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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 02:01 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I was thinking about artificial intelligence a moment ago and I realized that the problem with the idea of a computer being self aware for a lot people is the fact that it has no soul so to speak.

This can be interpreted as having no emotions because I beleive what we perceive as the definition of having a soul really equates to our emotions having a certain control on our thoughts. Those emotions are things like being happy or sad might cause you to do two very different things which is controlled by chemicals in your body. Chemicals that really only affect you because of your biological makeup.

Our biological components essentialy gives us our perceived intelligence. However when one thinks about just that subject alone you come to realize that perhaps you are not in control but rather your emotions and instincts are. Really, freedom of thought is the freedom to do what you wish when you wish to but would you ever try to jump off a 100 story building? Perhaps if the right emotions were in control of your body.

My point is that in our attempts so far to really create an artificial intelligence we haven't yet been able to really create any kind of emotion in a computer. Those biological impulses and chemicals are cruicial but if you can never influence a computers thoughts with any type of emotion what are you left with?

In humans anyway you tend to have very suicidal individuals. Perhaps natures design to make sure this doesn't happen in evolution to avoid something unwanted. Unemotional beings don't belong in the universe. Even the smallest insects have similar behaviors for it's particular species.

So perhaps, to create an artificial intelligence we should first be looking at how to create a shell or structure to implant the code that represents free thought that's affected by the structures instructions. The Mind or AI determins what to do but the structure places demands on the AI giving the AI a goal. Along with this could be basic survival "instincts" automaticaly programed into the AI.

The shell would imput demands in a similar fashion as our body's do to us in terms of hunger, thirst, happiness, etc...
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Don Carlos
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 02:05 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus, the way as far as im aware of AI ebing messured us the answered it gives to questions?
In my opinion it is impossible for AI to recreat human emotion because AI is based on Logic. Humans lose Logic somethimes and go on instinct. Think I, Robot if you will? :)



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Canis
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 02:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus needs to write some form of a biological philosophy book.
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GONNAFISTYA
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 02:18 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yes....one published on a roll of ass-wipe.
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Canis
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 02:22 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'd wipe my ass with it. I'd even go so far as to think of Kracus when I do so...
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saturn
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 02:32 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


what a load of crap
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Massive Quasars
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:12 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


saturn wrote:
what a load of crap


quite
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Transient
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


1) The idea of the soul is brought on by religion.
2) Religion is bullshit.
3) Therefore, _______ is bullshit.

Fill in the blank.

edit: Hint: the answer is not "Transient" :dork:




Last edited by Transient on 05-10-2005 03:54 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Canis
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
1) The idea of the soul is brought on by religion.
2) Religion is bullshit.
3) Therefore, _______ is bullshit.

Fill in the blank.


"Transient"?....no...wait...."Kracus"?...hmm...
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Whiskey 7
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:51 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:



....... My point is that in our attempts so far to really create an artificial intelligence we haven't yet been able to really create any kind of emotion in a computer. Those biological impulses and chemicals are cruicial but if you can never influence a computers thoughts with any type of emotion what are you left with?




Exactly. I do believe emotions are chemically based.

We thankfully are a long way from a meaningful releationships with computers :)



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Transient
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Canis wrote:
Transient wrote:
1) The idea of the soul is brought on by religion.
2) Religion is bullshit.
3) Therefore, _______ is bullshit.

Fill in the blank.


"Transient"?....no...wait...."Kracus"?...hmm...


:icon32:
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Guest
PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah that wasn't really the point of my post. My point was that to have a good working AI the AI needs an exterior device to imput demands on the AI in the same way our bodies do to us in terms of hunger and basic needs.
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mjrpes
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You know, as much as Kracus's posts are filled with meandering bullshit, he does have enough common courtesy to divide them up into nicely sized paragraphs.



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Transient
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Before we think about AI, we need some way to truly allow computers to do randomized things.



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Transient
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 03:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


mjrpes wrote:
You know, as much as Kracus's posts are filled with meandering bullshit, he does have enough common courtesy to divide them up into nicely sized paragraphs.


He didn't a few years ago. :/
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Tormentius
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 04:10 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
1) The idea of the soul is brought on by religion.
2) Religion is bullshit.
3) Therefore, _______ is bullshit.

Fill in the blank.

edit: Hint: the answer is not "Transient" :dork:


Transient or Kracus are the only answers we can readily prove :p .




Last edited by Tormentius on 05-10-2005 04:13 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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^misantropia^
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 04:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
Before we think about AI, we need some way to truly allow computers to do randomized things.


Uh, why?
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 04:17 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Kracus wrote:
stuff


The idea of emotions being involved in intelligence is actually not far-fetched at all.

I'm reading a book by Antonio Damasio called Descartes' Error, subtitled: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

Also took a course on AI last semester with a prof who wrote a book called "The Rationality of Emotion"


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846


From what I can gather, one of the elements of the idea is that you need emotion to act as a heuristic mechanism in decision making.

If we were to be purely "logical", we'd be paralyzed in decision making since there are an infinite number of branches of possibilities to consider. Emotional processing can "prune" some of these branches to make things efficient.

However, it's important not to fall into the trap of assigning "emotions" an immunity from determinism. Our brains evolve from one state to the next just as the state of an ocean evolves from one moment to the next. Emotions, thoughts, decisions, actions are all subject to this unfolding of reality.

Emotions are a biological phenomenon - systems within the brain are what are responsible for emotional functioning.

Moreoever, according to Damasio's "somatic marker hypothesis", is that emotions are manifest somatically. Somatically here refers to the sensations elicited by activity within the somatosensory cortex. Included here are touch sensations, and visceral sensations. An example of a visceral sensation would be the feeling of butterflies in your stomach/chest you experience in extreme fear or happiness. What defines one emotional experience from the next, is in part the array of somatic sensations involved.

Now as for the issue of what it means to feel these sensations, that's basically grappling with the so called "hard question" of consciousness. Daniel Dennett is a leading thinker within the western philosophical/scientific tradition on this issue. He considers the so called hard problem to based on a misguided intuition. Damasio, among others express similar sentiments.

I think the idea is toward something of an "embodied mind". Still trying to grapple with the idea myself.
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mjrpes
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 04:25 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
...Daniel Dennett...


Wasn't there a thread here a while back that linked to a talk he gave about mimes?
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[xeno]Julios
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 04:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


mimes?

memes you mean?

there's a full length video interview with him on http://www.meaningoflife.tv
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HM-PuFFNSTuFF
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 05:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol
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mjrpes
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 05:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


ah, that's it. thx julios.
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Guest
PostPosted: 05-10-2005 05:26 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
Kracus wrote:
stuff


The idea of emotions being involved in intelligence is actually not far-fetched at all.

I'm reading a book by Antonio Damasio called Descartes' Error, subtitled: Emotion, Reason, and the Human Brain

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846

Also took a course on AI last semester with a prof who wrote a book called "The Rationality of Emotion"


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... s&n=507846


From what I can gather, one of the elements of the idea is that you need emotion to act as a heuristic mechanism in decision making.

If we were to be purely "logical", we'd be paralyzed in decision making since there are an infinite number of branches of possibilities to consider. Emotional processing can "prune" some of these branches to make things efficient.

However, it's important not to fall into the trap of assigning "emotions" an immunity from determinism. Our brains evolve from one state to the next just as the state of an ocean evolves from one moment to the next. Emotions, thoughts, decisions, actions are all subject to this unfolding of reality.

Emotions are a biological phenomenon - systems within the brain are what are responsible for emotional functioning.

Moreoever, according to Damasio's "somatic marker hypothesis", is that emotions are manifest somatically. Somatically here refers to the sensations elicited by activity within the somatosensory cortex. Included here are touch sensations, and visceral sensations. An example of a visceral sensation would be the feeling of butterflies in your stomach/chest you experience in extreme fear or happiness. What defines one emotional experience from the next, is in part the array of somatic sensations involved.

Now as for the issue of what it means to feel these sensations, that's basically grappling with the so called "hard question" of consciousness. Daniel Dennett is a leading thinker within the western philosophical/scientific tradition on this issue. He considers the so called hard problem to based on a misguided intuition. Damasio, among others express similar sentiments.

I think the idea is toward something of an "embodied mind". Still trying to grapple with the idea myself.


Actualy yeah that's basicly what I'm saying.

It's true though that the idea that your emotions are really in control of you is kinda gloomy. It opens up a lot of deterministic views again in a way I hadn't really contemplated but it is very disturbing to think that our reality is really determined by our universe in a strange way.

Cause the universe affects everything, you know, it basicly contains everything. Those things contained affect each other. We has humans possessing senses see, feel, hear, smell and taste some of these changes which in effect causes our minds to interpret and react to them. Without all these connections we're really nothing. It's almost like we're part of a greater whole or inanimate objects interacting with other inanimate objects. Ecxept we don't realize it.
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 11:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


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MKJ
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PostPosted: 05-10-2005 11:54 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


the simplest way to explain why there is no real AI yet (and will prolly take a while), is because a computer doesnt know a "maybe", only "yes" and "no".



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^misantropia^
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PostPosted: 05-11-2005 02:52 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


MKJ wrote:
the simplest way to explain why there is no real AI yet (and will prolly take a while), is because a computer doesnt know a "maybe", only "yes" and "no".


There's always fuzzy logic of course, but that's just assigning values between m and n (usually zero and one) to desired targets based upon fitness and then picking the highest ranking from the set.
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Pext
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PostPosted: 05-11-2005 04:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


fuzzy logic can be mapped to binary logic. there is no difference between both systems. there is a difference in ease of implementation though.
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xer0s
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PostPosted: 05-06-2016 04:47 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I miss Kracus's random thoughts. So insightful...
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MKJ
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PostPosted: 05-06-2016 05:06 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


yes
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Κracus
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PostPosted: 05-06-2016 08:26 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lulz.... I actually further elaborated on that thought theory by suggesting prosthetics as a solution to AI.

There's been development on prosthetic implants that can either give mice long term memory or even implant new memories they didn't have previously. In the study, they used a maze and somehow programmed the solution to the puzzle in this chip they implanted on the mouse. When they turned it on, the mice knew right away how to get to the cheese, if it was off it took them longer.

If you think about that in terms of a prosthetic, say you have Alzheimers or something, you could get this prosthetic implanted that would give you back your long term memory. Let's assume for a minute that over time, humans will learn to perfect a prosthetic. We did start out with clubs for limbs and now we've got robotic arms, eyes, ears etc. We're slowly getting closer and closer to being able to perfect a prosthetic. Let's assume a bit further and also think of brain functions as potential replaceable prosthetics. You go to the hospital, they put you under, you have an operation that replaces a part of your brain but the piece they fit you with works exactly like the old one. So you wake up and feel no different. Except you're now able to remember properly or you no longer have a headache you used to have.

Over time as more and more of your brain is being replaced with prosthetics you're suddenly more technological than biological and eventually you're entirely technological. At what point in this process do you stop being you and are considered an AI?

It also sheds into question the nature of consciousness and how that works. Is it tied to your body? My thoughts are that it isn't and could potentially be transfered.

Of course that also implies that you're just a collection of labels your brain has attached to itself. Strip those away and are dead or are you someone else? So if labels aren't really who you are then what are you and are you really unique in a sea of other consciousness or are you the sea.
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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 05-06-2016 10:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


TLDR: Make robot brain and upload your own fucked up head into it.

1st up I know memories aren't actually 'stored' in our brain, I'm not a professional but from what I think - it's a pattern of impulses through the neurons, it's those patterns that form our memories and there's no guarantee our brains interprete those patterns the same way as each other.

BUT I always found it fascinating if you could upload your brain to a computer, that can obviously interprate or mimic those impulses. I mean hypothetically speaking if you were to switch it off it would be murder.



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seremtan
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PostPosted: 05-06-2016 10:27 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Memphis wrote:
Worth the bump for the dank mimes.


don't you mean dark mines, welshie?
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DooMer
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PostPosted: 05-10-2016 06:37 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Consciousness is a byproduct of subconscious thoughts. It's there to sort through the tons of data that your brain is processing. Maybe it doesn't really matter if you're biological or not. It's not like you have free will or are even aware of what the fuck is going on most of the time.

http://gizmodo.com/new-time-slice-theor ... 1770950927

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/min ... free-will/
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seremtan
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PostPosted: 05-10-2016 09:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


what do you mean by "free will"?
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losCHUNK
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PostPosted: 05-10-2016 11:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


DooMer wrote:
Consciousness is a byproduct of subconscious thoughts. It's there to sort through the tons of data that your brain is processing. Maybe it doesn't really matter if you're biological or not. It's not like you have free will or are even aware of what the fuck is going on most of the time.

http://gizmodo.com/new-time-slice-theor ... 1770950927

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/min ... free-will/


That's just kinda like saying your mind remembers what's pleasurable though and what causes discomfort ?. Like, a pattern of impulses in the brain are remembered by the interactions it has with the neurons, that release chemicals. Our entire thought process is governed by chemical processes, no different from animals. There's been many theories on what can be classified as higher intelligence, from self awareness to forward thinking, but all (most?) of it can be exhibited in the animal kingdom.

Humans have evolved with higher brain functions and that gave us the evolutionary edge, over the generations it raised our mental capacity to do all the things animals could plus more, we have been bread for the retention of memories because it is these memories that form the way we cook, the way hunt / talk / swim / etc etc and overtime we learned how to store useless shit like algebra in them and refine the way these memories are searched, through better chemical interactions within the brain. Computers are still nowhere near that kind of capacity, and not just in terms of hardware but everything, like, our search algorithms and the entire way they're implemented. Who knows what the future will bring, I mean I can't see why a computer couldn't mimic a human, in the far and distant future, its going to be an evolution process though and weve already made some good progress but it's like theorising about faster than light travel. We won't be seeing any of it regardless.



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