So the Quake 4 Lighting system

[Foo]

Forgive me if this is available somewhere, I couldn't find much on it.

Is Quake 4's lighting system fully dynamic? Is this why it's so slow?

I know that in Quake 3 there was support for both Lightmap and Vertex lighting, and no support for dynamic lights.

Does Quake 4 not have backwards support for Lightmap lighting?

[jester!]

Honestly with those settings that are locked you can get it done without the dynamic everything I think. The support is there Raven has just crippled the functionality...

[Eraser]

Forgive me if this is available somewhere, I couldn't find much on it.

Is Quake 4's lighting system fully dynamic? Is this why it's so slow?

Yes and yes

I know that in Quake 3 there was support for both Lightmap and Vertex lighting, and no support for dynamic lights.

Does Quake 4 not have backwards support for Lightmap lighting?

The lightmap lighting that Q3 used and the lighting system that Doom3/Quake 4 use is completely different from each other. As you know, lightmaps are calculated at compile time of the map. D3/Q4's map compiler doesn't do this, so there's no lightmaps available at all.

[MidnightQ4]

wow that's uh, really crap. nice one carmack.

[Foo]

Ah right. Is it possible to have an engine which layers dynamic light over a lightmap layer? Presumably this is possible, but would mean adding an extra 'stage' to each texture pass?

[MidnightQ4]

he should have left lightmaps as an option then cause obviously it is a huge issue for most people. perhaps in 3 years it won't be a problem, but for now it is. I suppose that the community will be able to overcome these obstacles however by redoing maps and making new maps that are designed with better fps in mind.

[Detoeni]

This might be of intrest:
http://www.fuzzpopfx.com/tutorials/doom3/

[Tormentius]

he should have left lightmaps as an option then cause obviously it is a huge issue for most people. perhaps in 3 years it won't be a problem, but for now it is. I suppose that the community will be able to overcome these obstacles however by redoing maps and making new maps that are designed with better fps in mind.

Real-time lighting was one of the main points of the engine. It was designed around new technology, not to be easy on lower-end hardware. Q3 was a bitch on hardware when it first came out too.

[Foo]

Real-time lighting was one of the main points of the engine. It was designed around new technology, not to be easy on lower-end hardware. Q3 was a bitch on hardware when it first came out too.

I think what he means is leaving it in in the same way that vertex lighting was left in the Q3 engine.

It was pretty importany back then. I think the general performance boost from vertex lighting was something like 20%.

Dynamic and Lightmap light systems aren't mutually exclusive. Indeed, this tutorial demonstrates the possibility:

This might be of intrest:
http://www.fuzzpopfx.com/tutorials/doom3/

Thanks Detoeni, that was an interesting read :icon14:

[jester!]

he should have left lightmaps as an option then cause obviously it is a huge issue for most people. perhaps in 3 years it won't be a problem, but for now it is. I suppose that the community will be able to overcome these obstacles however by redoing maps and making new maps that are designed with better fps in mind.

Real-time lighting was one of the main points of the engine. It was designed around new technology, not to be easy on lower-end hardware. Q3 was a bitch on hardware when it first came out too.

And yet you could pull 125fps on hardware that was below spec with the right tweaks...

[Foo]

And yet you could pull 125fps on hardware that was below spec with the right tweaks...

Source?

[Foo]

And yet you could pull 125fps on hardware that was below spec with the right tweaks...

http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12692

That's not so much a tweak as gutting the game and removing some hardwired pieces of it.

You can't make that adjustment on the game without breaking compatability with everyone else.

[jester!]

And yet you could pull 125fps on hardware that was below spec with the right tweaks...

Source?

Pulling 125 in Q3 with below spec equipment?

My ugliest config with a p3 500 128 ram and a voodoo 3 could do it. Which I believe was under spec. Besides my current comp is above Q4 min spec and yet fully tweaked I can only get 47.

Now following that link thats the ticket, unlock that stuff for MP and everyone gets 60, nobody loses but the gfx whores who dont like to lose out to people who dont have the uber hardware and feel the need to run around in shadows...

[jester!]

And yet you could pull 125fps on hardware that was below spec with the right tweaks...

http://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12692

That's not so much a tweak as gutting the game and removing some hardwired pieces of it.

You can't make that adjustment on the game without breaking compatability with everyone else.

How? If its unlocked for MP play how does it break compatability?

[Foo]

Pulling 125 in Q3 with below spec equipment?

My ugliest config with a p3 500 128 ram and a voodoo 3 could do it. Which I believe was under spec. Besides my current comp is above Q4 min spec and yet fully tweaked I can only get 47.

Now following that link thats the ticket, unlock that stuff for MP and everyone gets 60, nobody loses but the gfx whores who dont like to lose out to people who dont have the uber hardware and feel the need to run around in shadows...

* 3-D Hardware Accelerator with full OpenGL® support
* Pentium II® 300 Mhz or AMD® 350 Mhz K6®-2 processor or Athlon® processor
* Windows 95/98/ME/NT 4.0/2000 operating system
* 64 MB RAM
* 16 MB video card
* 440 MB of uncompressed hard disk space for each game
* 110MB of free hard drive space for the Windows swap file (in addition to install space)
* A 100% Windows® 95/98/ME/NT 4.0/2000-compatible computer system (including compatible 32-bit drivers for CD-ROM drive , video card, sound card and input devices)
* 100% DirectX 3.0 or higher compatible sound card
* 100% Microsof-compatible mouse and driver
* Quad-speed CD-ROM drive (600 K/sec. sustained transfer rate)

Suffice to say, your equipment was above spec.

In fact, it's about double the minimum spec, in real terms.

I think this nullifies your point to a large degree.

[Foo]

How? If its unlocked for MP play how does it break compatability?

My bad. I confused it with the thread about recompiled maps with less lights :icon32:

[Foo]

Man I even got the wrong system spect above. Those were for Team Arena. Here's Q3, even lower:

* 3-D Hardware Accelerator with full OpenGL® support
* Pentium® 233 Mhz MMX®processor with 8 MB Video Card
Or Pentium II 266 Mhz processor with 4 MB Video Card
Or AMD® 350 Mhz K6®-2 processor with 4 MB Video Card
* 64 MB RAM
* A 100% Windows® 95/98/NT 4.0 compatible computer system (including compatible 32-bit drivers for CD-ROM drive , video card, sound card and input devices)
* Windows 95/98/ NT 4.0 (with Service Pack 3) operating system
* 25 MB of uncompressed hard disk space for game files (Minimum Install), plus 45 MB for the Windows swap file
* Quad-speed CD-ROM drive (600 K/sec. sustained transfer rate)
* 100% DirectX 3.0 or higher compatible sound card
* 100% Microsof-compatible mouse and driver
* 100%Windows 95/98/NT 4.0 compatible joystick (optional)

[jester!]

Suffice to say, your equipment was above spec.

In fact, it's about double the minimum spec, in real terms.

I think this nullifies your point to a large degree.

Hmm actually I was above in proc and ram but meet the video, despite the fact the voodoo didnt like opengl iirc.

Much like now where I kill the proc / ram but meet the video, only in Q3 I could get to the optimal play levels, and in Q4 I could if only they unlocked one variable.

EDIT: Well I see both of my legs have now been taken out and I will accept my beating :icon32:

And I bought TA and it was pretty near unplayable on my old system so I guess it does all scale and I should accept that Q4 is unplayable. To bad its only one command that we have been teased with that would get me to that solid 60...

[Foo]

For what it's worth, I still agree with your underlying beleif, that as the gamer, you have the right to expect better backwards compatability.

It mystifies me to a large degree why, when game engines are built up as enhanced versions of previous engines, a large amount of customisation cannot be kept (Native lightmap support is a great example in this case).

I mean when you strip it away, the new things in Quake 4 graphics could be disabled to increase performance. Bump mapping is a good example, as is Dynamic light vs Lightmap, and even Vertex (why not, right?).

On the subject of lightmaps again, is there no support at all for them in the editor? I haven't looked to deep into the new editor, and only know Radiant

[^misantropia^]

I know that in Quake 3 there was support for both Lightmap and Vertex lighting, and no support for dynamic lights.

Q3A has dynamic lights of sorts: dlights alter the lightmap on the fly, not unlike deluxel mapping.

[Tormentius]

My ugliest config with a p3 500 128 ram and a voodoo 3 could do it. Which I believe was under spec. Besides my current comp is above Q4 min spec and yet fully tweaked I can only get 47.

You're running a GF3 Ti200 which is the absolute minimum spec required for the game so, IMO, expecting a locked 60fps is more than a little unrealistic. 47 fps is pretty damned good considering what you're running.

[Guest]

Why not just play quake 3 if you want the game to run perfectly with everything maxed out? Whats the point of making Quake 4 look like Quake 3, or even worse? IMO, if you want to play Quake 4, then shell out the cash on a top-end system, or just do what I will: wait a year and buy a system for under $1000 that will run the game flawlessly.

[jester!]

You're running a GF3 Ti200 which is the absolute minimum spec required for the game so, IMO, expecting a locked 60fps is more than a little unrealistic. 47 fps is pretty damned good considering what you're running.

The worst of it is that its one command that is already in the system and seriously I would bet would take 5 minutes to unlock and everyone could get 60 if they want.

Really I am just impatient as once the SDK is released if everyone with shittier comps, comparitivly, hasnt left the game for something else mods will unlock it for us and we can all live happy.

"or just do what I will: wait a year and buy a system for under $1000 that will run the game flawlessly."

Thats a wasted year however when one command changed tomorrow could have us all playing.

/shrug

That said I am going to play now.

[MidnightQ4]

My ugliest config with a p3 500 128 ram and a voodoo 3 could do it. Which I believe was under spec. Besides my current comp is above Q4 min spec and yet fully tweaked I can only get 47.

You're running a GF3 Ti200 which is the absolute minimum spec required for the game so, IMO, expecting a locked 60fps is more than a little unrealistic. 47 fps is pretty damned good considering what you're running.

wow that's unbelievably good for that card. I would expect something in the 15-20 fps range with everything turned off.

[Tormentius]

You're running a GF3 Ti200 which is the absolute minimum spec required for the game so, IMO, expecting a locked 60fps is more than a little unrealistic. 47 fps is pretty damned good considering what you're running.

The worst of it is that its one command that is already in the system and seriously I would bet would take 5 minutes to unlock and everyone could get 60 if they want.

You don't need 60fps to play and enjoy the game. That said, you could get a much, much better vid card for under $100 so why not just bite the bullet and upgrade. You can't expect the best if you're not willing to invest to get it. I doubt that a mod is going to unprotect that var because PB will still detect known cheats and illegal vars even after the SDK is released.