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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 04:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Splish ffs, I'm not comparing Germany to the US. The US is pretty fucked up in many ways.

I was strictly criticising Europe, and only Europe, not comparing it to other nations.

Freedom is not freedom if it isn't for all citizens. It's not that I like hijabs, I simply support the right of women to wear them if they choose. What's the problem?



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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 04:57 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Also, students aren't allowed to wear hijabs either.



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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 04:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Also, students aren't allowed to wear hijabs either.


That must be France only.
I can't really say I disapprove. They're symbols of suppression, plain and simple.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:05 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


SplishSplash wrote:
That must be France only.
I can't really say I disapprove. They're symbols of suppression, plain and simple.


What about religious freedom? Anti-religious policies don't exterminate religious beliefs, they send them underground. This attitude of apathy toward government restrictions because they don't affect you, is unhealthy.
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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'm not apathetic, I approve.
I also approve of many other restrictions, some or even most of them affecting me directly.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


We'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't believe in the tyranny of majority rule on the minority.



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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You prefer to believe in the tyranny of religion and sexism.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:31 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


No. Religion looses it's influence in free and progressive societies. I don't think we should impose anti-religious policies. I support the right of women to wear hijabs, that's not at all sexist. Rape and discriminations laws already exist to deal with those issues.

I support academic freedom of speech, and individual freedoms.
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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah, only we have no proof that Islam will lose it's influence in a laissez-faire environment. Right now, it definitely seems like the opposite is true.

And what looks to you like "the freedom to wear headscarfs" is really just the freedom of their families to make them wear headscarfs or beat the crap out of them.
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SplishSplash
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:35 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


night night
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-22-2005 05:39 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


alright nite then, ttyl



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Ryoki
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Ryoki, I believe this policy is in place in public schools and universities.


Yes, public institutions, built with tax money.
What's your point?
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


you're not getting the point MQ - it's not anit-religious policies; everybody is free to express his religion - but not in duty
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:18 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Students can't wear hijabs there. That is my point. I don't care that it's a government institution, some people have no alternative but to go to public schools.

The majority should not impose arbitrary dress code upon everyone. The exception being perhaps for obscene clothing, or clothing that reveals too much in public.



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Ryoki
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Freedom is not freedom if it isn't for all citizens. It's not that I like hijabs, I simply support the right of women to wear them if they choose. What's the problem?


I don’t think you understand… the law doesn’t forbid people to wear religious symbols altogether, it forbids wear of them in public, government funded institutions. People are as free to do whatever they please at home and on the streets as they ever were. If they feel they must display their religious symbols 24/7, then fine!

Just don’t do it in the role of a public servant, or in a public institution, because that eats away at the credibility of the entire system.
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Ryoki
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Students can't wear hijabs there. That is my point. I don't care that it's a government institution, some people have no alternative but to go to public schools.

The majority should not impose arbitrary dress code upon everyone. The exception being perhaps for obscene clothing, or clothing that reveals too much in public.


What about clothing that reveals too little in public? A headscarve (you're still using only this as an example btw, which i find a little biased, but no matter) shields the ears and eyes - how can i as a teacher be sure someone is paying attention if i can't see their face?

Also; it's a matter of principles. If i were a catholic girl and i decided to go to a muslim school I very much doubt I’d be allowed to not wear a headscarve and skip prayers. Hell, they probably wouldn’t even accept me because of my religion.




Last edited by Ryoki on 02-23-2005 01:33 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'm trying to reply but my POS computer is lagging badly....



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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki wrote:
What about clothing that reveals too little in public? A headscarve (you're still using only this as an example btw, which i find a little biased, but no matter) shields the ears and eyes - how can i as a teacher be sure someone is paying attention if i can't see their face?


I've seen 3 types of hijabs or muslim headresses, one reveals the full face, the other reveals just the eyes, and the third (in afghanistan) reveals nothing of the head. In the last case, an exception could be made because the argument could be raised that it hinders the student's ability to participate in class and therefore must be removed (or replaced with a less obtrusive version).
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:42 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


actually the main thing about the constitution is not religion.

firstly it actually is the fact that it is the first real step into forming a european nation.
furthermore the introduction of a european foreign minister that is actually in control of a european military force, the eurocorps, is definately a sign of europe's will to display it's interrests.
- and there are some additional changes towards a pan-european government; but there is still a need for more of a shift from constenting governments in european council towards a more democratic system with a strong parliament. recent developments included a testing of the parliaments possibilities when they forced the councils composition, that included some controversial candidates - one of them beeing a catholic harldliner openly displaying discrimination of homosexuals and repression of women regarding their role in marriage - to be reconsidered.
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Ryoki
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 01:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah you’re right, it's a bit of a flawed argument - the type that reveals most of the face is the most common one here.

It's just that i find it worrysome that atheists and non fundamental religious types (the vast majority of the population) always have to consider the feelings of relifreaks whilst they completely and totally ignore our principles and cry racism every time they feel their religion is in peril. Again, noones forcing them to go to public schools, if they feel they must wear their religious symbols they are free to do so in their own private schools.



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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 02-23-2005 09:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Again, they often have no choice but to go to public school because they may not be able to afford private school.

Your point about being forced to bend over backwards for these religious people is not lost on me. Their religious beliefs shouldn't interfere with the rights and freedoms of other individuals in that society.

Non-religious people should not be fined or jailed for being openly critical of certain religions. Van Gogh, for example, had every right to speak his mind in a country that claimed to be free. Realistically he should have expected threats from islamic people as a result, but it's the government's job to protect citizens and their right to speak freely.



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