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Dr.Gibbs
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 08:42 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If everyone got what they deserved, then society would be in trouble.

Torture and murder is never right, no matter what the circumstances are. The ONLY time it's okay to kill someone is when you are doing it in self-defense. "Two wrongs don't make a right" is every bit as old as "eye for an eye," and it's true. It's something that people often forget, especially when they are angry.

Unfortunately there are too many people in this country (the US) who do not understand the complexities of criminal behavior, and they allow their anger and thirst for vengence to get in the way of rational thought. I do not in any way support rapists and murderers, but until society as a whole understands why serial criminals continue to do what they do, crime will continue to be a problem. You are fortunate if in the large number of times you have lost control of your emotions, you have never hurt anyone.

I don't tend to put much value on the worldview of a society that not 100 years ago segregated blacks and didn't allow women to vote. Interestingly enough, we're also the only society who has ever nuked someone. To this day I hear people justifying it.
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Dr.Gibbs
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 08:45 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


About free will... when given a choice, you will always choose the option that you believe will bring you the least pain and the most pleasure. There is no such thing as free will as people usually define it. You are a prisoner of your perceptions, and you will always choose the option that you believe will help you the most.

What about the father that works two jobs to feed his children? He considers the pain of working 80 hours a week to be more tolerable than the pain of watching his children starve to death. It is ultimately a selfish decision.
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 09:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Julios,

I don't think it is a deterministic universe. It's a probabalistic universe.

Not unlike the double slit experiments with electrons and their random unpredictable patterns, our number of choices may be finite (and even predictable), but what we ultimately choose, may be seen as a probablity, an actualization of one of the possibilities but ultimately unpredictable as to which one.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 09:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It's a little more complicated than that, puff. edit: QM doesn't rule out all determinism.
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 09:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
It's a little more complicated than that, puff. edit: QM doesn't rule out all determinism.


what do you mean by 'all determinism'?

(and yes i know it's more complicated, i was trying to illustrate an idea rather than explain a full set of reasons )
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 09:44 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I mean all deterministic arguments or positions.
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 09:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
I mean all deterministic arguments or positions.


ahh i gotcha. yeah, some would argue that sub atomic events couldn't have an effect on the Newtonian universe but I just don't see how that's so.
Some would then counter that I don't see how it's so, because not all factors are observable and that person could further argue that even though not observable, there are forces which are determining the probablistic stuff i.e. the influence from 7 other dimensions etc.

but what reasons do they have to think that?
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Dark Metal
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:00 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


We love Rodney's Oysters.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Massive Quasars wrote:
I mean all deterministic arguments or positions.


ahh i gotcha. yeah, some would argue that sub atomic events couldn't have an effect on the Newtonian universe but I just don't see how that's so.


One argument, yes.

Quote:
Some would then counter that I don't see how it's so, because not all factors are observable and that person could further argue that even though not observable, there are forces which are determining the probablistic stuff i.e. the influence from 7 other dimensions etc.

but what reasons do they have to think that?


Another argument, and a reasonable one. They don't need to believe that the probabilistic stuff is determined on a level we can't observe. They simply need to doubt that it isn't. Remember we don't know, and we may not be able to know whether in some way unbeknownst to us all, that which seems probabilistic is determined.




Last edited by Massive Quasars on 05-24-2005 10:06 AM, edited 2 times in total.
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:03 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Dark Metal wrote:
We love Rodney's Oysters.


lol you manwhore

edit: 'we' can fuck off




Last edited by HM-PuFFNSTuFF on 05-24-2005 10:08 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:07 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Massive Quasars wrote:
I mean all deterministic arguments or positions.


ahh i gotcha. yeah, some would argue that sub atomic events couldn't have an effect on the Newtonian universe but I just don't see how that's so.


One argument, yes.

Quote:
Some would then counter that I don't see how it's so, because not all factors are observable and that person could further argue that even though not observable, there are forces which are determining the probablistic stuff i.e. the influence from 7 other dimensions etc.

but what reasons do they have to think that?


Another argument, and a reasonable one. They don't need to believe that the probabilistic stuff is determined on a level we can't observe. They simply need to doubt that it isn't. Remember we don't know, and we may not be able to know whether in some way unbeknownst to us all this which seems probabilistic is determined.


you can see why although I don't wholly discount that theory, I don't find it especially compelling?
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I just wanted to clarify a few things.



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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


well then please go ahead and do so
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:17 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


wanted... and did.



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Transient
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:18 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki wrote:
Transient wrote:
An uncontrollable urge denotes a mental shortcoming. By depriving them of the ability to reproduce, future generations are all the more likely to be healthy. Evolution, survival of the fittest, etc.


That's not darwinisnm, that's fascism. GG.


That's not fascism, LOL. Fascism is made up of a LOT of beliefs, not just that one. :dork:

PS: I find it funny to see the word 'darwinism' misspelled. :D
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
Ryoki wrote:
Transient wrote:
An uncontrollable urge denotes a mental shortcoming. By depriving them of the ability to reproduce, future generations are all the more likely to be healthy. Evolution, survival of the fittest, etc.


That's not darwinisnm, that's fascism. GG.


That's not fascism, LOL. Fascism is made up of a LOT of beliefs, not just that one. :dork:


maybe he meant to say it's fascistic :)
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Transient
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:26 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Well I will agree to that much, it was a fascist remark. :)
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Julios,

I don't think it is a deterministic universe. It's a probabalistic universe.

Not unlike the double slit experiments with electrons and their random unpredictable patterns, our number of choices may be finite (and even predictable), but what we ultimately choose, may be seen as a probablity, an actualization of one of the possibilities but ultimately unpredictable as to which one.


Even if there is inherent unpredictability in the unfolding of reality, I don't see how the moral gap can be bridged through it.
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Keep It Real
PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Julios,

I don't think it is a deterministic universe. It's a probabalistic universe.

Not unlike the double slit experiments with electrons and their random unpredictable patterns, our number of choices may be finite (and even predictable), but what we ultimately choose, may be seen as a probablity, an actualization of one of the possibilities but ultimately unpredictable as to which one.


Even if there is inherent unpredictability in the unfolding of reality, I don't see how the moral gap can be bridged through it.


shit is too real, B
thats why i want yall to still feel me
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
Canadian Shaft
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:46 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
Julios,

I don't think it is a deterministic universe. It's a probabalistic universe.

Not unlike the double slit experiments with electrons and their random unpredictable patterns, our number of choices may be finite (and even predictable), but what we ultimately choose, may be seen as a probablity, an actualization of one of the possibilities but ultimately unpredictable as to which one.


Even if there is inherent unpredictability in the unfolding of reality, I don't see how the moral gap can be bridged through it.


the moral gap?
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 10:49 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


HM-PuFFNSTuFF wrote:
the moral gap?


see my long post on page 3
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 11:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


btw this is the 17 year old who assaulted the girl.

Image

maybe it's the camera angle, but it looks like he's in his fuckin 40's...
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 11:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


ah part of it is coz it looks like he's wearing glasses, but he's not - illusion caused by the left eyebrow and left eye of the officer who's escorting him.

here's another pic:

Image

and an even better one:

Image
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MKJ
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 11:14 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


"17 year not young" :D



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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 11:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


bahaha
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Hannibal
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 11:15 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Jules, I'm going to be tied up (sexually) for the next few days and won't be around here...but I certainly will give your earlier post the attention it deserves when I return.
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 11:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


sounds good - don't forget to breathe ;)
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Tormentius
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 01:15 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade wrote:


I hope to god you never have to ask yourself if you still believe this statement while standing over your child's hospital bed.
If that happened to my daughter, I would do everything I possibly could to make sure that whoever did it met a BAD end.


Well said. Personally, I can't stand bleeding heart pseudo-intellectuals who like to endlessly ponder leniency for someone who coldly chose to rip away a child's innocence and future. One to the back of the head...simple and effective.




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corncobman
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 02:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


He should be set fire to, then buried alive. In faeces.



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Guest
PostPosted: 05-24-2005 03:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It's in cases like this where my brand of justice comes in very handy.

I'd get a group of my friends, go get him, tie him up bring him out to the woods and bury him. Alive.
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Keep It Real
PostPosted: 05-24-2005 03:33 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
It's in cases like this where my brand of justice comes in very handy.

I'd get a group of my friends, go get him, tie him up bring him out to the woods and bury him. Alive.


anger is irrational, it doesn't do any good.
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Guest
PostPosted: 05-24-2005 03:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Keep It Real wrote:
Kracus wrote:
It's in cases like this where my brand of justice comes in very handy.

I'd get a group of my friends, go get him, tie him up bring him out to the woods and bury him. Alive.


anger is irrational, it doesn't do any good.


I disagree, if I killed him It would make me feel better.
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Shmee
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 04:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
So is kidnapping an 8-year-not young, raping her, and burying her alive, leaving her for dead.


WTF is up with this "8-year-not young" shit? Do you mean 8 year-old?

Jesus.

Edit: Sorted.



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Last edited by Shmee on 05-24-2005 05:54 PM, edited 3 times in total.
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Shmee
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 04:27 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Grudge wrote:
Doesn't the US have something like 10% of their adult male population in prison right now?


19% in Ohio.

Pardon me - that's 19% of our TOTAL population...



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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 05-24-2005 04:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Shmee wrote:
WTF is up with this "8-year-not young" shit? Do you mean 8 year-not young?

Jesus.


It'll come to you soon enough.
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