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Topic: q4max 25% fps boost

dubz
Insane Quaker

Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 496

Posted: 06-30-2006 09:01 AM

Quote:
Overall, it's actually more like 30+ because of the other fixes and optimisations.

We're just scratching the surface though TBH: the Q4 code is so bad in so MANY places that I expect we'll get at least another 25% in 0.76 now that there's time to really dig into it.

heh, now we see why you had to have a dual core and 2gig ram to play the game...
i will proly able to play with steady 60fps without vertex in the next realese.

http://planetquake4.net/download.php?op=fileid&lid=2312

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Ganemi
The Afflicted

Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 563

Posted: 06-30-2006 09:16 AM

: [ It's funny. I've never seen a Q4max server, yet it seems to be quite popular. IP, anyone?

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spookmineer
The Afflicted

Joined: 29 Nov 2002
Posts: 622

Posted: 06-30-2006 01:03 PM

How is it possible that a (very good) community mod team can get an fps boost like this... I can hardly believe it is because they are better coders then professionals...?

Does it have to do with enabling vertexlighting, or does the code really have that much flaws that when improving it, the results are so much better?

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Mogul
OUR HERO

Joined: 23 May 1973
Posts: 3273

Posted: 06-30-2006 02:17 PM

Quake 4 code is an unbelievable mess. Trust me.

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AnthonyJa
Warrior

Joined: 26 Nov 2000
Posts: 85

Posted: 06-30-2006 06:45 PM

spookmineer wrote:
I can hardly believe it is because they are better coders then professionals...?

You're making the assumption we're not professionals too.... coding has been my day job for quite a while now, and arQon even longer. Not sure how long qrealka has been at it, but I'm pretty sure coding is his day job too. Not games, but that makes no difference.

Its not that we're better. Its perhaps that we're more focused on making it faster, so have taken the time to profile it and look for bottlenecks and see if they're justified.

Its maybe a bit harsh to include it in this context, but there is definately code in q4 / d3 that shows to me they were learning C++ / OO principals, as there are some pretty ugly bits there, which I wouldnt really be happy with. Not noticed any of these causing perf issues tho (although the one I hated the most is rewritten in q4max anyway).

Quote:
Does it have to do with enabling vertexlighting, or does the code really have that much flaws that when improving it, the results are so much better?

The changes that make .75 so much faster than .74 are not lighting related - they're just fixing some sloppy code which is doing a lot of work unnecessarily. On q4ctf1 we found it hitting a rather CPU intensive piece of code 3000 times per second unnecessarily - ie, doing nothing. (figure from memory, but pretty sure thats correct).

The changes arQon is referring to that we're looking at doing for .76 are again an area of code we believe to be significantly slower than we believe it needs to be, and are looking at ways it can be improved. Disabling this code gives the speed boosts arqon quotes with minimal effect on the game (although some, which is why it isnt done in .75).

These are both on top of vertex lighting, which obviously still speeds things up massively.

Oh, and server-IP - well theres always our public server, which is at: q4max.fragstore.net:28004 although theres another 270-odd servers, so you might wanna pick one near you.

Heres a query.

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spookmineer
The Afflicted

Joined: 29 Nov 2002
Posts: 622

Posted: 06-30-2006 07:19 PM

AnthonyJa wrote:
spookmineer wrote:
I can hardly believe it is because they are better coders then professionals...?

You're making the assumption we're not professionals too.... coding has been my day job for quite a while now, and arQon even longer. Not sure how long qrealka has been at it, but I'm pretty sure coding is his day job too. Not games, but that makes no difference.

I'm sorry, I used the word professional because they get payed for it, it's not related to the amount of knowledge.

The mod team is doing a very good job, but they consist of volunteers. It just strikes me that volunteers can do a better job then people who get paid for it (I know this isn't an exception).
It's great that you are more focused on certain aspects of the code, but shouldn't this have been done in the first place? Hearing the code is a mess is not very comforting to hear...

Maybe a limited amount of time or pushing to get the game out is a reason, but to me it's not a good reason :/

AnthonyJa wrote:
Quote:
Does it have to do with enabling vertexlighting, or does the code really have that much flaws that when improving it, the results are so much better?

The changes that make .75 so much faster than .74 are not lighting related - they're just fixing some sloppy code which is doing a lot of work unnecessarily. On q4ctf1 we found it hitting a rather CPU intensive piece of code 3000 times per second unnecessarily - ie, doing nothing. (figure from memory, but pretty sure thats correct).

The changes arQon is referring to that we're looking at doing for .76 are again an area of code we believe to be significantly slower than we believe it needs to be, and are looking at ways it can be improved. Disabling this code gives the speed boosts arqon quotes with minimal effect on the game (although some, which is why it isnt done in .75).

Again, I think this is great
But how does it make you guys feel...? If I were part of it, I'd be feeling like mopping up the mess someone else made...

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kleeks
The Illuminated

Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 1070

Posted: 07-01-2006 03:58 AM

spookmineer wrote:
The mod team is doing a very good job, but they consist of volunteers. It just strikes me that volunteers can do a better job then people who get paid for it (I know this isn't an exception).

I've always felt that there no better motivation than the love of something (or the desire to actually succeed) ergo, you'll always get more from people who truly enjoy doing what they do, rather than those that simply get paid for it
- not that i'm suggesting the raven guys weren't trying/enjoying the creation of quake4, its just that when deadlines loom, and corporate pressure come to bear - If you're controlled by your payslip, you can understand why standards may slip and even with the best professional pride in the world - you'll ultimately end up doing as your employer asks.

spookmineer wrote:
But how does it make you guys feel...? If I were part of it, I'd be feeling like mopping up the mess someone else made...

Yeah this is the reality of life for a lot of people out there.
It highlights more than anything why the mod teams should be supported positively for the good they do, and not constantly slated for things they didn't include or bugs they may have missed.

I'm just glad we, as the community, have a group of people in q4max, who not only have a good knowledge of coding, but are willing to spend their free time slaving away to make quake4 more enjoyable for the masses. (hehe so, er, thanks guys )

I'm interested to see if any of the changes see there way into q4base and or other mods. An open source q4max may be to much to ask, but i am aware the lines of communication are open - and perhaps we will see some sharing of thoughts.

Last edited by kleeks on 07-01-2006 04:01 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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4days
4days Joined: 15 Apr 2002
Posts: 8193

Posted: 07-01-2006 03:58 AM

i thought that was how every programmer described editing someone else's code

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D'Artagnan
Quake Addict

Joined: 13 May 2000
Posts: 1794

Posted: 07-01-2006 04:55 AM

Mogul wrote:
Quake 4 code is an unbelievable mess. Trust me.
Well the guys that made the new game comming soon call PREY did there homework, cause i tryed the demo and on 1024x768, FSAA x 2 and AA x 8 and all the quality effects on high setting. The demo was running like a charm...no LAG at all.

And its made by the same engine...

So, explane to me why quake 4 with the same setting would be hard to maintain 60 FPS, cause when i play Q4 i have to tweak my config to be able to get a steady 60 fps...

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obsidian
I'm the dude!

Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 07-01-2006 05:56 AM

DDS only texture set in the PK4 for one thing. Lower, compressed textures result in much lower requirements on texture memory. Also very limited line of sight. There may be a few optimizations, but AFAIK the engine is still the same.

BTW, Q4Max is updating the Q4 game code and not the engine code, correct?

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spookmineer
The Afflicted

Joined: 29 Nov 2002
Posts: 622

Posted: 07-01-2006 12:51 PM

D'Artagnan wrote:
Well the guys that made the new game comming soon call PREY did there homework, cause i tryed the demo and on 1024x768, FSAA x 2 and AA x 8 and all the quality effects on high setting. The demo was running like a charm...no LAG at all.

And its made by the same engine...

So, explane to me why quake 4 with the same setting would be hard to maintain 60 FPS, cause when i play Q4 i have to tweak my config to be able to get a steady 60 fps...

I noticed the same thing, Prey runs quite well here, on a slightly outdated PC. Much smoother then former D3 engined games.

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Ganemi
The Afflicted

Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 563

Posted: 07-01-2006 01:33 PM

AnthonyJa wrote:
spookmineer wrote:
I can hardly believe it is because they are better coders then professionals...?

You're making the assumption we're not professionals too.... coding has been my day job for quite a while now, and arQon even longer. Not sure how long qrealka has been at it, but I'm pretty sure coding is his day job too. Not games, but that makes no difference.

Its not that we're better. Its perhaps that we're more focused on making it faster, so have taken the time to profile it and look for bottlenecks and see if they're justified.

Its maybe a bit harsh to include it in this context, but there is definately code in q4 / d3 that shows to me they were learning C++ / OO principals, as there are some pretty ugly bits there, which I wouldnt really be happy with. Not noticed any of these causing perf issues tho (although the one I hated the most is rewritten in q4max anyway).

I wonder how someone comes to the point where (s)he's a professional at at modding games, when he or she isn't getting payed to do that. Really, how'd that happen? : \

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AnthonyJa
Warrior

Joined: 26 Nov 2000
Posts: 85

Posted: 07-01-2006 01:46 PM

Ganemi wrote:
I wonder how someone comes to the point where (s)he's a professional at at modding games, when he or she isn't getting payed to do that. Really, how'd that happen? : \

Ummm... Maybe you should re-read the statement:

spookmineer wrote:
I can hardly believe it is because they are better coders then professionals...?

Notice it doesnt mention anything about "professional modder", just better coders. I'm getting paid a lot more to code than I would if I were a games programmer... (edit: ie, we're professional coders too, and therefore pointing out that you cannot infer anything like that statement as theres no significant distinction between "us" and "them")

To answer a few more positive posts, yea, q4max is gamecode only - which obviously prey's coders can optimise (although they can touch the engine too). Q4 engine can run solid at 60fps with nice gfx too, just not yet

Kleeks - yer welcome Gotta say the poll on petitiononline.com telling us to give it up almost tipped the balance (for me, at least). Negativity wont make q4 better, positivity will. Yes, we have been sharing info with id on what we've found - hopefully some will make it into 1.3, although we'll have to see. We've also pointed out a few things that seem particularly slow engineside which we cannot fix (eg the .fx stuff).

As for how it makes us feel cleaning up the mess.... yea, frustrating at times, but I came into this once q4 was released and I'd seen the issues, so cant really complain.

Last edited by AnthonyJa on 07-01-2006 03:39 PM, edited 2 times in total.

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Ganemi
The Afflicted

Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 563

Posted: 07-01-2006 02:39 PM

What do you do, though? What's your job/career?

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AnthonyJa
Warrior

Joined: 26 Nov 2000
Posts: 85

Posted: 07-01-2006 02:54 PM

"Senior Software Engineer" is what my card says, IIRC. Generally I simplify that to "Computer Programmer" for non-techy audiences, or C++ coder for techy ones (I delve into other languages when I need to, but C++ is what I've done pretty much solidly for the last 7 years, so...).

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Ganemi
The Afflicted

Joined: 21 Apr 2005
Posts: 563

Posted: 07-01-2006 03:12 PM

That's cool. I want to go into something like that, and 3d graphics. It'd be great to have awesome coding skills someday. : ]

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