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Topic Starter	Topic: cray3t1 - First (Duel) map, looking for feedback :)
Crayfish Gibblet Joined: 02 Sep 2008 Posts: 21	Posted: 08-10-2012 07:36 AM                  Hi guys. Have been mapping in other games (made a version of Bloodrun for UT3) and playing and watching QL duels for a while , but this is my first (Duel) Q3 map. Was hoping to get some feedback here from experienced duel players on layout, item location etc.. This is a very early layout (just simple textures / geometry) no work on decor, optimisation etc done yet. Ive been tweaking it allot to the best of my knowlege, but ofc Im not a high level player. It might be totaly unbalanced as far as item control and things like that go. The shape and scale of all the areas can be re-built - moved based on feedback. The main experimental feature is the two sided teleporter that you can shoot through and that joins the two main rooms. Its a feature Ive not seen in Q3, its similar to the 2 sided teleporter from a Quake World map (name??), and Im most curious to see how it works out in practice. If someone could record some duel play in a demo (if thats possible) that would be awesome also. Thanks! INSTALLATION: put the .pk3 file in your: 'Quake III Arean >baseq3' folder TO LOAD: bring up console: ¬ then type: sv_pure 0 then: /map cray3t1_a1 MAP INFO: There is a large two-sided teleporter joining the two main upper rooms. You can shoot through this, and touching one side or the other will teleport you to two different locations on the map. Everything else should be fairly standard to duel players. DOWNLOAD: http://www.mediafire.com/?7pw7qpxwdwx4i8s Thanks!
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AEon Boink! Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 4493	Posted: 08-10-2012 10:13 AM                  Just a few quick notes: First off I would recommend very much you take a look at the present layout in this thread new layout thread, and download the map. I gave some feedback there (don't bother reading the feedback though). Not for the layout itself, but as an example for path widths, stair step heights, gameflow, and pathing. This should give you a feeling how q3a traditionally handle things. Obviously you can and should do your own thing... but gameflow is important. I really love your glass teleport. The geometry around the window reminds me of Halo... love that, also the MH (Megahealth) pit edges look cool... reminds me of the old days of Duke Nuk'em 3D editing where you defined walls via outlines. Personally I would put the TP (teleport) exits exactly where you can see via glass... I am always disappointed not to end up where I was looking. I know you could just drop the glass for this, but would still be nifty to keep the glass. About pathing suggestions and problematic areas, e.g. around the RG, stairs running out of space, or walkways first wide than narrow, again around the RG (railgun) are some of the more obvious issues. It is difficult to run from one area to the next without falling off somewhere or bumping into something else. I still need to properly learn your layout though. If interested I can create a series of screenshots and suggest pathing improvements. Generally any dead end is bad, e.g. your lava room balconies, yes these are TP exits, but what happens if a player runs the other way, he needs to backtrack... not good in MP (multiplayer). The large height differences again remind me of Halo, good for SP (single player maps with exploration) in MP a bit difficult. Again generally, the flatter a map is, the easier it is to understand, and normally that makes a map more playable, so when using heights one has to be careful, to not overdo it. Hope that helps a bit. We here at LEM do not try to be smartypants, but be objective and try to constructively help, so if any comment comes across as harsh, it was not intended to be so.
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Crayfish Gibblet Joined: 02 Sep 2008 Posts: 21	Posted: 08-10-2012 11:11 AM                  Thanks Aeon, I was basically planning on scratch building the whole thing once I get feedback, this is just to test out the basic layout in terms of the basic arrangement of rooms and items etc. Was certainly looking to make all the areas (allot) larger, and therefore lest steep as a first step. I want to keep the verticality, since I was inspired by the vertical areas of ztn, furious heights & dm13, but will certainly bring the step heights, path widths inline with the standards and the extra size will make things allot less cramped. I should have done a basic second stage with everything proportioned a bit closer to how I later envision it. The actual geometry doesnt represent what Im gona build, everything is just placeholders atm, Im going to do a mixed scifi - rockcave style theme inspired by some of the Quake 4 maps., allot of patchwork etc, but thanks for the comments. The teleporters are quite specifically setup around the confict over items in the central rooms. They allow you to get quickly to the other side to give chase and give you vertical advantage like furious heights, but at the cost of running straight at the central opening, and only having one way out of the exit (like the deatrap megahealth spawns that are popular in some QL maps now). I wanted them to come out of a thin channel exit, to give the other player time to respond. If they burst into the open in the opposite room, it would be more of a fast twitch CPMA type setup, which is not what im going for. Pretty specific scenarios that I hope two people might be able to test. *If you will indulge me for now on the tele setup, until I have a friendlier more standardized layout Thanks for the points on the RG area, thats exactly the type of specific detail i need for re-building the areas. Any more like that is greatly appreciated* Thanks again.
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AEon Boink! Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 4493	Posted: 08-10-2012 12:24 PM                  OK, will look into the overall pathing to see if I can come up with something. Yeah, the ztn is a good example for pretty extreme heights that work, because you can still run "loops" on each level... so it's like layered heights that are "flat" but let you change the height in many places.
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AEon Boink! Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 4493	Posted: 08-11-2012 12:00 PM                  As you mentioned you are aware of many things related to the layout and gameflow, so commenting on those things when a pretty significant geometry change is already planned might be less useful. Hopefully, I can point out a few things that will help the next version become more fluid and fun to play. General things: Steps normally are 8u (units) high and 16u deep... this makes the look pleasant, whereas your probably 16u high steps look like Lego or something. High steps are intimidating. The 1:1 ratio (height:depth) of your steps always feels too steep, IMO. Paths... narrow paths are two blocks wide (block on main grid in the editor = 64u) that is 128u wide, that works most of the time, to give the map a bit more generosity, 3xblocks width are preferred. In this map's case you will want to introduce a consistent path width, I'd suggest 3xblocks (192u) and only in a few cases where you want to add a implied precision or "danger of falling off the path" use 2xblocks. E.g. the path above the MH could be 2xblocks. The next step then is to give your paths enough room, e.g. when you have two levels of steps add a flat area that lets the player navigate from one set of steps to the next. The times of really sharp turns are long gone with Quake. And cramped maps as well. You have as much space as you need so make use of it . All your JPs are on blocks, you can put them flush with the floor, no need to lift them off the floor. Again if they are off the floor this should not really be by much 4u or so... Angled JPs that you run into but push you backwards are generally a bad idea, because you often will miss the upper platform, if the player keeps on running forward while in the air (air control). If not absolutely necessary, to be avoided. Image related comments: a) JPs are normally placed in front and not in the back of a walkway. Here it unnecessarily even crowds the already narrow path above. And no one running in the blue area will want to jump down. Steps in the back, left of blue, would need to be moved back, to make room for the steps below. The column in the center is in the way... if you want to add those the room needs to be a lot wider to accommodate them. TP exit path (left with two red x) is too sharp around that corner. Same is true from the column stairs down into the cellar. b) Maps usually are only played by bots, because unless you and your friends open up a server and play from time to time, everyone else will only be able to play your map with bots. Bots do not jump so they will not be able to cross the gaps in the lava here. Especially the RA (red armour) platform is isolated. You can cheat by placing some bot_clip where indicated by the lower two red arrows, but the RA would need some form of grated bridge. Even though I love lava, you might want to add some more white light to tone down the orange here. c) In many places in the map you will bump your head if you jump down those stairs, and if not, it looks that way. It looks much better to properly raise the ceiling for all your stairs to give them player some head room (left purple x). JPs do not really need a block to put them on. Here it looks off. The purple ?, no idea what the geometry is for, looks strange. The JP should better be in the middle. On the top floor you see the stairs on edge... that also looks strange from below. d) Again in purple the head room issue. Right side in yellow, lifting the ceiling above the stairs would also help. Here you use several corridor widths, that can be a matter of design, but the left width seems to be too wide, or the wall next to it too short. e) I feel that 1) steps are redundant (and too narrow), since you have 2) already. In pink the traditional q3a rounded off top end of the JP here would help the player see: "yes down there is a JP". The green wall jump is for the trick jumpers as a quick shortcut I take it... per se OK... but looks strange to have such a block in the middle of the wall. I am pretty sure you get stuck under it, or at least will badly bump your head here if you jump. The grate for the YA, is probably supposed to let folks look up to check if the YA is up here. But from the JP area below you will not move into the corner to look up, you will simply use the JP to get up there. And the other problem is the reduced visibility due to the geometry... some finer crate would help. Though I still think you need no grate for the YA here. f) I am no fan of the TP exit dead ends. What I am wondering is coming from the far end of the room, you pass the YA, then pick up the PG only to backtrack again, since the upper level is a dead end... hmm... connecting the two TP exit dead ends via bridge would make this upper path more meaningful. g) Standing down here I always wanted to get up there quickly. Not sure but even a rocket jump could fail. Overall the area is too cramped. Moving back the wall (behind the green arrow) would help. Adding another JP as well to get up there. Especially if you connect both TP exits. Presently you only have the choice of two sharp turns into the cellar or back to JP around the corner. If you want to get the PG and YA from here, you have to take quite a roundabout way to get to them. With many sharp turns. h) This room seems to be the only one that could be half the size and not lose anything. Personally I would connect the two TP exits, with some form of bridge, to let the player get from one side of the arena to the other. IMO the mirror/glass/TP gimmick will get old quite quickly. When a player looks at a TP "destination", he expects to get there... exiting somewhere else is almost aggravating over time. Not quite sure what is going on in this room geometry-wise. i) Another perspective of the main room. This room is clearly the best part of your map... it only needs more room to move in. The path around the MH needs to be much wider, to give the player space to *not* fall into the MH pit, plus space to the TP/glass. Again, close the hole for the JP, and place it on the front side with a rounded "semi-circular hole" for the JP, to make it clear there is a JP down there. Column as mentioned needs a larger room to work. Path width consistency also needs to be addressed. j) The turn down to the lower level IMO is too sharp. The purple line marks an strange drop to the lower level. You will also bump you head again. The narrow ledge around the stairs also does not really fit... needs some brushwork fixing. k) The upper end of your glass window I would move up more, to not have to almost crouch to look trough it. Path widths mentioned several times. Over all: I think the map has potential, but the pathing and strange geometry is dragging it down. I will be honest, the map requires a major change in geometry to fix these issues and to make it fun. And please note I am not trying to stifle creativity, but certain things simply do not work in Q3A and look unprofessional. I am not holding this against you, since this is your very first Q3A map... Hope the work I put into all this will help.
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Crayfish Gibblet Joined: 02 Sep 2008 Posts: 21	Posted: 08-11-2012 02:26 PM                  Perfect, this is just what I was after regarding the geometry Aeon. Massive thanks for taking the time to do this, really great feedback. I will be updating the thread as I progress. Big thanks again.
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