Quake3World.com Forums
     General Discussion
        Universe shaped like dodecahedron? Kracus read this.
Post new topicReply to topic
Login | Profile | | FAQ | Search | IRC




Previous topic | Next topic 
Topic Starter Topic: 
boo
Bbbllrrrrzzppp!!
Bbbllrrrrzzppp!!
Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 240
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Insideout boy!



_________________
Would you like some OJ?
Top
                 
saturn
oldskool
oldskool
Joined: 06 Mar 2000
Posts: 40788
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 01:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


boo wrote:
so if we enter another dimension, were going to be streched 4 ways?

Dont think I like the sound that.


Doesn't time expand your beerbelly?
Top
                 
Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:01 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.
if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?



Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...



First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).



Well the more I think about it the more I find my theory on gravity making sense which would fit this into the picture.

Basicly the universe is expanding because gravity is exerting a sort of pressure (it's not really pressure but actualy gravity) it just has the same kind of effect as pressure, like water pressure or air pressure.

Basicly this gravity/pressure is what's keeping all matter together, causing orbits etc etc... which we know gravity does anyway. The reason, I beleive, is because the gravity is caused by the inner walls of the universe on everything else, kinda like air getting compressed in a can. IF the can had the property to expand then the pressured air inside the can would cause it to expand given enough pressure.

This is what I think happens with gravity. If gravity is great enough it causes the walls of the universe to expand, which is what I muse might be happening. The reason we feel it in reverse makes perfect sense. It's like high pressure in a balloon causing the balloon to expand even though there's compressed air in the balloon. I wish I could draw you a picture of what it would look like but I swear it really does make a little sense when you sit down and try to figure out what I really mean. It's a strange theory for sure but pretty logical.

Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed so if the universe IS expanding because of gravity then it's likely they are traveling at the same speed and I mean what other force in the universe could cause it to expand?

It'd certainly not be an explosion, or any kind of compression because it dies off much too quickly AND we would be able to measure or at least see it in the unvierse today if this were the case. I think gravity is the key.
Top
                 
Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Oh and as for infinite mass.... we are talking about the whole universe which is technicly... all mass. :p
Top
                 
dmmh
Elite
Elite
Joined: 04 Jan 2001
Posts: 28249
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:16 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


saturn wrote:
We're in a 3d visualized world (or that's how we humans perceive it). Some say time is the 4th dimension, it's very subjective though. You can measure time but it's only heading one way.

Actually, you can add any parameter you want and say it's a new dimension.


plus...time is just a concept made up by mankind...imagine a world without it.......



_________________
And shepherds we shall be, for thee my Lord for thee, Power hath descended forth from thy hand, that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command, we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In nomine patris, et fili, et spiritus sancti.
Top
                 
inphlict
eminent
eminent
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 9004
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:20 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


This is the 5th dimention

Image

4th is exactly the same except it's missing 2 of the cubes.
Top
                 
Nightshade
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 27667
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:24 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed



Wrong. Light has a finite speed, gravity is instantaneous action at a distance.
Top
                 
inphlict
eminent
eminent
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 9004
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:25 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Image
Top
                 
saturn
oldskool
oldskool
Joined: 06 Mar 2000
Posts: 40788
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:29 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.
if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?



Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...



First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).



Well the more I think about it the more I find my theory on gravity making sense which would fit this into the picture.

Basicly the universe is expanding because gravity is exerting a sort of pressure (it's not really pressure but actualy gravity) it just has the same kind of effect as pressure, like water pressure or air pressure.

Basicly this gravity/pressure is what's keeping all matter together, causing orbits etc etc... which we know gravity does anyway. The reason, I beleive, is because the gravity is caused by the inner walls of the universe on everything else, kinda like air getting compressed in a can. IF the can had the property to expand then the pressured air inside the can would cause it to expand given enough pressure.

This is what I think happens with gravity. If gravity is great enough it causes the walls of the universe to expand, which is what I muse might be happening. The reason we feel it in reverse makes perfect sense. It's like high pressure in a balloon causing the balloon to expand even though there's compressed air in the balloon. I wish I could draw you a picture of what it would look like but I swear it really does make a little sense when you sit down and try to figure out what I really mean. It's a strange theory for sure but pretty logical.

Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed so if the universe IS expanding because of gravity then it's likely they are traveling at the same speed and I mean what other force in the universe could cause it to expand?

It'd certainly not be an explosion, or any kind of compression because it dies off much too quickly AND we would be able to measure or at least see it in the unvierse today if this were the case. I think gravity is the key.


Have you ever heard of other fundamental forces? Gravity is one, but there's also:

Strong force - keeping the nucleus together
Electromagnetic - photons
Weak Force

You can look it up here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... unfor.html

It's not being an ass, but how many years of physics did you had on high school?
Top
                 
saturn
oldskool
oldskool
Joined: 06 Mar 2000
Posts: 40788
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


dmmh wrote:
saturn wrote:
We're in a 3d visualized world (or that's how we humans perceive it). Some say time is the 4th dimension, it's very subjective though. You can measure time but it's only heading one way.

Actually, you can add any parameter you want and say it's a new dimension.


plus...time is just a concept made up by mankind...imagine a world without it.......


Time quantifies the interval between events. I think it's more than a concept of humankind, though we all experience it in a subjectively way. If there's no interval between events, all things would happen at the same time, there's no cause and effect. That would be an interesting mind-experiment to think about ;p
Top
                 
GONNAFISTYA
Glayven?
Glayven?
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 13025
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Maybe time is the 5th natural force and not a dimension?

Like I said...good weed.

Now I know what it's like to be sucrak....blasted all day dreamin of the lead pipe.
Top
                 
Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 02:54 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
saturn wrote:
Kracus wrote:
I find it extremely strange that they state they can see repeating patterns that are slightly rotated though cause if the reasons they list are correct then that'd mean they are looking at the edge of our universe which means a few things.

A: the unvierse is not expanding since they can see it.

B: the universe IS expanding but slower than the speed of light which I find hard to beleive.

C: They are seeing repeating patterns because there are so MANY things in the universe that it's simply normal for things to repeat themselves just like a normal fractal pattern which many things in nature seem to go by...

I dunno... all in all it'd be a strange discovery. It'd be like finding out you live in the matrix or something stupid.
if you're talking about the ripple that was left after the big bang, it had an finite size which couldn't be bigger than the initial universe.

Doesn't mean the universe is not expanding.

Why can't the universe expand slower than lightspeed?



Well I don't think it can because something would have to set whatever the maximum speed is in the universe. I think that thing is gravity since both travel at the same speed and it'd make sense because gravity is probably what makes light move.

Now if the universe is expanding, it's also likely gravity is causing this expansion, which should mean the universe SHOULD be expanding at the same speed as light assuming gravity's full effect would be on the outter edges of the universe.

I realize the universe might not be expanding at the same speed as gravity pulls/pushes but it'd make a sort of logical sense if it did...



First of all, gravity causing expansion is weird, it would rather cause a collapse. Secondly, why would it have to move at light speed, it could be moving towards lightspeed, but there's the initial inertia and acceleration. Traveling at lightspeed would mean infinite mass (if you're still Einsteinian).



Well the more I think about it the more I find my theory on gravity making sense which would fit this into the picture.

Basicly the universe is expanding because gravity is exerting a sort of pressure (it's not really pressure but actualy gravity) it just has the same kind of effect as pressure, like water pressure or air pressure.

Basicly this gravity/pressure is what's keeping all matter together, causing orbits etc etc... which we know gravity does anyway. The reason, I beleive, is because the gravity is caused by the inner walls of the universe on everything else, kinda like air getting compressed in a can. IF the can had the property to expand then the pressured air inside the can would cause it to expand given enough pressure.

This is what I think happens with gravity. If gravity is great enough it causes the walls of the universe to expand, which is what I muse might be happening. The reason we feel it in reverse makes perfect sense. It's like high pressure in a balloon causing the balloon to expand even though there's compressed air in the balloon. I wish I could draw you a picture of what it would look like but I swear it really does make a little sense when you sit down and try to figure out what I really mean. It's a strange theory for sure but pretty logical.

Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed so if the universe IS expanding because of gravity then it's likely they are traveling at the same speed and I mean what other force in the universe could cause it to expand?

It'd certainly not be an explosion, or any kind of compression because it dies off much too quickly AND we would be able to measure or at least see it in the unvierse today if this were the case. I think gravity is the key.


Have you ever heard of other fundamental forces? Gravity is one, but there's also:

Strong force - keeping the nucleus together
Electromagnetic - photons
Weak Force

You can look it up here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... unfor.html

It's not being an ass, but how many years of physics did you had on high school?


I'm not thinking you were being an ass. At high school I failed physics, and had to take the same basic physics class (which was only 1) twice. I readily admit that my knowledge in this area is completely newbish but some of the things I think of I can actualy picture in my head and I don't know how to describe it but it just makes sense.

The reason I like discussing them is because it develops an idea. Sometimes I'm very wrong because of reasons I don't know, but if I know that I'll work with that in mind the next time.

Nightshade, I'm positive I've heard both travel at the same speed if travel is a word you can apply to gravity. I've heard of tests done by Einstein I beleive about light traveling from the sun to earth and that both gravity and light are in relation... Anyway, I'll try to see if I can find some info on what I mean instead of trying to explain it.

There is one thing though that you said that I've always suspected but hadn't mentioned yet cause I could quite figure out an explanation for it but what you call strong force is exactly what I think you mean.

I was thinking that nothing is what keeps everything together because of gravity exerting a force on everything sort of pushing everything together, the source of this force as I've tried to explain before is caused by the inside walls of the universe applying gravity to everything. Kinda the same way pressure works, compressed air vs non compressed air in a balloon.

However, the closer you get to the fabric of the universe this force changes and apply's in a similar but different manner. I have ideas to explain this but nothing really coherent yet. :icon30:
Top
                 
dzjepp
It felt good...
It felt good...
Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 9558
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 03:42 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just wait till tnf comes in here and tells you all that you all sound like the students he teaches... wanting to think 'outside the box' but not having the scientific knowhow to really understand it. :icon26:
Top
                 
Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 03:44 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yea I've heard that one a few times. :p
Top
                 
Guest
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 04:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade:

Here's exactly what I mean by the speed of light being equal to the speed of gravity. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3232
Top
                 
HM-PuFFNSTuFF
Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
Joined: 01 Mar 2001
Posts: 19998
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 10:00 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


bumped for mq
Top
                 
Massive Quasars
.
.
Joined: 15 Dec 2000
Posts: 10168
PostPosted: 02-14-2005 10:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade, gravity isn't instantaneous action at a distance.
Top
                 
MKJ
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Joined: 24 Nov 2000
Posts: 44139
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 12:14 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


now youve set kracus off with all his "knowledge" which isnt backed up by any thought whatsoever

oh and about the 3+ dimension. apart from saying the 4th dimension is considered 'time' (length, width, depth, duration), much of astronomy revolves about both the number "i" and a whole lot of extra dimensions - the 7th dimension is not uncommon

[edit] oops



_________________
Image
Top
                 
Nightshade
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 27667
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:14 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
Nightshade, gravity isn't instantaneous action at a distance.


Oh really? I hope you've got a good explanation for that.
Top
                 
glossy
Elite
Elite
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 6222
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


to everyone who's saying "being at the edge of the universe and being in two places at once is wierd and impossible!" don't think about it like that, because you can only ever be in one place at once (barring obscure photon observation theories):

In most versions of top-down computer games will have you in the centre of the screen while the universe keeps moving. in this game universe, if one edge of the universe looped around, you wouldn't notice -- you'd simply keep walking and cross the 'border'. there is no 'border' to the universe -- it's all just moving around you (since you're the one observing it)
Top
                 
U4EA
i liek boobies
i liek boobies
Joined: 26 Nov 2000
Posts: 11930
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yes. Because the universe is modelled after video games.

:icon27:
Top
                 
glossy
Elite
Elite
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 6222
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:29 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


no, because the people i am explaining this to have most likely played video games, and the example i used models the theory extremely well.

:dork:
Top
                 
U4EA
i liek boobies
i liek boobies
Joined: 26 Nov 2000
Posts: 11930
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:30 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Maybe I should have read the article before posting.

:icon27:
Top
                 
MKJ
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
Joined: 24 Nov 2000
Posts: 44139
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:31 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


i see philisophyclass is open



_________________
Image
Top
                 
glossy
Elite
Elite
Joined: 29 Apr 2002
Posts: 6222
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:36 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


maybe you should

:dork:
Top
                 
Massive Quasars
.
.
Joined: 15 Dec 2000
Posts: 10168
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 03:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade wrote:
Massive Quasars wrote:
Nightshade, gravity isn't instantaneous action at a distance.


Oh really? I hope you've got a good explanation for that.


As opposed to what? Gravity's effects are not instantaneous, what explanation are you looking for? :confused:

Kracus gave you a link that states just that.
Top
                 
Nightshade
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 27667
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 04:08 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Whoa, that's news to me. Everything I'd learned to this point had always shown that it was indeed instantaneous.
Nifty.



_________________
Nightshade[no u]
Top
                 
SplishSplash
BLARG
BLARG
Joined: 03 Dec 2000
Posts: 11229
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 05:58 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Couldn't be instantaneous because of the whole faster-than-light deal and everything.
Top
                 
Nightshade
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 27667
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 06:04 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Right, I understand that. I was under the impression that gravitons were considered massless.
Gravity is something that I've only studied briefly, and certainly haven't been keeping abreast of developments like the one Krasuc posted.



_________________
Nightshade[no u]
Top
                 
Transient
Arrr?
Arrr?
Joined: 09 Feb 2001
Posts: 35461
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 06:17 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade wrote:
Kracus wrote:
Anyway gravity and the speed of light travel at the same speed



Wrong. Light has a finite speed, gravity is instantaneous action at a distance.


I thought gravity had a speed?

edit: or maybe that was just a theory I was reading about
edit edit: upon further thought, I think I remember hearing that it's so monumentally fast (the propogation of gravity) that it's not worth bothering to try to measure, since it doesn't hurt calculations to assume it's instantaneous
edit edit edit: just saw Kracus' link, I'll be damned...



_________________
YourGrandpa wrote:
I'm satisfied with voicing my opinion and moving on.
Top
                 
mik0rs
Banned
Banned
Joined: 02 May 2000
Posts: 12808
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 10:59 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


GONNAFISTYA wrote:
The universe is jewish?


:icon19:



_________________
Image
Top
                 
Guest
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 12:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Did I own someone today? :icon25:
Top
                 
saturn
oldskool
oldskool
Joined: 06 Mar 2000
Posts: 40788
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 12:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


your own mind
Top
                 
GONNAFISTYA
Glayven?
Glayven?
Joined: 23 Jan 2005
Posts: 13025
PostPosted: 02-15-2005 12:16 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Unless you're jewish I think not.
Top
                 
Quake3World.com | Forum Index | General Discussion


Post new topic Reply to topic


cron
Quake3World.com
© ZeniMax. Zenimax, QUAKE III ARENA, Id Software and associated trademarks are trademarks of the ZeniMax group of companies. All rights reserved.
This is an unofficial fan website without any affiliation with or endorsement by ZeniMax.
All views and opinions expressed are those of the author.