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Topic: New Project: Aty3dm5

kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 01-18-2013 09:16 PM

I'm trying something different approach on this map(different to me). Instead of building rooms and then connecting them with passages
I'm basicly going from the inside out. There is no outer hull at this point. Came up with a partial layout and basic design. For the last week
or so I've been working in one small section trying out different things and textures. I've decided to use Lunaran's Lun3dm2 texture set.
And heres a couple of Screenshot from the editor (the section with a ceiling is in the pk3) - http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/83 ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/83 ... hotostream

Edit:04/28/2013- This is the Final .pk3 for those of you that would rather just D/L it and not have to go to the end of the thread to get it
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ucxzpj45rxql57q

04/23/2013- Some info on the map(part of the Readme).
*********************************************************************************************
aty3dm5 :For Quake III Arena
by Anthony Tullo "AKA Kaustic"

=============================================================================================
STORY

Europa Station, Once a peaceful scientific observation station. Scientist from Earth came to
study Jupiter's moon Europa. Little did they know that during construction of the station they
had built it on top of a highly toxic gas pocket trapped in the ice.One day there was a
Moon Quake that fractured the ice and cracking the foundations permitting the gas to leak into
the station.The occupants, completely unaware of the gas began to become delusional. After
several hours of exposure to the gas people began to hallucinate. Seeing danger lurking in
every corner and from everyone. Soon people were killing their once friends and families.
Finally the lone survivor died from exposure to the gas. The station was abandoned and
forgotten. Years later the station was discovered By the Vadrigar who repaired the foundations
and contained the gas, converted the station into an arena.

Now let the games begin.

=============================================================================================
Title: Europa Station
Filenames: aty3dm5.pk3, aty3dm5 Readme
File size:12 Mb +/-
Author: Anthony Tullo (Kaustic)
Address: kaustic3@ptd.net

Description:Small/Medium map ,2 to 10 players.

Started sometime in the 2008/9 timeframe ,original concept dumped and restarted 27 Aug 2012.
Dec 2012/Jan 2013 map concept changed again.After looking at allot of custom maps in my
collection I was inspired by Lun3DM2 Lets Drink Beer and Shoot Things.I particularly like
the textures and brushwork in the map.I decided I needed to change how I had been doing
things. Aty3Dm5 in its final incarnation- Europa Station.

(spell check on this site is wonderful. Apparently my spelling sucks )

Last edited by kaustic on 04-28-2013 02:16 PM, edited 6 times in total.

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obsidian
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Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 01-25-2013 08:06 AM

kaustic wrote:
Instead of building rooms and then connecting them with passages...

Yup, as I mentioned in your other thread, you don't want to do this. Corridor cancer kills good maps so your new layout technique is paying off already.

Your new layout looks a little more promising. Try thinking a little more in 3D though and open up the atriums more to the floors below. Right now, you have little holes to drop down to, open them up so that the players can actually shoot back at each other, travel up and down, etc. You can think of those little holes like vertical corridors and should probably be avoided. Good start though.

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cityy
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Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018

Posted: 01-25-2013 08:57 AM

Your screenshots look good, the scale looks pretty nice and so does the layout. You could try extending it a bit on the vertical side of things; pretty much what obsidian says. Q3 gameplay involves so many weapons and each of them has its favor depending on the geometry of the map (i.e. you'd wanna use a LG in open spaces where people got plenty of space to dodge while using a RL in corridors -- or another example: RG on long distance, LG on mid distance, RL/SG on closer ranges).
What you want to try to achieve with a map is having a good balance between weapons; not only regarding their placement but also regarding their usage. For example in a map with a lot of narrow corners and no vertical differences people will mostly be successful using the rocket launcher only.

On a side note, I think you should work a bit on your thread formatting and writing; give the posting guidelines a shot.
Keep it up!

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kaustic
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Posted: 01-26-2013 12:08 PM

I am very thankful for your comments.Old habits die hard. They say you cant teach an old dog new tricks but I believe
that is not so(probably one of the older mappers around, being 52).Yes City I can understand your point on format and will be
more mindfull in the futer.

Also here are some progress screenshots -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/84 ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/84 ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/84 ... hotostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/84 ... hotostream

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obsidian
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Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 01-26-2013 05:08 PM

kaustic wrote:
They say you cant teach an old dog new tricks but I believe that is not so(probably one of the older mappers around, being 52).

You're hardly the oldest person to have graced this forum, but cheers to you all the same for hanging out with us "kids". In contrast, I'm pretty sure cityy doesn't yet have pubic hair.

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kaustic
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Posts: 184

Posted: 01-27-2013 02:03 PM

I knew a guy in the (KEA) Clan (Kill Em All) back 2000/2002 time frame that was in his Sixties. I started gaming back in 1995 when Doom2 was new.
One of my shipmates had installed it on a few computers on the ship and when I seen someone playing it I had to get in on the action. Later on after
I retired from The Navy I finaly bought a computer and when I was having my internet setup at my house The man doing the setup told me about Quake.
Of course I went out and bought it and Iv'e been a Quaker ever since.

More on topic ,does anyone know where I can get my hands on a glass texture with accompanying shader that actully acts/looks like real glass?

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cityy
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Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018

Posted: 01-27-2013 02:11 PM

The Edge Of Forever by sock has a nice glass texture/shader and so does Kamasutra by thefury. Be sure to credit the guys in your readme file if you rerelase their assets.

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Theftbot
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Posted: 01-27-2013 02:32 PM

also fKd's experimental ctf map

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 01-28-2013 07:04 AM

Thank you, thank you very much .

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 03-02-2013 11:06 PM

Ok, finally have an Alfa available.
A little info about the map - This is my smallest map to date. I would say 2 to 6 players will work nicely.
The only patches in the map are used for scrolling fx because it wasnt possible to make the textures
align properly on a prizm brush and get it to look right. At the moment there are no weapons/items.
I used 6 ,12 sided prizms for the blue beams in the one area and I can see sparkles in the vertical edges
so I have to resolve that issue.
Edit:See newest post for updated file D/L

Last edited by kaustic on 03-03-2013 09:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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AEon
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Posted: 03-03-2013 04:44 AM

A few things I can mention without needing to take screenshots:

I wandered around a bit and vis does not seem to work at all. Meaning you see all of the map all of the time. Are all your "inner" walls detail? Might need to look into this to bring down the needless "overdraw" behind your walls.
On the upper floor there are several glass plates in the floor, set into metal frames. IMO it would look better to bring down the glass brush by 4u or so on both sides, to avoid making glass and floor flush. You might then add some player clip to fill in the gap the glass left to keep the floor level and avoid a potential step, though.
One of your JPs in a corner actually catapults you backwards from the lower floor to the upper, this is very confusing. Try ramping the JP somewhat to give the player a hint where he will be tossed.
Another JP catapults you to the upper floor through an octagonal hole (not the one with the glass on the upper floor) in the upper floor. I ran into the JP on the lower floor but kept bumping into the ceiling, not making it through the hole. Either make the hole larger or the trigger brush for the JP about half as large, to help the player actually get to the upper floor.
Above this JP you cut into the ceiling, adding some ceiling decoration showing sky. It would be nice if you continued to cut up the ceilings all over the place. I like your present windows in walls already.
In the room with the huge glass ceiling, all your glass brushes are flush with the metal framing up there, again making the glass less thick, 4u indent, would make the windows look more convincing. Presently the glass looks like it might fall out of the framing up there.
Following a certain design style, not only streamlines the overall look, avoiding randomness, but it can be problematic when it leads to visual repetitiveness of some "aggressive" texture. IMO, you have this problem with the light textures used on every step in the map. When you look at them from the upper floor that is OK, and adds nice lighting, but on the ground floor you seen excessive amounts of white stripes. A "easy" fix would be to use the lights on the steps only for every other step, and some other non-lit texture for the other 50% of them.
Another octagonal hole in the upper floor is surrounded by a glass frame all around. You might want to break that glass ring into 4 or so segments using metal "spokes" to give the glass some more plausible stability. Presently it looks as if the glass would simply fall through the metal frame. Just a design idea.

I like the TP in the curved stair wall, nifty. Hope you can add weapons, items and a bot navigation file next time, to let us better test the layout. So far it looks interesting.

Hope the feedback helps.

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 03-03-2013 07:27 AM

Thank you for your input AEon. Ya the jump pad thru the hole is annoying.I ment to fix that befor I uploaded it.Was kinda late when I packed it up
(or early depending how you want to look at it). Yes, all the interior is detail.With 2747 brushes in the map I left it all detail to avoid some errors
so I could compile and get a look at it in game. I did notice what you mentioned about the stairs.Its almost blinding at certian angles.I think I'm going
to knock down the brightness a bit too.

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kaustic
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Posts: 184

Posted: 03-03-2013 09:45 PM

Added Clips,did all the things AEon suggested ,finished some brush work,added weapons,ammo and items all of
which are subject to change. Also now has an aas for bot support. There are only 7 info playerdeathmatch locations
at this time.
Edit: Map updated -See latest post.

Last edited by kaustic on 03-07-2013 11:53 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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AEon
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Posted: 03-04-2013 12:03 AM

I have been running around in the map for some time now (previous version), so testing the map with bots should really help. I love it when things happen and get done .

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AEon
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Posted: 03-04-2013 02:29 AM

A few things I noted, about the changes:

"Indenting" the glass in floors and ceilings etc. definitely looks better.
So do the spokes for the glass ring, IMO.
I also like all the additional skylights (openings in the ceilings) you added.
Nice skybox, I think I actually had that used for AEdm7 in the very beginning... .
Steps with lighting for every other step also seems to have reduced the visual impact, making the stairs less eye-poking. A good thing.
Items, Weapons and bot file definitely help testing.

You might want to suggest some bots in the .arena file. Here the temp fix I used (though 5 bots it probably a bit much, 4 should do, you might also add location markers for a small 2on2 team arena):
Code:
{
map "aty3dm5"
longname "aty3dm5"
bots "doom tankjr major klesk anarki"
fraglimit 30
type "ffa team"
}

General thoughts, on what might be looked into...
The biggest issue (if one actually wants to call it so), is the lighting on the lower level. The windows (that I like) simply do not let enough light into the lower level, making many areas, e.g. around the PG, RG, and YA too dark, i.e. the player models are barely visible. The lighting shaders do not seem to generate enough light, so you may well have to resort to using light entities. (Yes, I hate having to do that too.)
It occurred to me that you might like to put a small weapon respawn pad in the middle of the glass window in the floor next to the LG, and put the LG on that pad, i.e. add thin metal spokes to "hold up" the pad. That way the LG could be seen from below, maybe.
Generally I feel that the upper floor 3 glass windows in the floor are interesting, but do not really help the gameflow up here. I keep on seeing action on the lower level, where the PG is (i.e. coming from the RL) and trying to get down there more quickly, but the glass will not let me do so. And having to either go to the glass ring/JP or jump down to the angled JP are both very roundabout ways to get to the PG. Might be worth removing the glass above the PG as a test.
A connection, between RG and upper floor, glass in floor maybe, might not only get some light from the skybox to the RG but also let the player see what is going on down at the RG.
Even though I like the design of your TPs... I still cannot quite remember where they lead, though the TP destinations seem to be cleverly placed. Personally I think the fewer TPs a map has the better, so you might think about dropping one TP... but only if you also agree it improves the map, not because of my suggestion.
A third level? This is slightly value, but ever since I started running around your map I felt that certain areas where kind of large, i.e. it took too long to get through those areas, i.e. the RG area and the upper floor above the PG. This may have to do with lack of vertical layout, making the areas slightly boring. Presently the map is basically two pretty much flat levels, so when you run the upper floor, you stay on the same height level most (if not all) the time)... raising the floor/ceiling in several areas (creating more med-levels) on both the lower and upper floor IMO could help make the map even more interesting to navigate. I strongly feel this would give the map a strong final "finish" in gameflow and layout. I could try to suggest something, but I feel it is better if you think about this yourself, should you agree the to the comment, and come up with something surprising. Presently the map very much reminded me of Quake II maps and gameflow (not bad per se, slightly less interesting though).
You use quite a few of the energy sparkle shaders (rising up glass tubes). Presently they are all in sync, making them look sterile and improbable. You might want to create 4-5 shader clones that have different (if possible random, Obsidian would know) offsets in time. Adding more unpredictability to them. One trick would be to use different speeds for the shader movement.
A possible fun thing: I tried several times with the RG to shoot straight through the glue glass corners, to get at the bots that just passed that corner. I think it should be possible to make a special glass shader that lets you shoot through it in this case.
I like the cuts in the ceilings, please add more of those, e.g. in the GL room and other areas.
I still felt that the vertical fighting could be improved on, presently one tends to stay on one level and the interaction with the level above/below is minimal. The two stairs work very well already, but the glass in the floors prohibits additional fighting. Standing around the PG I never actually looked up through the glass on the upper floor. Mainly for laziness reasons, but also because you are pretty much safe from above on the lower floor.

Regarding 5 Hardcore bots in the map (some things to maybe keep in mind):
The biggest issue with the bots is presently (may have to do with item placement and the location of the spawn points) that they tend to hang around the lower level almost exclusively. Thus the upper level is pretty much dead. Maybe adding more spawn points on the upper floor could help. And maybe another yellow armour. Or other items/weapons they go for.
Another thing I noted is that the bots do not seem to use the JPs at all, to be honest I don't use them much either. Normally I spawn on the upper floor to then get down to the lower floor as quickly as possible. I am guessing that there simply is nothing the bots care about "enough" on the upper floor to want them to use a JP. Or they may have some problem navigating the JPs. I noted TankJr actually climbing the stairs to get to the RL though.
The TPs are another thing the bots almost never seem to use. When attacking a bot, and the bot tries to evade the attack I did see them escape via TP, maybe that was just splash damage though. Strange, normally bots do tend to like TPs. Again, I am guessing the TP destinations may not lead to something they are about, though one TP exit was next to the RL IIRC.
I think the bots go for the Haste, so they seem to be able to reach the platform with the Haste on it. And they also seem to be able to reach the 50Hs. Anyway, if you should not have done so yet, using some slim botclip steps might make it easier for bots to get at anything that would require jumping of sorts.

Hope that helps.

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 03-04-2013 09:21 AM

You know I was wanting to make a way down from the upper level to the lower in the area were the Plasma Gun is
and couldnt decide on how I was going to do it. I didnt want it to take up too much floor space but at the same time
I wanted to allow for some fragging action.

Its kinda weird that when I was playing the map last night ,the bots were jumping into the teleporters all the time.
Particularly the one on the lower level buy the stairs that lead to the Haste item. It transports you to the small room
outside the stairs were the Rocket Launcher is. Also they used the one in the Grenade Launcher Area quite a bit.
Most of them would collect the GL and head strait for the Tel.

Teleporters: TP in stair well below RL TP's to- Upper level in raised area buy the glass arch facing towards the stairs
were the Haste is.
TP in Area by the GL TP's to- Area were the Plasma Gun is facing towards the JP buy the windows.
TP in Area between RG and Stairs TP's to- The small room outside the stairs were the Rocket Launcher is
facing towards the stairs

Jumping Bots- You mentioned(AEon) about making it easier for them to get to things via botclip stairs instead of having to
jump(which I hadnt thought of). Anyway I seen Sarge shortcut the corner on the upper level of the central
open area. From the LG side heading towards the RL above the JP. The Trims on the triangular upright arent
clipped and he jumped from the center of the opening to the center of the trim to the small opening between
the uprights. Sometimes bots do things you just dont expect.
I ran the map a few times with bots.I believe I used Sarge,Xaero,Lucy,Phobos,Daemia,Anarchy,Bones,Razor,
Hossman,Tank Jr.

Tubes in in corners/dividers (I like the archways as is)I used the ZapScroll texture and shader with some minor modifications.
I'm no shader expert thats for sure.The only way I can think of that would make them appear random is to take the texture
copy it several times renaming each one then do the same with the shader changing the rate at which the scroll repeats.
Then apply the textures in a random fashion.

Anyway I now have some food for thought and I most sincerely appreciate all of your comments. Will work on the map as
my real job will allow(12 hour shifts with rotating days off in 2 week cycle- work mon/tue , off wed/thur , work fri/sat/sun
off mon/tue , work wed/thur , off fri/sat/sun ,7:00 PM to 7:00 AM or 1900 to 0700).

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AEon
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Posted: 03-04-2013 09:58 AM

I played the map some more using
Code:
bots "tankjr sarge klesk anarki"

that worked rather well.

Bots started to use the TPs more, when a battle started on the upper floor the other bots would also rush there. Sarge seems to be a really good bot for the map.

Will be interesting to see what you come up with .

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kaustic
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Posts: 184

Posted: 03-07-2013 12:39 PM

Ok I got to do some work on this Project -
- Added some frame brushes to the large windows in the ceiling. I think it looks better.
-Removed the tubes from the corners around the central area and the glass will allow ammo to pass through.
-Opened up the wall between the central area and PG area.
-Added some more weapons and ammo,and Red Armor.
-There are now 16 Spawn locations throughout the map.
-Made some minor changes to the floor hight in a few locations.
-Moved the 4 triangular windows from the previous location to above the central area.When looking up through
the glass floor above the PG there was some hom going on in the windows in the upper level ceiling.This also
happened when I tried to put a glass floor in the passage from the GL area to the Haiste area.Along with the
hom I was getting disappearing brushes at curtain angles. A solid floor fixed the issue .
-Added some colored lighting in the areas where there are windows to give a more natural/warmer look.
-Added some texture lights around the map.
The bots seem play it well,especially if you put 15 set to hardcore in the map.

Last edited by kaustic on 03-18-2013 11:30 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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KittenIgnition
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Joined: 06 Nov 2011
Posts: 250

Posted: 03-07-2013 03:02 PM

The clipping around the doorways is really bad, and I dislike the glass(?) around them anyway - it's deceptive and just plain ugly. The glass on the floors also looks bad. It looks like it's just randomly thrown in here and there, without any real cohesion or pattern.

I really liked where I thought the map would go from the first version, but now I really hate the theme

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kaustic
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Posts: 184

Posted: 03-07-2013 03:47 PM

So much for creative criticism. The map is still what I'm considering an Alpha and is not completely clipped off.
Why waist my time clipping everything when its not completely ready for Beta testing. Sorry you dont like it but
I was hoping for creative input from people not a slamfest.

"The glass on the floors also looks bad. It looks like it's just randomly thrown in here and there, without any real cohesion or pattern."

I fail to understand that statement - http://www.flickr.com/photos/kaustic/85 ... hotostream

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AEon
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Posted: 03-07-2013 07:22 PM

Some thoughts:

Removing the energy-surge tubes on the corners was a bit of a surprise, it might work to randomly keep one per corner. It certainly helped to avoid the issue with the using the very same surge shader on 3-5 of the tubes per corner, IIRC. Not sure what the best path here is though. Presently the overall visual noise is lower so that is a plus.
It might be time to think about spawn pads for weapons and armour (and haste), to better anchor these items to their locations in the map. I noted that you use blue/glowing tiles on several areas of the floor, e.g. near the RG. That glow floor texture could be used as a "weapon spawn pad", maybe. The pad you used for the RL is OK as it is, but might not be the choice all over the map, IMO.
The RG area, i.e. the 3-4 step indentation in the floor IMO presently is going too far in size. Especially on the side towards the middle of the map, the edge with RG ammo on has become too narrow, this also happens on the PG side. On the RG side, it might look better to drop the floor to 8 steps down, and to have steps on 3 sides, but not on the window side (pull down the window here, i.e. make it taller), to break the "ring of steps" look.
Bots use the JP under the glass ring now a lot, and the RA and SG on the upper floor seem to work for the bots. Much more fighting on the upper floor.
The GL JP still does not seem to be used though... personally I found that 8-sided hole in the floor confusing, when approaching it e.g. from the RA. The steps upward always made me think I could JP upward in some way, whereas you actually drop down instead. It might be worth trying to make the steps run downward, again maybe not in a complete ring. Also using only 2-3 steps down, and making the hole in the floor larger may help the bots use the JP.
The passage for the RA works pretty well, since it now is a special place for a powerful pick-up. You sloped the edges of the floor on 4 sides around the RA. When you run from the GL to the RA, though, the sloping brush in the floor near the doorway cannot be seen, not until you are pretty much on top of it. When running towards the doorway you always have the feeling you are not seeing geometry or missing it. Nitpicking... but it did disturb me every time.
Able to shoot through corners with glass is kinda fun, but may have turned out gimmicky. Well at least in my last game run I never could really use it. Up to you if you like it keep it, if not not.
The new connection from the central JP to the PG helps. There is a slight danger of another dreaded map feature, the "Swiss cheese" effect of having too many holes/connections all over the place. Note this may yet not be the case in the map, but it is something to keep in mind. A few well placed blocked off paths can be good for interesting gameflow. In my AEdm7 map I struggled with that issue a long time, and ended up blocking a few paths just to enforce a certain, IMO, better gameflow.
The stairs are still the best areas of vertical fighting in the map IMO. To make more use of this already working good feature, you may consider making the stair well up to the RL larger, moving the TP wall outwards by 32u-64u, just to give the players a bit more gameplay area here. Enlarging the haste steps area might also be something to think about. But without needlessly bloating the map. I was thinking of making the steps wider, but pulling them into the map middle more, but that idea could be totally off.
LG and SG on the glass need a weapon pad of some sort, IMO.
I still feel the map could use more "radical" height variation, in the region of at least 8 step heights.

I am becoming more and more aware that my suggestions are starting to meddle into you original vision. So please take any suggestion with a grain of salt and only implement what you really feel is an improvement. Testing suggestions may be a good thing, but only if you are "brave" enough to revert some of them if they do not work as well as expected. Another thing I learned in AEdm7.

Anyway hope the above is of some use.

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 03-09-2013 06:21 AM

My Original idea for those tubes I had in the corners is what I still want to have there.I was trying out that effect just for the sake
of trying something and the more I looked at it the less I liked it.Mostly because of what you had mentioned and I had been thinking
,that they were in sync and definitly way to busy and hard on the eyes. I'm sure I could ask someone how to get the effect I'm looking
for for the tubes but I'm not ready to give up on figuring it out for myself yet. As for the rest, its going to take some time.Ive already
completed a couple of things you suggested ,like pushing the walls out in the stairs by the RL.I figured thats an easy one I could get done
with quickly.I moved them 64 units.Now I'm working on the JP area by the GL(both levels) and the RG area.

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AEon
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Posted: 03-09-2013 11:55 AM

Looking forward to testing the changes.

I played a few more games, and found that the vertical fighting is working well on both stairs and also the central JP pit...

Playing against "tankjr sarge klesk anarki" seems to be enough "action" bot-wise I am finding.

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kaustic
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Posts: 184

Posted: 03-18-2013 12:10 PM

Well here is an update-
- Opened up the JP area near the GL
-Dropped the floor in the RG area, pushed the wall's/window out, widened the floor by arch to central area
-Did some work to the Ceiling windows above the JP's and central area
-Pushed the wall out in the PG area and widened the floor by the central area, change the floor somewhat
-As mentioned in earlier post pushed the walls out in RL area
-Added Weapon/Armor markers
I tried a couple of things on the 2nd level area where the glass floors are and they didn't work out, so for now
there is minimal change to that area. I did notice however that you can receive splash damage through the
glass floors(from rockets of course). I was playing Xaero 1v1 and he was shooting at me through the glass.
EDIT: New pk3 in latest post.

Last edited by kaustic on 04-01-2013 11:41 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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AEon
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Posted: 03-22-2013 03:25 AM

General thoughts about "expanding" maps (in size etc.) from reading your change log (before testing):

The idea is to enforce/encourage as many significant paths as possible, remove all the irrelevant/redundant paths, in the smallest space possible (to avoid needless running around = bloat). So making parts of the map larger can be good, but could start to make your map bloated. That was the reason I was suggesting to keep the overall size (probably did not state it clearly enough) but to work with it differently. E.g. keep the overall size of the map, but make stairs wider, in this case it would mean to move the "inner side" of the stairs more towards the centre of the map. Expanding outward is easier, but needs to be done carefully.

And as always, if you do not like how suggested idea are working out, make sure to go the path you like the most, not what you perceive others may like. You should always be the person who is happiest with the map you are creating. Some of my maps where I did not really know where I was going, listening to external suggestions, did those changes, are among the maps I like least. Ideally external suggestions point out bugs, and gameflow issues, etc... not overall large layout changes.

After running through the map I am happy to say all your expansion look "natural" and good, and IMO really made the map look nicer. Some thoughts:

The stairs leading up to the "glass ring JP" look cut off at the corner towards the PG. Instead of a more of less square layout under the JP, the step edge could be angled off at the corner with the two blue light textures you added.
Spawn pads for weapons and armour are minimalistic but work. Tip: if you use a brush with all sides covered with nodraw, but for the top side, to turn the spawn pads into decals (special option in the shader for that, to let you place the brush flush on the floor but keep it swimming above any floor textures), you could save a few triangles and not need to cut up the floor brushwork. (OK this is nitpicking, but I thought I'd mention the idea).
I like the wider stairs near the RL.
I also like the way the RG area turned out. Now looks much more interesting, same is true for the PG area. Both are now a long way away from boring flat floors.
Lower floor, IMO, could still use more light... around RG and PG, and near the TP under the Haste.
On the upper floor the GL room floor could still use some "unflattening" to make it more interesting.
The GL hole in the floor makes navigation a lot more interesting now. Maybe the hole is slightly too large, though. I still think it might be nifty to have the edge of the hole (from the upper floor) drop by at least 1 step, to make the hole's edge less flat and more interesting.
Maybe add a spawn pad under the Haste.
Your map was not showing in the game's menu, seems to be the "single" option under type in the .arena file. Using this:
Code:
type "ffa team"

let me play the map again via menu.
The bots are now using all JPs, especially the one near the GL, rarely though.
I was always a bit in doubt about your glass floors but I use both of the larger glass areas to see what is going on on the the lower floor, so that seems to work.
Combat around the Haste on the stairs can become quite intense now, that is good I think.
On my Quadcore rig (maxfps 125), I seem to be beginning to notice slight input device lags because the map uses no line of sight blocking, i.e. everything is detail. You may want to start creating a caulk hull for the map, to reduce some of the geometry overdraw. At present it is not yet really an issue, but the more geometric detail you add, the worse it will get. We all like to play crisp / very responsive maps .
Weapons and item placement seem to work pretty well. Nothing really obvious I would change... though I am a Quad fan. Switching between Quad and Haste might be nifty.
Note sure anything can be done, but a bit more verticality on the upper floor would be interesting.

Shaping up nicely your map. I like playing the bots.

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 03-24-2013 10:37 AM

The Idea of using decals for the floor markers had been an option. The issue is, I cant remember How to make a brush a decal.
I used decals quite extensively in my map for the Maverick Servers Comp a couple of years back but those where conveniently
provided by Soc with the corresponding shaders. I have had no luck finding tutorials.

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obsidian
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Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 12498

Posted: 03-24-2013 05:45 PM

It's in the Q3Map2 Shader Manual

_________________
GtkRadiant | Q3Map2 | Shader Manual

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kaustic
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Posts: 184

Posted: 04-01-2013 11:40 AM

Thanks Obsidian for the info .
Changes are as follows-
- Made weapon/armor markers decals.
- Added some additional lighting in PG and RG areas.
- Made an elevated area in the GL area and angled the opening
in the floor downward.
-Relocated some bot clip brushes that I missed when I reworked
some areas of the map .
- Weapon clipped the windows
- Clipped off the map as needed to smooth out doors/walls.
- Created a Caulk Hull to help with Vis. Ran the map with r_showtris 1
and its not rendering the entire map anymore.
I can see you all shaking your heads when I tell you how I did it.
Being my entire map was detail ,with the exception of a caulk box I placed around it
to BSP the map, I decided it would be easier if I just removed from view everything but
the brushes, delete the exterior box then select the entire map, clone it and apply the
Caulk texture to it, Made them structural, deselect ,then I went around and deleted all
the superfluous brushes (removed detail brushes from view). Ya I know but it kept me
from getting frustrated trying to draw brushes inside of brushes.

See Latest post for new pk3.

Last edited by kaustic on 04-04-2013 09:30 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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AEon
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Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493

Posted: 04-02-2013 01:33 AM

Some thoughts:

The decals under the weapons work nicely. There are still brush weapon pads under the LG and the SG on the upper floor cutting up the glass. I am not really sure what to do here. But IIRC a normal decal should work here as well, since decals can be seen from both sides? Or was that a special option Obsidian?
The Quad adds a nice extra level of whimsy to the map. Though the combo of Haste and Quad could be borderline maniacal. The location of the Quad is actually quite clever, but you might want to add some botclip (invisible steps) to help the bots reach the Quad, since presently they completely ignore it. I still think it might be a good idea to try alternating spawns of the Quad/Haste to only have one of either in the map at any given time.
I also hope you will still have the time/nerve to cut up the ceilings some more. Especially the ceiling above the GL could use more sky IMO.
I would also love to see a few more windows, they would not use up many brushes, add lights, plus reduce the canned-in feeling in several parts of the map. E.g.:
Small window on outer wall leading up to the TP/RL.
At RL, to the right of the TP, on the level of the health, again into outer wall.
Near the GL, on the outer wall behind the hole in the floor... just take out one lit metal panel in the wall and replace it with glass/skybox.
Even though this does mess into vis the now flattened floor area of the RA might be a nice place to add glass in the floor, to be able to see what is going on down at the RG.
Noted your vis efforts, i.e. the caulk hull. When standing at the GL you can see the complete central area with the JP/Quad, this should be invisible. If you are interested I could take some screenshots and suggest a few hint brushes?
The blue glass wall ornament near the LG seems to need some player clip, you can jump on the edge from the side.

Hope that helps. Map is definitely getting there.

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 04-02-2013 05:30 AM

When you had suggested earlier about a glass floor in the passage where the RA is I had tried it but I was getting some seriously bad HOM from certain
angles looking down into the RG area and from below looking up I was getting disappearing brushes from certain angles. I spent hours messing with
that area trying to figure out why it was happening. I know that protruding caulk brushes can cause that but there wasn't any and it had me stumped
so I just made the floor solid again. Same reason is why I moved the glass windows from above the SG area because when looking up through the glass
floor the entire window had the HOM effect. I would still like to put glass in those areas. I'll try it again and see if I can get it to work.
I noticed yesterday that the bots weren't going for the quad which I thought was odd. I put the quad there because I seen the bots use the trim on that
partition to cut that corner and I left that trim unclipped just for that purpose. Matter of fact I left most of the trim unclipped so it could be used for jumping
if one was inclined to do so.
Me and Hint brushes just don't work well. I understand how they work and where to put them in curtain situations but for the most part I haven't had much
success using them in my maps. I would be most appreciative if you would drop a few hints on where to put some hint brushes.

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AEon
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Posted: 04-02-2013 02:55 PM

About HOM: indeed caulk may be the reason. Another reason are duplicate brushes (same size at exact same location), that sometimes messes up the renderer, letting you look e.g. out of the map. That may have been the case with the RA glass floor. To spot such duplicate brushes, drag-select (paint select, Ctrl+Shift+LMB-grab IIRC) over the brushes in question. These normally turn light red, should another brush be in the exact same spot the selection would turn a darker red.

Overall the issues with HOM are really frustrating, and saddening.

Alas HOM errors also hint at actual source code errors, that may at times show and then suddenly be gone again, just by adding or removing pretty much unrelated geometry in the map. Under Plugins menu - Bobtoolz - Brush Cleanup some such errors can be fixed. This might also help.

Hint brushes are pretty much trial and error, so remote hinting often will not work very well. But I will give it a try tomorrow. This is by far not a real issue any longer, since we all have such fast hardware.

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kaustic
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Joined: 09 Mar 2011
Posts: 184

Posted: 04-04-2013 09:43 AM

Here is the latest installment. There are a few changes. I think your
just gunna have to DL it to see them.
As for the fixes that aren't outright noticeable,
- I added some weapon clips to the glass wall ornaments.
-Made some small botclip steps for the Quad. I was thinking
that maniacal could be fun so I'll leave both Haste and Quad
in the map.
-Added some extra lighting in a few places.
Edit - new pk3 in latest post

Last edited by kaustic on 04-05-2013 12:47 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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AEon
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Posts: 4493

Posted: 04-04-2013 10:22 AM

Some thoughts...

Glad I did not try to suggest and hint brushes because the issue around the GL no longer is a problem, and the rest of the map looks seems to be only drawing what it should. Extensive hinting might reduce it more, but I would actually advise against that.
I live the design of the window up the stairs from the YA to RA.
Also like the windows behind the GL hole in the upper floor.
The ceiling in the GL room is now brutally open... but it's an interesting alternate way of adding sky, so fine.
Near the YA and at the Haste-TP you added holes in the floor. I'd drop those again. Looking straight down into a skybox almost always looks bad. IIRC there where a few folks that pulled that off well using fog... but my motto would be "you don't need that kind of trouble". I also found them confusing.
I know, I am the glass guy ... a window on the outer wall of the PG room, not too large might still be nice to have.
In general... you have several very very large window areas, that look a bit boring. Some brush-based (8x8u²) metal bars in different patterns might break up the large glass areas and make them more interesting. You did something like that for the window up the stairs near the YA. Especially the GL ceiling could use such grating, and also the RG window, and even the Haste window.
Lighting has very much improved. Everything is a lot brighter now... a good thing IMO.
It has been "bugging" me from the very first version of the map, but to me the central JP (under the Quad) simply looks a bit flimsy, i.e. small. IMO, it should be about 20% larger... if the texture on it is already unstretched (the normal .5 in x and .5 in y) then forget my comment.
If you like you could add some decorative boxes and tubing outside of the windows just to give them a bit more depth outside of the playable map areas.

All this is small stuff, IMO, you map is pretty much done... maybe some tweaking of the sorts, to add a botclip hull (i.e. simplify the map for the bots even more than for players... and edges players might "want" to use, will be ignored by bots anyway... and botclipping ceilings aggressively also works.

Playing the map was fun... bots play well. Though I have the feeling the bots do get a bit snagged around the Quad. But Sarge seems to go for the Quad at least.

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kaustic
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Posts: 184

Posted: 04-05-2013 12:55 PM

Still debating a couple of things but here's the latest.
I forgot to mention that I had added some hint brushes in the GL area and just below it.
They may have helped some.
Finishing up the clipping for the bots. That should be done by the middle of next week.
Have to work this weekend so not much time for mapping until Monday.
Edit: see latest post

Last edited by kaustic on 04-10-2013 10:38 AM, edited 1 time in total.

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AEon
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Posted: 04-06-2013 07:53 AM

Before I forget... please try to make one nice, representative screenshot (might even use a bit of fov 100-120, and noclip), and use that as levelshot. Your mosaic using too many small and far too large of a grid (spacing between images), IMO, is really ugly and does not do the map justice. Compare to id's levelshots, one map image, maybe add the name of the map - e.g. Aty3dm5 - Europa Station - on it (in large letters so that even as an icon the levelshot text can be read, 5-10% of image height would be my guess).
Update: Just noted your checker levelshot... I still very much prefer ONE screenshot at levelshot.

Also try and merge the scripts\sb_iceflow.shader into the aty3dm5.shader fixing the pathing of the skybox to be non-standard, but connected to the maps name, like you did for the other textures. This is to avoid custom map conflicts regarding skybox shaders used "a lot".

Just noted:
Code:
aty3dm5.pk3\env\aty3dmsky
aty3dm5.pk3\env\sb_iceflow
aty3dm5.pk3\env\sor_sea

One i.e. env\aty3dmsky should do as final, delete the other two.

And remember to write up a text file to the map. lvlworld.com IIRC has templates those those. (infos on creation process, credits for textures etc., infiration, time spent on map, ...)

Taking a look at your latest version.

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The Edge Of Forever by sock has a nice glass texture/shader and so does Kamasutra by thefury. Be sure to credit the guys in your readme file if you rerelase their assets.

also fKd's experimental ctf map

Thank you, thank you very much .

Added Clips,did all the things AEon suggested ,finished some brush work,added weapons,ammo and items all of which are subject to change. Also now has an aas for bot support. There are only 7 info playerdeathmatch locationsat this time. Edit: Map updated -See latest post.

I have been running around in the map for some time now (previous version), so testing the map with bots should really help. I love it when things happen and get done .

Looking forward to testing the changes.I played a few more games, and found that the vertical fighting is working well on both stairs and also the central JP pit...Playing against "tankjr sarge klesk anarki" seems to be enough "action" bot-wise I am finding.

It's in the Q3Map2 Shader Manual

Added Clips,did all the things AEon suggested ,finished some brush work,added weapons,ammo and items all of
which are subject to change. Also now has an aas for bot support. There are only 7 info playerdeathmatch locations
at this time.
Edit: Map updated -See latest post.

Looking forward to testing the changes.

I played a few more games, and found that the vertical fighting is working well on both stairs and also the central JP pit...

Playing against "tankjr sarge klesk anarki" seems to be enough "action" bot-wise I am finding.