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Topic Starter Topic: Cliffy B states the obvious

Glayven?
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PostPosted: 06-22-2012 09:06 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


'Games have become more linear and easier'

Quote:
Expanding the gaming audience has come at the cost of making games simpler and easier, Epic Games design director Cliff Bleszinski has said...

..."It feels like in this current console generation that we've taken a lot of steps to grow the audience and what I think's happened is that the games have become more linear and easier, so it feels like a lot of quick-time-events," Bleszinski told Xbox360Achievements.


The guy sets the house on fire and then complains the house is indeed on fire.




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Elite
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PostPosted: 06-22-2012 09:16 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
hoping to present a challenge for players.


Heh! There's a novel idea.

Quote:
if you just want to see graphics


He's talking about one of the most visually unappealing games I've ever seen, here. :offended:

Quote:
every other mode will be hard in this game and you will die


Wait, GoW is a shoot-em-up where you can't actually die? That's news to me.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 06-22-2012 09:26 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah not too long ago he was complaining how games have been too easy and how the new GoW would set that right. He's on a bit of a spree where he condemns the industry for doing things he's most guilty of himself.




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Elite
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PostPosted: 06-22-2012 09:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Cliff B is taking lessons from politicians. Attacking your opponents for being weak in an area where you are weak is as American as apple pie.




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I'm the dude!
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PostPosted: 06-22-2012 10:06 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I always find it interesting when there's an interview with developers like John Carmack, Gabe Newell, or Shigeru Miyamoto. But I have never, ever found anything interesting from the gob of Cliff Bleszinski. If he actually means everything that he says, he is either blatantly lying or completely clueless as to what goes on in this own company and in the game developing industry. He's almost as bad as Bobby Kotick.



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opa!
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PostPosted: 06-22-2012 10:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Adjusting game difficulty seems like a trivial issue to me. Even if it has to be as cheap as lower health, less ammo, faster opponents with more health. Yet they often neglect to even give people the option these days. One perfect example is the Assassin's Creed series. A simple level up of the enemies would really benefit the game.

But it's difficult to judge what option to choose when you're starting a new game. There is no standard in measuring difficulty, so you end up choosing an option and getting bored, or owned. So the ability to adjust the difficulty mid game should also be a standard practice.

What you say? mid game change messes up your stats? FUCK your stats.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 06-23-2012 06:59 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
I always find it interesting when there's an interview with developers like John Carmack, Gabe Newell, or Shigeru Miyamoto. But I have never, ever found anything interesting from the gob of Cliff Bleszinski. If he actually means everything that he says, he is either blatantly lying or completely clueless as to what goes on in this own company and in the game developing industry. He's almost as bad as Bobby Kotick.

Listen to Ken Levine's irrational games podcasts. Levine has some really interesting views on game development and the industry in general.




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Glayven?
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PostPosted: 06-25-2012 06:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Irrational Games is one of the top 2 or 3 devs on the planet. :up:




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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 06-25-2012 07:23 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


what I find out about this is that he meant to do the same thing years back with GoW1; its "insane"-mode was supposed to be uberhard and only for the truly hardcore. it was pretty brutal, but by the time GoW3 came Insane is marginally harder than the average game out there.
now he's saying all games are too easy and they're gonna fix that in the new GOW? This probably means CoD-style trial and error gameplay; its not like they're going to invent some uber AI or have the player require ammomanagement.

the other pitfall is the grinding effect I suppose. Soloing Halo3 on Legendary is quite hard and at the same time a fucking chore.




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opa!
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PostPosted: 06-25-2012 07:31 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


so their hard is not hard enough, but when it actually is hard enough it's too hard? :offended:

Unless you mean that they way they go about making it hard, is uninspired. well, yeah I guess.




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PostPosted: 06-25-2012 08:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Expanding game audience:

Shut the fuck up Cliff. Expanding the game audience doesn't mean games need to be easier. FPS gamers are all looking for a challenge. Epic has been the most guilty at watering down the FPS genre with under 20 hours of gameplay with zero replayability. You know how you expand the game audience? Making a great game with lots of replayability. Casual gamers will have their mobile games to play, let other people grow the audience for casual games. FPS gamers are an entirely different market, they are people who are actually looking to spend a significant amount of time playing a single title with specific challenges. Trying to mix the casual gamers into the hardcore crowd doesn't increase sales, it just ends up pissing everyone off.



Difficulty levels:

Just making scalable difficulty levels doesn't make a game any more fun. Neither does making a game brutally hard where you take a stray bullet and you're dead. Difficulty levels (aside from "nightmare" type settings) are there to allow beginners to play a game on easy settings. The problem with GoW is that regardless of difficulty settings, all you had to do when in trouble is hide behind a crate for a few seconds. Harder difficulties in GoW doesn't mean more enemies, or smarter enemy AI, or less item pickups. It only means you take more damage and you have to hide behind a crate for longer to "heal". So "insane" mode really just means more time spent behind a crate, this does not make the game more fun. What does make a game more challenging is having to explore, to prioritize whether to grab that health pack or save it for later, to worry about whether going back means enemies will respawn and you'll have to clear the area out again. The challenge lies in allowing the player to make the decision making when survival is on the line.



Linearity:

He's right that games are now very linear (though he's much to blame for that). Older FPS games like Wolfenstein, Doom, Quake, etc. relied on maze like maps which the player had to explore to find keys to unlock doors to progress. It's a game mechanic that forces the player to explore a map that was non-linear. The challenge for the player is to map out the area in his head so he knows where he's been and where he has yet to explore. It also allows a player to backtrack a fair bit either to go explore another area or to grab health/ammo pickups along the way. Games don't do that now because there is this focus on progressing the all-so-important story, backtracking and exploring will slow down the storytelling. Heavy focus on the storyline makes games linear. Emphasis on exploration and searching for items makes the game more dynamic. That doesn't mean that story and exploration are mutually exclusive, but there needs to be a bigger focus on making levels less linear and allow the player to spend ample amounts of time to explore each map.



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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 06-25-2012 09:31 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tsakali wrote:
so their hard is not hard enough, but when it actually is hard enough it's too hard? :offended:

Unless you mean that they way they go about making it hard, is uninspired. well, yeah I guess.

yes, I meant the latter.
I was kinda relating to the dilemma of gamemaking I suppose.

that, and the hyprocisy of his statement, 'their hard' as you call it.

[edit] obsidian put more effort in it and said it better. after making my post I was thinking about yet another pitfall they have created for themselves; they all want the player to experience some epic (no pun) story or setpiece and if the game is so hard that people will put it down after looking at that game over screen too often theyll never see all that cool whizzbangery they cooked up. Which is aight in some cases but some games like GoW take themselves too seriously and have a too thin a plot for that to work. it just makes the entire ordeal tedious.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 06-25-2012 11:56 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Here's the irrational podcasts btw. There's one with CliffyB as well.

On the topic of difficulty: it's true that most games just go like "We'll throw 100 extra damage and 5000 extra hitpoints on that monster and be done with it", but there are also games that are brutally hard but where every time you fail, you can point at some mistake you made and say "Ok, that's what I did wrong, I shouldn't make that mistake next time".

An (perhaps seemingly odd) example is a game I've been playing a lot recently: MotoGP 10/11. I've rediscovered the fun in that game by simply increasing the difficulty level. At easier difficulty levels, incorrectly steering into a corner was not a mistake that had very large consequences. I'd overtake some riders again in the next two to three corners.
On the higher difficulty, flunking a corner really means you're fucked. But to me, it's clear that I made that mistake right there and right then and if I decide to retry the race (or use the game's rewind feature) I know to better judge the corner. It's not that I lose because the other riders ride on bikes that go twice as fast as mine.

Before, I would also skip the qualification laps because starting at the back of the grid, I'd still be able to win some races but I'd surely end up in the top 5. On the higher difficulty that is no longer possible. I have to do a good qualification to get a good starting point. If I don't qualify in the top 5 or 6 or 7, winning the race is nearly impossible.

So I think games where you have to fight against impossible odds isn't much fun. A game that's hard because making a mistake ruins it for you can be fun, because then practice really does make you better at it.




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Elite
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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 02:16 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah, Eraser, I was going to use Gran Turismo as an example and maybe Soul Calibur aswell but then I realised this thread is about FPSs, which are a whole different game when it comes to difficulty, aren't they?




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 02:23 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yes you're right in that I guess. FPS games generally aren't about timing movements correctly. Then again, there are FPS games where learning attack patterns of enemies is important. Why not make an FPS game where you can be hit only 3 times and evading attacks of enemies is more important than soaking up bullets until you reach the safety of the next indestructible crate.
You'll probably get a game that plays quite a bit different than Call of Duty or Halo, but it would most likely work. Parts of Metroid Prime are an example of this and pouring a game like Vanquish or P.N.03 in a FPS mould might be a possibility.




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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 03:16 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


the Ghost Recon series have always been one-hit-kill fests, but such kills are indeed a direct result of the player's mistakes.




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Immortal
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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 05:01 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eraser wrote:
Yes you're right in that I guess. FPS games generally aren't about timing movements correctly. Then again, there are FPS games where learning attack patterns of enemies is important. Why not make an FPS game where you can be hit only 3 times and evading attacks of enemies is more important than soaking up bullets until you reach the safety of the next indestructible crate.
You'll probably get a game that plays quite a bit different than Call of Duty or Halo, but it would most likely work. Parts of Metroid Prime are an example of this and pouring a game like Vanquish or P.N.03 in a FPS mould might be a possibility.


Max Payne 3 comes to mind except... not 1st person.




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OUR HERO
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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 06:19 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Tsakali wrote:
so their hard is not hard enough, but when it actually is hard enough it's too hard?


This is an interesting topic. It depends on what you define "hard" as. Games can be hard for a variety of reasons. In my view, some games are challenging because they require a high technical or even motor skill set. Some games are hard because they require very fast decision-making, even if the physically-coordinated requirements aren't very rigorous. Some games are hard because your avatar doesn't have the stats or gear to adequately face a challenge (yet). Some games are hard because they throw ridiculous challenges at you that aren't really meant to be overcome (here's looking at you, Diablo 3 Inferno monsters with a nearly-impossible affix combination). Still yet, some games are hard for even worse reasons than the previously listed one: poor gameplay mechanics. Often, challenges in games come in combinations from this shortlist. What one person might call "hard," I would call cheap bullshit. On the other hand, somebody might look at a game like Contra: Shattered Soldier and call it incredibly easy, which it is, after you're "rehearsed" it enough to get it right. At that point, it's all muscle memory and not necessarily raw skill. A dissertation could be written about this, but I guess I'm just posting to point out that in this discussion, the concept of difficulty is a slippery one to define.



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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 07:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The first FPS AvP game was wonderfully brutal. On "Director's Cut" difficulty, the developers deliberately prevented you from saving so you had go through each map in one run. Most of the maps required you to run around in the dark tossing flares (humans) or toggling vision modes (predator/xenomorph) while running through the maps as fast as you could to evade the non-stop hordes of enemies chasing you. Facehuggers are instant death fuckers who scare the shit out of you. The game wasn't the "realistic" slow paced game that they make these days, but the super fast twitch motion type FPS.

There was a fair amount of replayability as there were all sorts of unlocks for completing missions with certain criteria: under 4 minutes, get 10 headshots, less than 100% damage taken, complete the mission without being seen, etc. Took me forever to get all the unlocks.



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Glayven?
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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 02:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Mogul wrote:
Tsakali wrote:
so their hard is not hard enough, but when it actually is hard enough it's too hard?


This is an interesting topic. It depends on what you define "hard" as. Games can be hard for a variety of reasons. In my view, some games are challenging because they require a high technical or even motor skill set. Some games are hard because they require very fast decision-making, even if the physically-coordinated requirements aren't very rigorous. Some games are hard because your avatar doesn't have the stats or gear to adequately face a challenge (yet). Some games are hard because they throw ridiculous challenges at you that aren't really meant to be overcome (here's looking at you, Diablo 3 Inferno monsters with a nearly-impossible affix combination). Still yet, some games are hard for even worse reasons than the previously listed one: poor gameplay mechanics. Often, challenges in games come in combinations from this shortlist. What one person might call "hard," I would call cheap bullshit. On the other hand, somebody might look at a game like Contra: Shattered Soldier and call it incredibly easy, which it is, after you're "rehearsed" it enough to get it right. At that point, it's all muscle memory and not necessarily raw skill. A dissertation could be written about this, but I guess I'm just posting to point out that in this discussion, the concept of difficulty is a slippery one to define.


Ugh...you guys are opening a huge can of worms as it relates to tweaking game difficulty. But I have to say, adjusting game difficulty is no trivial issue because there are so many ways you can do it and they all can have massive affects on difficulty.

Just to put it in perspective, one small way you can increase difficulty (without touching any atomic parameters) is to simply adjust WHERE you place your enemies, never mind the actual numbers of enemies or the level geometry, but simply the distance to the player. I could go on and on about how the challenge can be tweaked with the size of enemies on screen, window-of-opportunity to shoot, etc but the trick is making the player's skill match the difficulty ramp so they stay in the sweet spot of flow as the player progresses through the game. With over a million people playing you're bound to have some people fall out of the flow and slug through the frustration/boredom curve once in a while.

Regardless...you can up the difficulty level in any Modern Warfare game by simply letting the player lead once in a while. Imagine how much more challenging the fighter jet section of Battlefield 3 SP could be if you weren't on rails and had to choose the path? That's my main concern about "easy and linear" is that the "modern shooter" will not let the player beat the challenge, but beats it for them as long as they're even slightly paying attention.




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Messatsu Ko Jy-ouu
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PostPosted: 06-26-2012 10:15 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


still funny how "game" is tantamount to "first person shooter" in this thread.




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Shambolic
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PostPosted: 06-27-2012 02:51 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thing is, Cliffy B says this after seeing how popular the Souls games have become, but I don't know if he really appreciates their particular brand of difficulty, or exactly how they achieve it. They're about teaching the player to be a better player.

You know the FPS games that had the best difficulty settings in my eyes?
The Thief games and Goldeneye / Perfect Dark, where upping difficulty didn't necessarily affect enemy durability, but applied certain conditions to levels that had to be met in order to succeed, such as not killing anyone or adding extra things to collect.
The thing is, these options aren't easy enough for most developers, and you have to put some thought into them. When you're working to a deadline and have to achieve a particular metascore in order to get your paypacket, you're going to follow the path of least resistance.
This is the real reason for triple-A mediocrity that no-one really wants to admit.




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Cool #9
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PostPosted: 06-27-2012 02:55 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Timesplitters 2 was a good example as well. This game added additional objectives to the game on higher difficulty levels, which actually meant gaining access to previously inaccessible areas of the maps and facing new enemies. So playing on a higher difficulty level wasn't just a case of the game being tougher, it opened up new content for you as well.

The opening mission (which was a hilarious parody of GoldenEye 007's dam opening mission) ended at blowing up some silo or generator or something (can't remember) at the easiest difficulty level, but on hard you would continue and get to the top of the dam and fight a boss fight against a rocket shooting helicopter. At some difficulty level it also introduced a section with zombies which could only be killed by shooting off their heads.




Last edited by Eraser on 06-27-2012 03:10 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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