from RG. You have plenty of locations where you hit long JP's and what with the RG being in a high up sniper point you will be a clay pigeon flying through the sky, out of control and waiting for a mid air RG splat.

4. Wrong powerups, invis/haste. Generally speaking you always have either regen (in each base) or quad. (mid ground) You got the haste close to the flag so it will be almost impossible to catch any FC escaping. The invis powerup is useless once you got the flag because the flag model sticks to your back and is not affected by the powerup.

Here is a quick drawing I did of a possible new item layout and some gameplay changes:
[lvlshot]http://www.simonoc.com/images/misc/noruen_ctf/new_layout.jpg[/lvlshot]

The first thing to do is take the current mountain with the entrance point into each base and bring it close to the base area. (where the RL is in the current map) Also create 3 teleporter connections between each base, 3 inside the starting mountain and 3 outside that players have to jump towards. So each teleporter is oneway and you reduce the chance of telefrags.

Add some cover to the paths from the teleporters to the base, so if someone is up in the mountain trying to snipe players they have to time it right. Place tree's or spikes from the ground at various points up the path so when you run the distance to the base it is not wide open space.

Move the RG out of the sniper tower and put it down at the bottom of the broken stairs (the one with INV powerup). The base is wide open and a RG paradise so make it difficult to get this weapon and be very careful with its ammo. Make the steps up to the base complete enough that you can run up them and not need the JP at the bottom anymore. Sure make it difficult with narrow sections but not impossible.

Take the back area and squash it up next to the flag mountain and connect this lower area with a vertical JP or lift. Get rid of the crazy large gap (looks awesome visually but useless for gameplay) Place a really powerful item here like the regen so that it is a worthwhile location for attackers. Also by removing the broken stairs here, the other set becomes an unique landmark that can be described to people. It would also be worthwhile making this back area unique in someway, maybe a ruined structure slipping off the side of the land into the void or a broken altar for the regen to sit on.

Shift the flag into the center of the main mountain so that it is much easier to get to for attackers and not impossible to defend. Locate a SG/RL/YA for flag defenders and really keep the health balls to a bare minimun in each area so that they become valuable again.

Shift the RA backdoor around so it comes up where the flag use to be. It is still a good distance away from the flag, easy to defend against but also a good shortcut, especially with a RA bonus and LG on the way.

You cannot have entrance teleporters next to the flag and the two currently in the mountain will have to go. The lower teleporter next to the front of the base is too close to the front and would cause problem with defenders. Two routes (left RG, right LG) into the base is plenty. The back area still needs to be connected via a teleporter but it would be cool to connect it to the side LG area so attackers can either go RA backdoor (sneak attack), JP up to flag room (frontal attack) or teleporter, regen and JP up to flag room. (flank attack)

Obviously this item layout still has potential problems like the MH/YA in the lower area, might be cool to lose the MH and keep the RG by itself to the side. This will only become apparent with bot/player testing.

I would also suggest you try add barriers/bars to the front of the flag mountain. (old flag area and new RL area especially) If I grab the flag, the first thing I would do is head straight for the RL area, jump out the window, land at PG area and then dive for a teleporter. You should try and force the FC to either go towards the RG area, regen area/teleporter to LG area or LG area.

Also one last thing, you have got to get this working with bots. Trust me is not impossible to do and there are plenty of people here who could help you with this. You cannot release CTF maps without bots support nowadays, hardly anyone would look at the map otherwise.

Hope that helps
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Noruen
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Noruen »

Thanks a LOT! This is really helpful!

I've already ran GTK Radiant.. long night will be today :)

Obsisidan - I'm using Photoshop and Maya and a LOT of downloaded pics of night sky (you can see a Milky Way "Belt" on the sky), noise star background created in PS, mentioned Orion Nebula and unknown nebula and (inold version) a texture of jupiter colored by blue (planet) but I've already changed it, so now its terrestic planet with atmosphere (to be more neutral). I will post a Screenshot in a few hours here.
Pat Howard
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Pat Howard »

Some -fixaas stuff for ya.

Just give this one a quick once-over to see what -fixaas is all about:
viewtopic.php?t=31963

Here are all the resources/info you should need to get it workin':
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=41125&p=783380&hilit=fixaas#p783380

Let me know if you get it working,
-pat
Noruen
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Noruen »

There is new version of skybox I promised:

http://qxypug.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p ... AcSky2.jpg

And thank you Pat :)
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MKJ
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by MKJ »

how very UT
obsidian
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by obsidian »

If you ever find the time, I wouldn't mind seeing a nice tutorial about how you made that skybox. I've always wanted to do something like that but lacked the means. I can paint, I can model, but how to approach doing something like that, I have never been able to produce satisfied results with.
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Noruen
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Noruen »

MKJ - Everything what is open an big must be UT? I don't think so :)

Obsidian - of couse. May I post a new topic? Or which way may I realize it? I have been never doing tutorial :)
obsidian
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by obsidian »

Yes, new topic would be ideal, thanks.
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MKJ
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by MKJ »

Noruen, no, everything with a spacey skybox in a mountainous area with teleporters to various locations in the map in the mainbase must be UT ;)

it accomodates the floaty physics a lot better.
Noruen
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Noruen »

Well.. and to be UT is bad? :)
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MKJ
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by MKJ »

nope, never implied such
Noruen
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Re: New CTF map testing - Derwyll's Castle

Post by Noruen »

It's me again :)

I want you to inform about progress. There is a screenshot from "new entrace" area:

http://qxypug.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p ... Alpha1.jpg
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