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Topic Starter Topic: Both funny and disturbing realization.

Will map for food.
Will map for food.
Joined: 29 Dec 2000
Posts: 1747
PostPosted: 03-31-2014 09:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


So earlier today I made a thread asking if someone could be kind enough to get some high res screenshots of a Quake 4 map I made that was with the final game. I decided to bite the bullet and grab the game for myself off steam, I also got lucky and was able to find a map i made a long while back called Coldburn. Ok so I begin my foray into the map list and all of a sudden I realize something...

I either worked on, cleaned up, tweaked or out right made nearly every single one of these (The early maps) maps THEN FORGOT ABOUT IT...

I forgot about it. I don't know how its possible one could forget about this kind of a thing but I did.

At first it was doubt, like nah then I realize a lot of the raven maps were sent our way for clean up. some were not. But Ritual had its hands in a heck of a lot of .map files during this time. Being a fast mapper I often would be the guy who would dig in and layout the ground work then other mappers would take over. I also tweaked or cleaned up brush work. I also always loved to do remakes of older Quake maps and had a strong desire to bring my favorites into Quake 4.

My memory of this is still fuzzy however, I am fairly certain I had my hand in all of the remake levels possibly even double edged. The Quake 3 dm6 remake map doesn't ring a bell with me though. I know Clean did as well. Well nearly everyone did. I was always the one called upon for optimizations/portals and such.

So I am sitting here thinking I need to take screen shots of one map included in the game and somehow have a brain aneurism followed by hundreds of flash backs and "Hey I put that there" and "Hey I made this" moments.

So several years and job interviews later... *LARGEST FACEPALM EVER*

edit: So I took a look more of the levels and this post only applies to the maps that came out earlier in the games life span. I have never seen a good chunk of the later maps that are lower on the list. Even still... lol



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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Joined: 24 Nov 2000
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 12:02 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


well good on you either way.




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Boink!
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Joined: 19 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 12:40 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


(bit off-topic nostalgia)

Castle,
noted you worked on Sin Episodes... I really really loved that game and the design. In general I always liked the way the Source engine presents maps (e.g. lighting), but Sin Episodes really was a showcase for Source. Back then I even created an imaged list of all the secrets, fun times. I was very sad when Ritual had to give up on the project.




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Cool #9
Cool #9
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 01:09 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Alzheimer's manifests at increasingly earlier ages :!:




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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 02:12 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
(bit off-topic nostalgia)

Castle,
noted you worked on Sin Episodes... I really really loved that game and the design. In general I always liked the way the Source engine presents maps (e.g. lighting), but Sin Episodes really was a showcase for Source. Back then I even created an imaged list of all the secrets, fun times. I was very sad when Ritual had to give up on the project.


I am doing a full play through of Sin Episodes right now to take screen shots for my portfolio. Even in spite of the fact I was working on the canceled Quake 4 expansion for most of the duration of the Sin Episodes development I still ended up tweaking and bug fixing most of the levels in the game. A ton of small stuff with some big things mixed in. Then on top of that I was put in charge of the final boss battle. It was a blast!

"Well that cool ass Quake 4 expansion you are working is canceled now. Oh and by the way we have about 8000 bugs that need attention on this other project."

There was a lot of things that happened near the end of the project that made me sad. We had a lot of plans for the second episode and I would have loved to have finished it. I was working on an underground cave laboratory with glowing crystals. I also blocked out an underwater arboretum facility that was overrun by a crazy huge plant monster. There was an area with a large dam that had many buildings floating on water, basically, the slums that were threatened to be destroyed by allowing the dam to fully flood the area. We were going to add new weapons and more bad guy types as well as more depth into the mutagen mechanics. We even explored a system where interactive objects required energy for them to function and provided Blade with a device that allows you to siphon energy from various different locations so you can power different things up. The grunts were going to have attachable power armor suits that can have different things depending on what parts the dynamic difficulty system gave them. Legs/boots would give more speed, arms would give increased melee power and ability to lift heavy objects, Helms provide better aim. Fully power armored grunts were going to put chain gun grunts to shame! It was pretty fucking awesome! This is the kind of stuff I imagine I could have gotten into trouble for talking about but its been so long I doubt anyone will care.

As for episode 1's secrets there was one ultimate secret that I don't know if anyone has fully figured out yet. My goal was to create the ultimate Dope fish secret to rule them all. I have done searches and have found that some people found out about the secret but I haven't been able to find anyone who figured it out without cheats. I am going to go ahead and do the full secret on my play through and record the entire thing. That is, unless someone has finally been able to do it without using cheats.



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Boink!
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 03:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The "ultimate secret" sounds scary, like press a switch in some hidden corner under crates and garbage in the first level, and then press some obscure set of switches, hidden as fence grates (technically invisible) in a much later level, to open a underwater door in the dark, just before the boss level ;).

I also very much liked the Star Trek game using the Q3 engine back then, also very creative, but I have to shamefully admit that I liked the Star Wars game that also used the Q3 engine at the time better. I am more of a sucker for light sabres.

Personally I always felt that Half-Life was over- and Sin was underrated at the time.

Alas the whole episodic content concept (Sin Episodes and Half-Life 2 EPs) never worked out.

I have to out myself as a Ritual fan, loved Heavy Metal FAKK²... Ritual's level design was always that extra bit more creative... but apparently that did not translate into sales :(... sad.




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Cool #9
Cool #9
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 05:17 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


There were quite a few great id Tech 3 games, like Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, Soldier of Fortune 2, Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, Call of Duty, Star Trek: Elite Force, Star Wars: Jedi Knight 2, Heavy Metal FAKK² and American McGee's Alice.

It was they heyday of id Software tech licensing.




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I'm the dude!
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Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 06:21 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I remember reading a quote somewhere where someone (probably Carmack) said that they never intended to license out their technology in the first place, unlike Epic who seem to have made it their core business. They weren't really interested in offering a whole lot of direct support to third party developers. Rather, every now and then someone would call id and offer them a pile of cash.



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surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 10:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That was the QuakeCon 2013 Keynote I think.



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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 11:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Alas the whole episodic content concept (Sin Episodes and Half-Life 2 EPs) never worked out.
I have to out myself as a Ritual fan, loved Heavy Metal FAKK²... Ritual's level design was always that extra bit more creative... but apparently that did not translate into sales :(... sad.


The game was actually quite successful and the episodic development concept is quite viable. Sin Episodes did not die due to lackluster sales it died due to *censored*. Give me a team of 12-20 competent people plus funding and I'll gladly lead such a project with 6 month cycles.

AEon wrote:
The "ultimate secret" sounds scary, like press a switch in some hidden corner under crates and garbage in the first level, and then press some obscure set of switches, hidden as fence grates (technically invisible) in a much later level, to open a underwater door in the dark, just before the boss level ;).


The secret is located on the final map in the game and involves having friendly chain gun wielding dope fish companions!



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Last edited by Castle on 04-01-2014 06:21 PM, edited 2 times in total.

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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 11:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
I remember reading a quote somewhere where someone (probably Carmack) said that they never intended to license out their technology in the first place, unlike Epic who seem to have made it their core business. They weren't really interested in offering a whole lot of direct support to third party developers. Rather, every now and then someone would call id and offer them a pile of cash.


Its a good thing that Id did this actually as it made possible a plethora of amazing games some of which are still successful to this day. The sad thing however, is that I doubt anyone will license further Id techs due to them being sub compared to everything else. We are watching the phasing out of one of the greatest gaming giants to ever step foot in the game industry and it makes me sad! While there will be plenty of modern engines to take the reigns there will never be another id software.



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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 07:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Alright here is a video of me doing a walk through of the crazy dope fish secret.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkoLOjDsm_s

Enjoy!



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Boink!
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PostPosted: 04-01-2014 11:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Checked my "Æon's Secrets of SiN Emergence FAQ" (alas since my site is down, and google does not seem to have cached it), back then probably not me, but someone did find the secret, the "weird balcony" (that you could jump off and live BTW), the "weird door", the "upside down room", the "dope fish"... and the dope fish helpers in the final fight... all that was found.

The only thing I did miss back then, strange that I did miss it though, was the TP exit. Maybe I did find it, but then forgot, anyway did not mention the info in the FAQ, since I suggest to use noclip.

Added a screenshot of that part of the FAQ... kinda sucks having to stupe to that...

And I think quite a few folks actually read that FAQ since Bluesnews mentioned it, and it did show up in the appropriate forums. So quite a few folks could have played the secret.




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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 12:21 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


HA! Then that means you were the one I read so long ago that mentioned having to use no clip to reach the level again!

I did some more digging and I found that there are people who did simply figure the whole thing out but they never wrote anything beyond that like how they did it.



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Boink!
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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 02:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I just watched your "EpisodeXX TF2 CTF The Damned" series... I really was hoping to see how Hammer turns brushes into terrain meshes. Because that was one of the things I always wondered about with Hammer.

Having to redo the map several times, would have made me scream, and probably cry... but it's the same with Q3A, one simply needs to have done several maps for that game/gametype to get the feeling of required space/paths.

I liked the comment about requisitioning content from other maps :)... have been doing that with my own maps... why try to re-understand how something works, if you can just copy/paste it between editors (Radiant).

The dam central part of the map I especially liked. Relatively simple use of some curving, and you immediately understand the function of those "water slides". It is interesting to see the prototype textures that Source games come with in Hammer, and to use it to prototype the maps so quickly. I imagine the "ramps" have pretty much a certain angle that lines up with grid and lets you later copy/paste in "good finished stairs". Very efficient. A good Q3A tool like Mirix (IIRC the name) to mirror bases, that replaces texture sets and even the light colours might have helped for Hammer as well.

The fast forward of the videos actually hides how very darn quickly you are mapping. IIRC your total mapping time was something like 20 hours?




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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 12:15 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
I just watched your "EpisodeXX TF2 CTF The Damned" series... I really was hoping to see how Hammer turns brushes into terrain meshes. Because that was one of the things I always wondered about with Hammer.


The next and final segment has footage of the displacement system in action. Ill make sure to go into detail about how it works and what it does exactly. Both COD radiant and Hammer have similar systems for terrain. It would be really neat to see GTKR also have a such as system in place if it doesn't already.

AEon wrote:
Having to redo the map several times, would have made me scream, and probably cry... but it's the same with Q3A, one simply needs to have done several maps for that game/gametype to get the feeling of required space/paths.


Its super common for me to go back an rework blockmeshes. I never work on anything anymore without knowing in the back of my mind Ill be reworking it to improve it. Its just part of the process for me anymore. That's why I place such an emphasis on block meshing when I can. Even the maps I made for No Rest For The Living were reworked multiple times. The original version the Doom 2 Episode was actually one gigantic and long level! It was then decided it would be best to split it up into separate maps and that's when I decided to make it function just like the first episode of Doom 1!

AEon wrote:
I liked the comment about requisitioning content from other maps :)... have been doing that with my own maps... why try to re-understand how something works, if you can just copy/paste it between editors (Radiant).


Yeah! So many people think taking stuff from other maps is bad! In reality doing this not only saves time but it helps with instilling a notion of consistency which is such a huge deal! The quality of your levels go up greatly when they feel consistent!

AEon wrote:
The dam central part of the map I especially liked. Relatively simple use of some curving, and you immediately understand the function of those "water slides". It is interesting to see the prototype textures that Source games come with in Hammer, and to use it to prototype the maps so quickly. I imagine the "ramps" have pretty much a certain angle that lines up with grid and lets you later copy/paste in "good finished stairs". Very efficient. A good Q3A tool like Mirix (IIRC the name) to mirror bases, that replaces texture sets and even the light colours might have helped for Hammer as well.


Yeah I agree.

AEon wrote:
The fast forward of the videos actually hides how very darn quickly you are mapping. IIRC your total mapping time was something like 20 hours?


It is likely up to 20 hours now as each video is roughly 5 hours of work. I am a pretty fast mapper and am often asked to block things out for others. I have been able to clear hundreds of bugs in a single day across levels I have never even touched. One time I won a bet doing this hahaha

If I knew exactly what I needed the level to be from the very start this map would have been done in two videos... However its not healthy to make a full quality level in less than 3 months.



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Boink!
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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 12:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Castle wrote:
However its not healthy to make a full quality level in less than 3 months.

That actually sounds ominous, as in: "don't be too fast as a mapper in the industry or "they" will expect nothing less from you", thus totally burning you out over time.

Anyway, I found watching you mapping interesting. Just watching someone create something, glimpsing a useful idea or mapping technique here and there is quite inspiring. And I really hope to get another map started sometime soon again.




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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 12:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just re-found one of my later maps, in this case for Portal 2 using their "simplified block editor" that was relatively easy to learn and fun to use. I went all out to give the map design and look... my puzzles were pretty crummy. But I think, I was one of the very few who ever created such a cubist look for that game:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... d=80879331

I mention this, because in your videos you were talking about various editors, and the Portal 2 one was certainly an interesting thing for Valve to develop to make mapping for "dummies" so much more accessible.




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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 01:25 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Castle wrote:
However its not healthy to make a full quality level in less than 3 months.

That actually sounds ominous, as in: "don't be too fast as a mapper in the industry or "they" will expect nothing less from you", thus totally burning you out over time.

Anyway, I found watching you mapping interesting. Just watching someone create something, glimpsing a useful idea or mapping technique here and there is quite inspiring. And I really hope to get another map started sometime soon again.


In a professional environment when I plan out a project I give every designer 3 months per level.
1 month to get it playing right in block mesh.
1 month for art phase.
1 month for buffer, bug fixing and polish. ( Multiple maps can be included in this phase.)

So I always look to see if someone is building at a faster rate than this and I can use this to determine if that person is working too hard, losing sleep ect... A full quality map in a month and a half usually means that person lost some sleep...



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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 01:29 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Just re-found one of my later maps, in this case for Portal 2 using their "simplified block editor" that was relatively easy to learn and fun to use. I went all out to give the map design and look... my puzzles were pretty crummy. But I think, I was one of the very few who ever created such a cubist look for that game:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/f ... d=80879331

I mention this, because in your videos you were talking about various editors, and the Portal 2 one was certainly an interesting thing for Valve to develop to make mapping for "dummies" so much more accessible.


I love that editor! One of the things I want to go over eventually is the idea of editors that are UX streamlined. In the same segment I also want to talk about is Minecraft as an editor! Minecraft is a level design tool where you can team up and build a world with thousands of people in real time utilizing plots with permissions!

Just think about that!



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Cool #9
Cool #9
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PostPosted: 04-02-2014 11:23 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Castle wrote:
Alright here is a video of me doing a walk through of the crazy dope fish secret.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkoLOjDsm_s

Enjoy!


Heh, pretty good. Must have been fun building that.

One tip for your videos though. I noticed in this video and others that your microphone cuts out when there's no sound. You might want to disable that because it's hugely annoying. It's actually better to have the white noise of the mic in the background continue when you're not talking than have it cut off, especially because it's often cutting off too early.




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I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 04-03-2014 10:44 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


In before Eraser reverses course and complains about background toilet flushes, cat mews, police sirens, farts, etc. :olo:



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Will map for food.
Will map for food.
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PostPosted: 04-03-2014 07:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
In before Eraser reverses course and complains about background toilet flushes, cat mews, police sirens, farts, etc. :olo:


LOL

Ill have to get some better video editing software eventually. If I record the dialog in one long shot it often gets out of sync for some strange reason ><



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The Afflicted
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PostPosted: 04-12-2014 04:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
I remember reading a quote somewhere where someone (probably Carmack) said that they never intended to license out their technology in the first place, unlike Epic who seem to have made it their core business. They weren't really interested in offering a whole lot of direct support to third party developers. Rather, every now and then someone would call id and offer them a pile of cash.


You have to keep in mind that Carmack is first and foremost, a hacker. He has always strongly believed in sharing his code hence all the source releases. Primarily licensing out technology would undermine that. Secondly, he has always been opposed to getting bigger (as a company). Romero wanted a publishing side (which lead to Raven's first games) and Carmack didn't. They only licensed it out if they were offered a very good deal and didn't have to give support. Don't forget that Gabe only got the licensing deal because his pal Michael Abrash worked at Id at the time.



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