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Topic Starter Topic: UPDATE
Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 09:13 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I finally had some down time today so I've now got an update for you all. It can be found here or at the top of the page.

New stuff:

First off, Q is now an FFA map. The name has changed to "phdm2".

Since it's now an FFA map, I totally wiped the item placement clean and started over. Rather than talk about it too much here, I'll do another color-coded post (like the ones AEon and I did above) after this.

I've once again found another way I overlooked to improve hinting. Q really draws great for a space map - have I mentioned that before?

Bots need a little work. Right now they hang out on the bottom level a little more than I want them to. They play well enough for now though.

Bugs known:
- Showing caulk face by the RL on the underside of the platform.
- Weird skybox error. I think this has something to do with how I turned them into JPEGs.
- Anyone know a way I can get bots shooting through the fences and grates? They can't see through botclip.

@Hipshot, bring on the technical stuff! And feel free to look at/change the .maps, that's why I included them. About the skybox, I just saved the TGAs as JPEGs to minimize download size. Apparently this is bad?

@a12n, I found the skybox while browsing Speaker's skybox collection, just search "q3sky" on LvL. The skybox is called "Stormy Days" by Hipshot, and, I agree, it is awesome. I later found a hi-res version here.

One last thing: What do you guys think about the shoot-through grates on the middle level? I really like how you can shoot rockets down to the lower level in some places, but I'm willing to compromise if people really think the RL needs more splash area. For instance, I could weaponclip like 32 units below the grate surface in spots that don't reach all the way to the lower level so you still see the rocket go through, but you get a little splash too.
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 10:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Below I've posted the outline I wrote up for myself while figuring out the FFA item placement of Q. It's pretty long and I doubt anyone but AEon will read it :), but it's here for you if you want insight on any of the gameplay decisions I made (e.g. why the PINK SECTION has no ammo and only 25 health). I think I'm gonna get rid of the 25 by the RL. Other than that, this is pretty much the best I can do until any more feedback.

I'm really happy with the way the map is playing now. Things are finally making sense for me during FFA games. Each section of the map has a clear purpose and doing this outline has shown me that I can calculate every item I place, right down to the ammo packs.

Basically I started by trying to understand the nature of each area in Q and brainstormed the best way to take advantage of each section's weak and strong points. While doing this it became clear where the large armors needed to be placed. Then I used what I had learned to decide which weapons I wanted and where I wanted them, and then moved onto the health with even stronger understanding of the map, and so on. I like this strategy because when it comes time to place the smaller, less obvious items like ammo and player starts, you already have such a strong foundation that helps you calculate exactly where you need them. It's a great feeling when you know nothing has been left up to guesswork, and it also makes discussing your item placement with other people a lot easier too.

One last note: The main difference between this outline and the one I did before is earlier I was mistakenly starting with the armor and weapons in already place. This is clearly flawed logic. It's best to start by color coding your map into sections without any items at all distracting you.

Image
Sorry the image doesn't show the double bouncer and the curve up to the RA island. These are bobbing entities and the picture was taken from outside of the map.

General Purpose/Armor:

RED SECTION is my recovery area. It has by far the most cover (actually, the only cover). It contains a lot of health for the down players. Players also need a starting weapon if they spawn down there. A minor armor under the drop-down coupled with one in the BLUE SECTION would counter the GREEN SECTION quite nicely.

Conversely, the GREEN SECTION is meant for the up players in comfortable situations looking for more power. The island platform and the question mark are perfect for the most powerful armor and weapon. They should only be worth going for once the player has all his other weapons and health under control. Thus, this is the natural progression from the YELLOW SECTION.

I want the YELLOW SECTION to be the center of the action since it is a large horizontal tier in the center of the map both on the XY plane and on the Z axis. If players want to recover, they can escape to the RED SECTION via the teleport. The BLUE SECTION can also be directly accessed to take out a camper or pick up the armor there.

The BLUE SECTION can reach the YELLOW SECTION with a single jump, but is well protected from the action and seems to be the natural progression from the RED SECTION or the PINK SECTION before heading off to fight in the YELLOW SECTION. It's also a great camping spot, which is something to keep an eye on.

The PINK SECTION is just outside of the action and doesn't seem like a place players would go back to once they've already been there. This will be a reliable place for players to spawn in. Then they can progress to the BLUE SECTION for armor or the GREEN SECTION for firepower.

Weapons:

RED SECTION needs an SG, otherwise players down there can be too easily taken advantage of from above.

YELLOW SECTION should have an RL. Everyone will go for it and the whole area will become a giant splatterfest.

GREEN SECTION will have the LG, since it's the most powerful weapon. This should be the last stop before maximum power for dominant players.

PINK SECTION should also have an SG so players can spawn into a fairly quiet place, grab a basic weapon and move on to armor in the BLUE SECTION, firepower in the GREEN SECTION, or action in the YELLOW SECTION.

BLUE SECTION doesn't have room for a weapon. An RL would be redundant considering the one in the YELLOW SECTION would be one double bouncer away. Plus I don't want people spamming rockets from here and exploiting weak players in the RED SECTION. An SG wouldn't make much sense because it's the natural progression of the PINK SECTION and the RED SECTION which both have SGs.

Health:

RED SECTION, being the recovery area, should have plenty easily accessible and low-risk health. A 50 and three 25s should be good.

YELLOW SECTION, being the action area, should have easily accessible health but it will be high-risk considering how open and deadly the area can be. 50 - 75 health of all 25s should be good.

GREEN SECTION shouldn't have health because it's made for players looking to expand, not recover.

PINK SECTION, since I want this place to be a calm spawn area, I am going to try to minimize health here. I'm not sure yet if I can get away with no health at all, but that would be ideal.

BLUE SECTION, being the natural progression from the PINK SECTION and the RED SECTION, this area should be visited by mostly healthy players. Since it has a MH I don't need as much health here anyway, so I don't think I need health here.

Ammo:

RED SECTION: Since this is the recovery area, it will probably be visited by players with the SG and the RL at least, and maybe the LG. Since there is an SG there no shells are needed. I think I'll go with rockets and bullets, for those who have used up most of their MG ammo.

YELLOW SECTION: Needs plenty of SG and RL ammo. Also a pack of bullets should be by the RL to counter MG camping at the BLUE SECTION.

GREEN SECTION: I'm thinking the RA island needs some shells and rockets to make progression from the YELLOW SECTION more natural.

PINK SECTION : For same reasons as health, I don't really think this place needs any ammo.

BLUE SECTION: Natural progression from both shotguns. I'm going to want at least one box of shells, maybe two. I don't want rockets for camping issues foreseen above. I could put some LG ammo to offer a little reward for players who use the double bouncer after coming from the GREEN SECTION. They shouldn't really have to pass through the YELLOW SECTION that they already survived once just for more ammo.

Spawn Points:

RED SECTION: Should have a bunch of spawns. It's a nice, safe starting point.

YELLOW SECTION: Might have one spawn by the RL, but other than that, I don't want to toss people in here before they're ready.

GREEN SECTION: No spawns. Players should only go there after making a conscious decision to expand their weapon/armor arsenal.

PINK SECTION : Lots of spawns. This is the PINK SECTION'S primary purpose.

BLUE SECTION: Probably shouldn't have any spawns considering there are no weapons here.

Indicators:

The only time I really want to give away a player's location is when he's going for the LG. 5 armor shards right at the foot of the rail slide should be good.
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AEon
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PostPosted: 09-28-2009 12:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Regarding present IP:
  • MG and SG ammo IMO is too close to the RL, overstacking that area. Might be better to place them a bit lower and to the left (right unter the edge of the green area.
  • The 50H right in the middle of the yellow area... hmmm... IMO it usually is not so good to place item in the middle of paths, because they constantly get picked up, and the other players usually "hope" that folks pass them buy. I'd move the 50H down a bit, a bit left of your TP hole.
  • It is quite clear why you have too much action in the red arena, too many respawn points there. This clusters the bots/player on that level. I'd remove the PS to the left of the 50H. And instead place it on the RA island.
  • No more ammo or health in the pink heli-pad... hmmm... I'd move the upper PS there and move it, e.g. onto the green lower end of the "?".
  • On the blue platform, one SG ammo is superflous IMO. The fire rate of the SG is low, one ammo box is more than enough.
  • BTW... the placement of ammo is overrated ;) (*ducks*)... what I mean is this, it is overrated in small maps where you die quickly anyway. In a Tourney map or med large FFA map you have to go resource collecting to keep in the flow. But here most folks will run for a weapon and will for the most part not care where the ammo is. You simply, do not live long enough for it to *really* matter. Note: Placing the ammo in convenient areas is still a "good" thing though.

[armor ...] drop-down coupled with one in the BLUE SECTION would counter the GREEN SECTION quite nicely.
What armor in the blue area? You mention this several times, you mean the MH though?

Placing a RG in the blue area sure would make the map more "lively" >:D

Some of the rationalizing is interesting, but as mentioned ammo in this map is overrated, and when you don't live that long health and armor are the primary focus after you grab a "better" weapon. The idea of a pink spawn area is also interesting... not sure it will actually work that way though. I place items etc. by instinct, spreading them out... here I think there is too much stuff in too many areas.
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Hipshot
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PostPosted: 09-28-2009 03:10 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pat Howard wrote:
@Hipshot, bring on the technical stuff! And feel free to look at/change the .maps, that's why I included them. About the skybox, I just saved the TGAs as JPEGs to minimize download size. Apparently this is bad?


I should have looked more this weekend, but didn't have that much time. I'll see what I can do in the week, I have a lot of things I know where you can make things better in the tech department. But I need to test them at home....
The TGA -> JPG is not bad, but seems your JPGs are strange in some way, don't know why, but my JPGs of the same sky looks good, when I replace yours.



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sock
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PostPosted: 09-28-2009 05:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I am still convinced this map needs more cover and even if you subdivide the platforms into combat zones they are still one zone because when you stand at the MH you see everything, no hiding place. I know you are not going to open up the secret area, so a couple more suggestions instead.

1. Standing in the middle of the Red area facing the control tower, cut a hole directly infront of you towards the sky. It could be styled just like the YA route. Then bend the route round the outside of the structure towards the YA/jumppad. Make it wide enough so the platform above can see it, give the edge a railing or the metal cushion pads. For gameplay this will add a nice drop down from the Pink area and also a true recovery route. Place Health/shards here and some spawns. On the corner add a jump pad up to the pink area. This will allow players to recover and get back into the fight easily. Also stop the prediction with the YA, players goes for YA and comes up on single JP, easy kill. Now the player has a choice when going for the YA, up on JP or round corner a bit up on next JP or right round to red zone again or rocket jump up.

2. Standing in the corridor with the YA, move towards the jumppad at the end and then turn left. Add a platform/path that goes from here, underneath the LG pipe and comes out at the top part of the red zone. Again add health/shards so players can recover easily and maybe use the ? teleporter as a jump pad up instead into the RL area. Again allow the player to drop down from the edge of the RL area and break the movement prediction. Player in RL area, goes to jumppad for MH (duck shooting time), instead player drops off the edge into recovery zone, can go towards the YA or round towards the top of the red zone, not predictable anymore.

Both of these paths can be wide enough so the secret area underneath is not seen and also add much needed covered footspace to the red area. With the path being on the outside of the structure they will be low poly to create, you have most of the brushwork there already, plus added visual bonus, seeing the skybox on the edge of a platform again.

The SG is a complete waste of time in this map without any close quarter spaces (like above), bullet spread and reload times make this weapon a finisher only. Switch the SG in the pink area for the grenade launcher and move the SG in the middle of the red area to the lower corner below the pink area (new routes listed above). SG on the lower area will be better because everything it tight and up close again. For true FFA style you need a powerup, try adding a regen to the middle of the red area, it could be fun to last a bit longer :p



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AEon
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PostPosted: 09-28-2009 06:52 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


From instinct I was thinking about adding the paths Sock suggested (had given up on such changes, though), only he actually did a very convincing job of rationalizing them. I totally agree those extra paths "around" the "?" on the red level would help make the map much more tactical and less predictable. And the net guards let the player actually jump from the upper levels to the lower ones without jumping into the abyss.

I am not quite sure if Sock meant this, but I'd also cover the lower end path from below the RL AP, around the corner to the JP leading up from the red to the yellow area (near the AP that takes you to the RA). This way you could spawn in the red area, then either take the JP up to the yellow area, or run around the upper end of the "?" and take cover.
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 09-28-2009 07:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@AEon: Tx for the IP suggestions. I'll be adding most of them.

@sock: About the paths, I'm totally doing this.
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 09-30-2009 11:12 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just screenshots today. I've been working on adding those paths Sock suggested. Here's the first one:

Image

Image

I tried out two different designs for the back bouncer:

Image

So which do you prefer, A or B?
-pat
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AEon
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PostPosted: 09-30-2009 11:47 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Holy cow... just when I though it could not get cooler it did. Wow.

  • I like B because it lets you jump into the "netting" to get down. Don't remember seeing something like that in a map before. Would need to be tested though. Downside, you are moida'ing your r_speeds even more.

  • Cool that you can finally walk through the "door". The front JP in the second shot is now redundant and should be removed, jumping over a JP to get to another JP is kinda weird ;). Never liked the front JP "blocking" the door anyway.

  • The yellow fence along in inside wall is redundant, IMO, removing it should be fine gameplay-wise and also help FPS. No need to be protected from the wall ;)... should also yield that extra bit of space for navigation, seems to be very "cramped" as it is?

Looking forward to the next test map. Glad you took up Socks idea, this should greatly up the gameplay fun in this map. And who knows, maybe it will turn into a tourney map after all :toothy:

(/me weeps quietly, not having that level of detail skill... :cry:)
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sock
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PostPosted: 09-30-2009 02:29 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


umm that is not what I had in mind, I assumed you would cut the hole where the two health balls are and preserve the control tower door and room. I thought it would be easier to go the other way towards the pink corner and then round to the jump pad/ya. Also the new wire frames around the top of the jump pads do not fit the style of the map, they look very odd to me.



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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 10-01-2009 12:39 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, completely polarized feedback - interesting...

Well, I had some fun experimenting with the new paths, but I've decided to scrap them for a number of reasons.


    First off, I had to figure out what these things were going to look like. I had a few limitations:

    Since the map looks so complete (at least to me since I've stared at it for so long), I knew trying to slap on anything that felt "permanent" would look totally ridiculous. I kept asking myself, "Why would whoever built this place put these paths here?" and I couldn't come up with an answer. So I decided that, in order for them to work, any new paths would have to appear "temporary", e.g. catwalks or scaffolding for some type of construction, which leads nicely to my next problem...

    For performance reasons, I couldn't have any of the floors be transparent. This is a problem because part of selling the "temporary" feel included having some kind of see-through grate to walk on. Solid floors blocked a large portion of the structure when viewing from the outside, taking away from the scale of the structure and also ruining the seamless transition from top to bottom. Once again, they felt permanent because they took visible priority over the outside walls of the structure. I know this stuff is mostly seen from the outside in spectator mode or screenshots, but I worked hard on making this level look like a complete structure and a plausible place and I want to keep it that way. If Q were like most space maps and had nothing but a flat surface on its underside solid paths would be okay, but this is clearly not the case.

    Well I tried to pull off a "catwalk" feel anyway despite being a little nervous about it. What I ended up with was an awkward mix between temporary and permanent. I thought the yellow fence guards were okay but the floor was awful. All of this looked fine from some angles but really suffered from others, especially when viewed off to the side from a distance.


I could go on about how the gameplay felt pretty awkward as well, but I think I've gotten my point across. I'm glad I tried this, but I really just don't think it's gonna work. I'd much rather accept Q's flaws and move on than ruin the scale and aesthetic and try to make it something it's not. If this was going to be my last map, maybe I'd spend some more time on it, but it's not, and I can take what I've learned here and apply it to new levels.

Thanks for the suggestions, Sock. Even though they didn't end up making it this particular map, I'm confident they were not a total waste of time; they actually taught me a lot.

Oh yeah, and sorry AEon if you really liked them that much! The compliments were nice anyway = P.

Update #4 can be found below.
-pat
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 10-01-2009 12:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


OK, it looks like this is gonna be the last update before a final release. No huge changes here, as the new paths didn't end up working (see above). Here's a short list of little things, though.

  • Added a GL on top of the control tower near the MH. Adds some gameplay variety and gives players another reason to head up there after grabbing the SG from the RED or PINK SECTION.
  • MH now occasionally spawns in as a QUAD. I thought this would make for some fun "rush to the tower" battles, especially with some players flying in from the double bouncer and raining rockets down on everyone.
  • Took AEon's advice on moving the health away from the players' natural paths. Changed 50 in YELLOW SECTION to 25 (which I'm not 100% sure is better).
  • Minor floor plan change: I pushed back a wall in the RED SECTION 64 units. (It's the wall by the two 25s and the teleport destination.) This should give you just a tad more cover when you initially warp in and grab those 25s.
  • The grates that don't see straight through to the RED SECTION have some weapon clip just below the surface of them. Projectiles still appear to go through these grates but explode much earlier and make the RL and GL less frustrating to use in the YELLOW SECTION.
  • Fixed a bunch of poorly constructed floors/walls. I also think I've gotten rid of all those sparklies on the Q3A TV (correct me if I'm wrong).

That's it I think. Looking forward to some final item placement feedback as well as any leftover technical stuff. (Looking at you, Hipshot :smirk:) Click here for the update.
-pat
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AEon
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PostPosted: 10-01-2009 01:56 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I am yet again shocked to find how efficient those d*rn bots are, meaning bot play works *very* efficiently. If you don't camp in the red sector (cover + health) going for a better weapon from time to time and using all resources, also you TP to get of the totally deadly yellow sector, you get a really bad beating.

  • I still think the 2nd SG ammo at the GL is superfluous. As mentioned, the 10 shots of the SG you get with the weapon will almost never be used up before you die. So single ammo box is enough up there.
  • All the health helps, and you *really* need it too. The YA on the red level also helps.
  • Makes me wonder if a Regen might help... but probably not, it does not regenerate the health quickly enough. Maybe randomize the RA with Regen from time to time?
  • I'd say the frenzy gameplay works, and you still have enough interesting paths as it is.
  • Only technical issue (I am aware of) is the bobbing banner thing with many sparklie edges. You'll really want to fix those by rebuilding the patches very carefully. It's a bit weird to play a map at this quality level, but still find sparklies.
  • All that ammo near the RA, *3* boxes also looks a bit weird. I get your idea, but again, you don't live long enough for that ammo to actually matter. Even with the RA, you still die quickly. Just pointing this out, leave the ammo there as it is.

A project you might want to try after the map is done: Ceatre a cleaned up (simplified) version of this map, no secret area, no locked door, and experiment by turning this map more into a "normal" space map with the paths Sock suggested. Then again you may come up with something completely new that is even better in your next map :).
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 10-01-2009 02:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hi AEon, Just got back from fKd's alpha thread and was glad to see this quick response.

About the SG ammo, the main reason you're always seeing it there is because it's "notbot=1". Bot's were too easy to knock off the tower when they went for it so I just had them ignore it entirely. The reason I made two of them is so I could set their waits to be random and thus have more of a chance of one being there whenever a player comes up from the RED or PINK SECTION. I guess I could've made one box of shells with a very quick wait to get the same effect, but this way looks less "odd" to me.

Looking into the sparklies. I also realized after the post that I didn't get all of them.

-pat
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 10-02-2009 03:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Spent some time today cleaning up the pk3.

All the textures are in one folder. I merged the skybox shader with the rest of them. I added a texture readme now that you can't see the DIRs the textures came from. Updated the .arena file. Changed the skybox back to TGA format (I didn't like the JPEG banding from the compression). Anyway, stuff is looking final.

If you have any more little things nagging at you like item changes, misaligned textures, etc., get those over here now because I'm gonna release this within the next few days.

-pat
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 10-17-2009 09:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks for all your help, everyone. This map is now up at ..::LvL. You can find the final release in the map queue (mainly for better bots).

Hipshot, I hate to keep nagging you b/c I'm sure you're a busy guy, but I'd still like to hear what you had to say about this map on the technical side of things whenever you get the time. I know it has already been released, but I'd still love to learn whatever I did wrong for future maps.

Thanks again!
-pat
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