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Topic Starter Topic: Demo recording in Quake 4
Mogul
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PostPosted: 10-08-2005 11:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


At this point, I suppose only rgoer could answer this question. I was talking to a guy from id about this, and last time I spoke with him (I suppose about four months ago) he said that he wasn't sure what system Raven had settled on.

Anyway, is Quake 4's demo recording improved over DOOM 3's? That is to say --

Do the demos have sound? (DOOM finally got that in 1.3, over half a year after release :))

Are the files too ridiculously huge for esports websites like sk-gaming, fnatic.com, esreality, cached, cyberfight, etc, to host? DOOM 3's duels are about 2 gigs.

Do the guis actually make it into the demos?

Do the demos playback at the correct speed? (they're constantly fluctuating in DOOM 3, but mainly stay around the -33% speed mark most of the time)

If demos are not fixed as of 1.0 (or whatever) of Quake 4, is it being looked into for future updates?
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Oeloe
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 01:19 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, i didn't know it was _that_ bad in D3. I knew only about the file size. This is interesting though. Such an important thing should be fixed in Q4.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 01:20 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Demo's are good, but TBH, a thing of the past. With a game such as Doom 3/Quake 4, its hard enough for some people to play the game at a steady FPS. Why force somebody to watch a demo is horrible quality just to see it?

I've gotten used to avidemo's. They work a treat, look perfect, and ANYBODY can watch them, with or without the game.

Sure they take up more size than your standard demo, but they just work better.

Plus lets not forget id will always be lazy and will never add UT style demo settings.
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brisk
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 03:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Uh, demos are absolutely not old news. For competitive gaming, they are an absolute necessity.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 03:19 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


brisk wrote:
Uh, demos are absolutely not old news. For competitive gaming, they are an absolute necessity.


For competive gaming they are nice. But I like to record a demo, then avidemo it up so naybody can watch it, on any rig.
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^misantropia^
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 04:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


o'dium wrote:
For competive gaming they are nice. But I like to record a demo, then avidemo it up so naybody can watch it, on any rig.


Perhaps, but that doesn't make the demo a thing of the past. Just because you don't see the need, doesn't mean there isn't one.
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^misantropia^
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 04:18 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Oeloe wrote:
Wow, i didn't know it was _that_ bad in D3. I knew only about the file size. This is interesting though. Such an important thing should be fixed in Q4.


That was what arQon was ranting about in his D3 bash thread. :p
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 04:18 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


^misantropia^ wrote:
o'dium wrote:
For competive gaming they are nice. But I like to record a demo, then avidemo it up so naybody can watch it, on any rig.


Perhaps, but that doesn't make the demo a thing of the past. Just because you don't see the need, doesn't mean there isn't one.


Quite true. But I'm looking at it from Doom 3's demo. What would you rather have, a 60meg video that anybody can watch, or a 2gig demo that you can only watch on a high end PC that has doom 3?

If the dmeo's are back down to a few meg then fantastic. But if not...
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Foo
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 04:36 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


o'dium wrote:
Quite true. But I'm looking at it from Doom 3's demo. What would you rather have, a 60meg video that anybody can watch, or a 2gig demo that you can only watch on a high end PC that has doom 3?

If the dmeo's are back down to a few meg then fantastic. But if not...


Chances are good (with the improvements in netcode, hitboxes, and other improvements to facilitate online play) that the demo system will have been massively overhauled.



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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 04:45 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah, but they refuse to give offical word on it, still.

Same with coop, they haven't just come out and said "NO" yet either. They haven't said anything.

Although coop is miles harder to do in this than Doom 3, due to a few things that happen in the game (like when you get captured and turned into a strogg, you cant do that in coop).

But then again... They DID say Doom 3 was just to impossible for coop play... So maybe they just reworked the levels as extra missions for coop play, like xbox doom 3.
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Foo
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 04:51 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If I had to guess, I'd say the reason everyone is so tight lipped about the game is because of the collaboration between Raven and id. Posting info to the public becomes a lot more complicated when there are 2 companies IP involved.

Just a guess. The lack of information at this late stage is both frustrating and worrying.



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rgoer
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 09:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


A lot of work went into demo recording in Quake 4. A new set of demo commands were added, recordNetDemo and stopNetDemo, and demos recorded via the netDemo system are much, much smaller than Doom 3 demos were. I can't remember the exact filesize:time ratio, but I feel pretty good saying it's something like 1MB:10mins or so. Doom 3's render-demo technology is also still there, if for some reason you prefer a ratio closer to 3GB:10mins or whatever it was.

Edit: those figures are off the top of my head, I'll update this with more accurate size info sometime later.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 10:09 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


1meg = 10mins?

Thats superb.

Care to go into why things are so much smaller now? Or is that still hush hush for the moment?
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Mogul
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 10:21 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That's good news. And there's sound/proper playback speed, etc?



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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 11:27 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Sounds pretty good. Without proper demo support, I don't think a game can survive on the competitive level. You can forget about sites like esreality reporting on the latest maches and stuff. If people can't watch demos, people won't discuss matches and that would just suck.
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Mogul
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 01:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Look at Painkiller. Great example of this. And of course, if DOOM 3 were played competitively, it'd be perhaps in an even worse situation.



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^misantropia^
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PostPosted: 10-09-2005 02:29 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


rgoer, is there a chance we're going to see MVDs or server demos in Q4?
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 12:20 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


o'dium wrote:
Quite true. But I'm looking at it from Doom 3's demo. What would you rather have, a 60meg video that anybody can watch, or a 2gig demo that you can only watch on a high end PC that has doom 3?

If the dmeo's are back down to a few meg then fantastic. But if not...


Sorry to say so, but that's a rather dumb statement IMO.
Ofcourse D3's demos are obsolete if you can avi demo it, but that doesn't mean it makes demos in general obsolete. When demos are implemented the way they should, like Q3, they're a dream. They're small and with a decent rig run at incredible framerates (and if one plays the game itself with a PC, it will be no problem watching demos with that same PC either. High FPS is even less important when watching a demo) and look as sharp as they could be (no low res video, compression artifacts, lower gfx settings because this "pro" player avi-demoed it at picmip 15, etc, etc).

Throw in things like multiple view demoes, or a step further, uFreeze's demo implementation (where you can start a recorded demo, connect to it as if it were a server, and actually float around the action in spectator mode, and does so at an extremely reasonable file size) and you have the ultimate way to spread recorded games. Sure, you require the game to view it, but unless your target audience really requires it to be in a easily accessible format, avi demos are inferior.
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MKJ
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 12:34 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


q3's demo support was superb. the only thing it lacked was a free roaming mode like in serious sam.
hopefully Q4 will feature this



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Foo
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 12:44 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


My demo wishlist for any FPS game nowadays has to be:
1. Reasonable file sizes
2. Uninterrupted gameplay when recording (remember, Q3 did not have this until OSP)
3. All inclusive demo capture (I.E. Server-Side demo capture) for free roaming playback
4. Demo to video capture capabilities within the game (UT2004 did it, so did the last trackmania game. It wasn't great but it worked).
5. Automatic naming of demos.
6. Default to recording every single match instead of on-demand.



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Eraser
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 12:52 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


A tool like Keygrip for a modern day engine game would be awesome.

edit:
oh and while I think some project to do this for Q3 was going on some time ago, it would be really cool if demos could be generated in some non-proprietary format, like XML. Dunno what that would do with filesize and everything, but you could still stick to delta compression I think.
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^misantropia^
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 02:19 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


In reply to Foo's wishlist:

7: A nice GUI to play, fast-forward and rewind demos.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 02:47 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
o'dium wrote:
Quite true. But I'm looking at it from Doom 3's demo. What would you rather have, a 60meg video that anybody can watch, or a 2gig demo that you can only watch on a high end PC that has doom 3?

If the dmeo's are back down to a few meg then fantastic. But if not...


Sorry to say so, but that's a rather dumb statement IMO.
Ofcourse D3's demos are obsolete if you can avi demo it, but that doesn't mean it makes demos in general obsolete. When demos are implemented the way they should, like Q3, they're a dream. They're small and with a decent rig run at incredible framerates (and if one plays the game itself with a PC, it will be no problem watching demos with that same PC either. High FPS is even less important when watching a demo) and look as sharp as they could be (no low res video, compression artifacts, lower gfx settings because this "pro" player avi-demoed it at picmip 15, etc, etc).

Throw in things like multiple view demoes, or a step further, uFreeze's demo implementation (where you can start a recorded demo, connect to it as if it were a server, and actually float around the action in spectator mode, and does so at an extremely reasonable file size) and you have the ultimate way to spread recorded games. Sure, you require the game to view it, but unless your target audience really requires it to be in a easily accessible format, avi demos are inferior.


And what you said is VERY dumb. How many id games have bothered to put in good demo commands? Pause, rewind, skip, find player, view from X player etc etc... The truth is, id just dont have a clue what the community wants.
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 02:56 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


o'dium wrote:
And what you said is VERY dumb. How many id games have bothered to put in good demo commands? Pause, rewind, skip, find player, view from X player etc etc... The truth is, id just dont have a clue what the community wants.


That has nothing to do with the idea of demos in general. I bet it wouldn't be hard to create a Q3 mod which implements all of those ideas (assuming it supports MVD as well). That there's no interface doesn't mean there's something inherently wrong with the idea of in-game demos.

Additionally, the example of the Keygrip program shows the flexibility of demo recording. It's simply impossible to make a recam with static footage.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 03:16 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.
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Foo
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 03:40 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tis true that Epic rule.

I'm still gonna give Q4 a fair shot :)



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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 03:47 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I know i'll buy it. I cant see an id game on the shelf and NOT buy it.

But maybe thats whats wrong with id software... People buy the games because of the logo, not for the game...? I mean how many eople bought Doom 3 knowing how crap it was and how bad it would run, JUST because of the name?

Maybe id think they are doing something RIGHT? *thinks back to the old "you dont want coop" speach*
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:07 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


o'dium wrote:
Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.


To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:10 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


just one question for you o'dium.
If Quake IV would have Windows Mediaplayer like playback controls, the demos would have 1 mb for 10 minutes and they would be MVD's, allowing you to freely roam through the map in spectator mode as the battle goes on, and even (like in uFreeze) click on people's names in the scoreboard to add picture-in-picture windows of their view?

Wouldn't you agree with me that all that stuff would completely blow an avidemo out of the water in terms of functionality and possiblities?

I bet you'd agree with me. Now stating that currently there is no such implementation out of the box still leads me to the fact that simply because such a thing doesn't exist doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the concept.




Last edited by Eraser on 10-11-2005 04:11 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:10 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
o'dium wrote:
Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.


To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.


Funny, it looks like a discussion from where I'm sitting. Get out of Carmacks ass for once and just post instead of having to disagree with anything negative anybody says about id.

id are living in the 90's. They make games for the 90's on this years tech. This is about demo recording, because the demo functions in Quake 1, 2, 3 Doom 3 and now Quake 4 are all the same. In fact at one point, they took a step BACKWARD. This is on topic.




Last edited by o'dium on 10-11-2005 04:13 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:13 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
just one question for you o'dium.
If Quake IV would have Windows Mediaplayer like playback controls, the demos would have 1 mb for 10 minutes and they would be MVD's, allowing you to freely roam through the map in spectator mode as the battle goes on, and even (like in uFreeze) click on people's names in the scoreboard to add picture-in-picture windows of their view?

Wouldn't all that stuff completely blow an avidemo out of the water in terms of functionality and possiblities?


Obviously, it would be a lot better. But will id software add it? Not a chance in hell. They haven't got a clue what the community wants. Thats why they just go with what "they" want and think all the time, and dont understand why people get pissed when they make the same mistake AGAIN.

I've already said that if the demos had that kind of support they would be better. I suggest you start reading between the lines Eraser and not just jumping in because of your fanboy-like attitude.

Like if i say "nintendo sucks, the revolution pad is shit" you will now post a 19 page thread about how i'm wrong, and how your right, and quote me 74 times saying the same thing. Thats what you do. Let it go, its called an opinion. id sucks, IN MY OPINION, because they are living in the 90's are no longer king. Live with it.
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:14 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


o'dium wrote:
Eraser wrote:
o'dium wrote:
Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.


To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.


Funny, it looks like a discussion from where I'm sitting. Get out of Carmacks ass for once and just post instad of having to disagree with anything negative anybody says about id.

id are living in the 90's. They make games for the 90's on this years tech. This is about demo recording, because the demo functions in Quake 1, 2, 3 Doom 3 and now Quake 4 are all the same. In fact at one point, they took a step BACKWARD. This is on topic.


You stick to this id Software bashing thing eh?
That's not the discussion I wish to partake in. I don't care much for defending id Software either. Actually, you telling me to get out of Carmack's ass is completely ridiculous and unfound. I am not defending id Software in any way, I am only defending the concept of in-game demos versus pre-recorded "static" videos.

It would be kind of sad if you can't see that.
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o'dium
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:15 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
o'dium wrote:
Eraser wrote:
o'dium wrote:
Once again, your missing the point... Who the fuck should force somebody to go online and downloada MOD for something thats retardedly obvious in the first place?

Like all these people that say "dont worry, play OSP". WHY? If X is supposed to be that way, why cant id software see if and make it that way themselves?

Honestly? Instead they seem to be going backwards and putting in LESS things people want.

Epic really are becoming the new id software. EVERYTHING they do is added and then looked at by gamers and reviewers and all sorts and if it doesn't work, its gone. Doesn't matter if "they" like it, its gone. Because its the gamers, the public, that play it. Give them what they want.


To be honest o'dium, you're driving this discussion further from "the point" than humanly possible. Your original claim was that demo recordings were made obsolete by avi demos. I'm not agreeing with you on that point, that was what this discussion was about.

You've turned it into an id Software bashing competition, which I won't participate in, as it's utterly irrelevant what id Software does and doesn't do with demo recording.


Funny, it looks like a discussion from where I'm sitting. Get out of Carmacks ass for once and just post instad of having to disagree with anything negative anybody says about id.

id are living in the 90's. They make games for the 90's on this years tech. This is about demo recording, because the demo functions in Quake 1, 2, 3 Doom 3 and now Quake 4 are all the same. In fact at one point, they took a step BACKWARD. This is on topic.


You stick to this id Software bashing thing eh?
That's not the discussion I wish to partake in. I don't care much for defending id Software either. Actually, you telling me to get out of Carmack's ass is completely ridiculous and unfound. I am not defending id Software in any way, I am only defending the concept of in-game demos versus pre-recorded "static" videos.

It would be kind of sad if you can't see that.


And even though I AGREED WITH YOU on that, you still go on ignoring the fact that I DID AGREE WITH YOU.

If you dont want to take part in the bashing, fine, dont. Leave me and whoever else wants to share their rational opinion to battle it out or discuss it. Just ignore it yeah, its not like somebody is FORCING YOU to post.
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Foo
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PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:18 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


odium has a point about demo recording, and to extrapolate it into a general observation about id software and epic games seems entirely reasonable



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Eraser
Cool #9
Cool #9
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 44139
PostPosted: 10-11-2005 04:19 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


you seem rather agitated
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