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Topic Starter Topic: EU constitution
Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 10:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Is it shit or not?

I heard it doesn't mention god, and some biblethumpers were offended by that. Is it really an impressive document?
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MKJ
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 11:51 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


it better not mention god. this is a constitution written in the 21st century for cock's sake. having yer country run in the name of god is so passe



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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yes, it is 2005. For god sake's, leave the references to religion out of your constitution. kthnx.



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Canidae
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:03 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Yes, it is 2005. For god sake's, leave the references to religion out of your constitution. kthnx.


Arab countries too?
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MKJ
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:08 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Canidae wrote:
Massive Quasars wrote:
Yes, it is 2005. For god sake's, leave the references to religion out of your constitution. kthnx.


Arab countries too?


cause they are european, indeed



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MKJ
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:11 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Yes, it is 2005. For god sake's, leave the references to religion out of your constitution. kthnx.


you know what i mean
obviously it should say summat like "everyone has a right to choose his own religion, or none".
but to have something like "everyone should live life with a devotion for God" or summat like current constitutions do - which were written in the dark ages, mostly - is just homophobic, IMO >:E
hence the phrase "having your country run in the name of god is so passe"

(these constitutional laws are totally fictious, of course. just trying to get a point across)



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Last edited by MKJ on 02-22-2005 12:16 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Ryoki
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I for one know shit about it, and blame the EU propaganda institutions of failure to educate the masses.



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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


MKJ wrote:
you know what i mean
obviously it should say summat like "everyone has a right to choose his own religion, or none".
but to have something like "everyone should live life with a devotion for God" or summat like current constitutions do - which were written in the dark ages, mostly - is just homophobic, IMO >:E
hence the phrase "having your country run in the name of god is so passe"

(these constitutional laws are totally fictious, of course. just trying to get a point across)


I'm not ridiculing you. I'd prefer no mention of god in the constitution. I'd like to see a strict seperation of religion and state.
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MKJ
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:21 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
I'm not ridiculing you. I'd prefer no mention of god in the constitution. I'd like to see a strict seperation of religion and state.


oh in that case, hail
i thought you were being sarcastic, with the "kthx" at the end and "not having references to religion for the sake of god" ;)



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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 12:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Canidae wrote:
Arab countries too?


Sure. I don't think the US can force it on them though.
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Pext
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 01:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


europe is great :icon14:

we just need to convince the brits of it and things will start rolling :icon14:
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 01:51 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki wrote:
I for one know shit about it, and blame the EU propaganda institutions of failure to educate the masses.


Truth. How the hell am I supposed to form an opinion and vote about something of which I don't even know what it means
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Canidae
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 01:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Ryoki wrote:
I for one know shit about it, and blame the EU propaganda institutions of failure to educate the masses.


Truth. How the hell am I supposed to form an opinion and vote about something of which I don't even know what it means


Maybe you're not...
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 01:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pext wrote:
europe is great :icon14:

we just need to convince the brits of it and things will start rolling :icon14:


Europe is good, not great.

They don't always respect individual freedoms. Also the EU economy is somewhat stagnant. I joke about lazy socialism, but I'm not that far off the mark.
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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 01:54 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nobody really cares about the god stuff. God lives at the church for 99.999999 of all european people.

The really scary issue is that a constitution would be another step towards the political union.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 01:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The German economy contracted by 0.2% recently.



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Pext
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 01:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
The German economy contracted by 0.2% recently.


your penis contracted by 50% recently

actually the growth of economy was .2% smaller than last year...




Last edited by Pext on 02-22-2005 02:03 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 02:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
The German economy contracted by 0.2% recently.


You start taking your mongoloid brother to dates and see how much pussy you'll get.
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Eraser
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 02:02 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Canidae wrote:
Eraser wrote:
Ryoki wrote:
I for one know shit about it, and blame the EU propaganda institutions of failure to educate the masses.


Truth. How the hell am I supposed to form an opinion and vote about something of which I don't even know what it means


Maybe you're not...


I am. Here in the Netherlands they're going to hold a referendum among the Dutch people to see what we want, just like they did in Spain. But I'm not going to vote because I know fuckall about that constitution.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 02:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Read up Eraser, and decide. There is this internet.



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Pext
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 02:05 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Pext wrote:
europe is great :icon14:

we just need to convince the brits of it and things will start rolling :icon14:


Europe is good, not great.

They don't always respect individual freedoms.


hm... i had no problems so far. what are you talking about in detail?
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 02:09 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


SplishSplash wrote:
Massive Quasars wrote:
The German economy contracted by 0.2% recently.


You start taking your mongoloid brother to dates and see how much pussy you'll get.


Wtf is up with you two? Closet socialists? (edit: jk, I know splish gets pissed off when I make fun of him.)

Pext, I'll check again.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... nomygrowth

I'm not sure, but essentially the German economy is flat atm.




Last edited by Massive Quasars on 02-22-2005 02:15 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 02:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I don't see any god stuff in there, but I haven't read the whole thing....

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/aug ... partI1.pdf
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 02:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pext wrote:
hm... i had no problems so far. what are you talking about in detail?


Laws infringing on freedom of speech over offensive remarks, political correctness gone too far.

The french law banning the wearing of muslim hijab in government institutions.

Various issues relating to supplement rights.

etc.
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Pext
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 03:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


hm . i think perception of what is important for individual freedom is different - actually the banning of the hijab - and christian crosses as well - in official places was established to protect everyones right to have his own religion. as the government must remain neutral for this concern, his employees are not to display their beliefs while at duty.
... - it was immanuel kant who stated, that freedom needs strict separation of government and religion.

same goes for the perception of democracy, as mane europeans would call the us election system undemocratic
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 03:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The US is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic.

I think Europe will impose what it believes are policies for the societal good at the cost of individual freedoms.



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Postal
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 03:12 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It's better than policies aimed at the good of a few people at the cost of individual freedoms.

: /
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Pext
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 03:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


the reason is that in europe, social safeness is considered a higher good than individual freedoms ( i'm not implying that it would be a binary choice!). the origins of americas high valuation of individual freedoms are certainly the 'new land' situation, the first settlers faced; the situation they came from when they built up their state.
in europe on the other hand, democracy took a long way to develop and had many stones in it's way. so europe's economy and especially it's form of capitalism started out hand in hand with potent monarchs and immediately lived through 2 major leftist movements: the french revolution and socialism, each influencing it quite a bit. europe did not have a liberal and individual base for economic development to a high degree as the US had it - but on the other hand europe never had the cruel monster of unleashed capitalism, with all it's ambivalence, as Steinbeck describes it in The Grapes of Wrath.

you can't see europe's/US mind culture without looking at the origins

in europe, a safe position of wealth is considered higher then individual rights; and accumulation of wealth. europe certainly adopted a few virtues of socialism - that's why especially germany's economic system is called social maket economy. but it's slowly getting 'americanized' as we would say here.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 03:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


http://www.heritage.org/research/featur ... ntries.cfm
http://www.heritage.org/research/featur ... id=Germany

Germany is indeed becoming more friendly to business, thanks to Schroeder I suppose.
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Pext
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 03:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


people are complaining though :smirk:

- the problem here is that it's nearly impossible for a government to scrap the old, patchwork system and build a new one. this is why there is quite a bit confusion about the situation even here.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 03:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Are people complaining because they are so dependent on the government? What do east germans think?

If you look on the list, Canada is economically more free than Germany. Our economic success though, is largely tied to the US, as with their prosperity in the 90's. When the US economy went to shit under Bush, Canada wasn't as badly effected (if I recall). I think we're still doing well as the US economy is improving now.
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Pext
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 04:01 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


people are complaining because the economy friendly atmosphere is made - as they state - at the cost of social performances; i.e. decreasing unemployment benefit and welfare.

it really is a bit of a battle between socialist tendencies to take much from those who have much (VAT, inheritance tax) and to lower the costs for the poor...
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Ryoki
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 04:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
The french law banning the wearing of muslim hijab in government institutions.


I hate how this law has become known as the banning of headscarves. The law bans any public display of any religion in goverment institutions - not just muslims are the 'victim' here. France is a republic and thus it's only logical her public servants should act according to one of it's founding principles; the seperation of church and state.

Racist? Imposing one culture on other cultures? Bullshit. If you don't agree with it, don't work for the goverment or use their institutions.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 04:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki, I believe this policy is in place in public schools and universities.
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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 04:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Laws infringing on freedom of speech over offensive remarks, political correctness gone too far.


Last time I checked, kids didn't get arrested in school for drawing violent pictures in Europe. Last time I checked, we had something similar to independent media.

It is true that in Germany I can't say "Auschwitz is a lie". So what? When would I say that anyways? I can say anything else though, including "IMO, George Bush is a repressed homosexual who starts wars to make up for his tiny penis.". Try saying that in an American school and then tell me about the lack of freedom in Europe. (I could say that in a German school about Gerhard Schröder and nothing would happen.)

Also, our teachers do not have the freedom to teach 'creationism'.
Oh, how I miss that freedom!

And we can't legally own guns (at least not without a lot of hassle).
Oh no, I'm don't have the freedom of getting shot!

In Germany, I will not get sued for rape just because I had sex with a 16-year-old, or because I had sex with an intoxicated woman.
Where, did you say, did we take political correctness too far?

Teachers can't wear their headscarfs in school? Well GREAT, because I think it's safe to assume that any teacher who is THAT crazy about wearing a headscarf is probably crazy in several other departments as well.
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