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Topic Starter Topic: Re: AEon needs a new PC :)
AEon
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PostPosted: 04-09-2010 05:17 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Foo,
yeah... and the two connectors to the main board of course. This setup should yield a really clean cable layout... in my present PC all the IDE cables (round, yellow) though better than the flat cables still got in the way... "ATX Midi Cooler Master HAF Mini RC-922M-KKN1-GP - black" lets you put in the HDDs at an 90° angle, so again the cables point toward the mainboard side of the tower and are *not* in the airflow.

Win7 Questions

  • How strict is the account management in Win7?
    I have been reading up on various driver updates for the P6T Deluxe V2, e.g. for LAN/Ethernet, with this info:
    Code:
    NOTE: To install the driver, you have to be logged in as
          a user with administrative rights.
    Under WinXP "everyone" was running his PC with admin rights (at least I think I did ;)). But from what I read about Win7 the account management is a lot more strict (more along lines of e.g. Linux accounts)?

    How does this actually work in Win7? Do you automatically create an admin account that you need to log into when installing certain software (probably anything critical i.e. driver/system related), plus you have to create a "user account", that you would be using most of the time, that also lets you install games and the like?

    Under WinXP you basically could install software for the "current account" (that was an admin account) or "globally"... maybe I never really understood what was going on under XP. Hmmm...

  • Any other fundamentals that a Win7-newbie should be aware of?

  • I'll probably get a complete Kaspesky AV set (possibly with firewall), because I want to avoid deinstalling my Kaspersky on the working WinXP PC. Or does Win7Pro actually provide some useful Anti-Virus protection out of the box?

  • Backup Tool in Win7?
    I read up on that, but there is always talk of a "complete environment backup". Since I am used to simply backup the C:\ partition (that contains everything relevant via Norton Ghost)... I am wondering about that phrase. Has anyone ever used this sort of backup and what experiences did he/she make with the Win7 tool?

Sorry to bug you folks, but I'd like to understand the fundamentals, before I mess up something.
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Foo
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PostPosted: 04-09-2010 05:49 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
[*] How strict is the account management in Win7?
I have been reading up on various driver updates for the P6T Deluxe V2, e.g. for LAN/Ethernet, with this info:
Code:
NOTE: To install the driver, you have to be logged in as
      a user with administrative rights.
Under WinXP "everyone" was running his PC with admin rights (at least I think I did ;)). But from what I read about Win7 the account management is a lot more strict (more along lines of e.g. Linux accounts)?

How does this actually work in Win7? Do you automatically create an admin account that you need to log into when installing certain software (probably anything critical i.e. driver/system related), plus you have to create a "user account", that you would be using most of the time, that also lets you install games and the like?


Windows 7 has 'elevation' which is basically the same as doing a su in Linux to jump up to root. In Win 7, everything runs by default in your session under non-administrative permissions. However, if a program requires administrative permissions, then when you load it, the screen will dim and a prompt will appear asking if you approve the program for administrative access. You can also explicitly launch a program with admin priveledges by right-clicking it and selecting 'Run As Administrator'.

The practical impact of this is pretty low. Almost all programs and drivers will give you a prompt when being installed, and then not bother you again after that. In a few cases, a program with compatibility issues may need you to click 'yes' every time you load it. The only program I've had to do this with so far is the VMWare VI Client at work, and I believe it's been fixed in the latest updates.

So no faffing around creating extra accounts or switching accounts or any of that jazz.

Quote:
Under WinXP you basically could install software for the "current account" (that was an admin account) or "globally"... maybe I never really understood what was going on under XP. Hmmm...


Yeah this still pops up now and again in Vista and Win 7. It basically decides whether the program is installed under the 'Program Files' folder on your root drive, or installed in the Application Data folder under the 'Documents and Settings' folder. In the latter case, that folder is private to your user account and hence not visible to other users.

Quote:
[*] Any other fundamentals that a Win7-newbie should be aware of?


[*] I'll probably get a complete Kaspesky AV set (possibly with firewall), because I want to avoid deinstalling my Kaspersky on the working WinXP PC. Or does Win7Pro actually provide some useful Anti-Virus protection out of the box?


Windows Security Essentials is the way to go with this. It's the MS-issued AV and the only reason it didn't ship with the OS is antitrust concerns. It's free and absolutely seamless. Likewise, the built-in firewall is solid. I wouldn't recommend any third-party AV or firewall software on Windows 7, as the built in stuff plus a copy of MSE are all I need.

Quote:
[*] Backup Tool in Win7?
I read up on that, but there is always talk of a "complete environment backup". Since I am used to simply backup the C:\ partition (that contains everything relevant via Norton Ghost)... I am wondering about that phrase. Has anyone ever used this sort of backup and what experiences did he/she make with the Win7 tool?



http://imgur.com/zvgSo.jpg
http://imgur.com/qxgbd.jpg
http://imgur.com/yHrkG.jpg
http://imgur.com/aXbkU.jpg
http://imgur.com/2M5nb.jpg
http://imgur.com/yxctr.jpg

In terms of what's created, the 3 items are shown here:
http://imgur.com/yxctr.jpg
I could have probably pointed it to a subfolder to keep things neater.

Trying to open the Foo-PC folder pops up a restore menu automatically:
http://imgur.com/gMW0U.jpg
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-09-2010 08:46 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Foo,
thanks for the info.

Win7 Elevation
Sounds "simple"... so you'll basically have to "allow" a lot at the beginning of the install, when adding all the software and driver updates.

I'll continue to prefer to have everything places in "Program Files", though quite a few tools do not seem to actually let you follow through with this. Have been finding all sorts of data in "Documents and Settings" folders (under XP)... annoying.

Windows Security Essentials
In general I am very suspicious of anything that is mainstream, because such software often gets targeted first. But since several other sources (WSE Wiki) recommend it, it should be fine. I like the idea of seamless integration. Plus it's for free. KAV would have cost me a pretty penny.

KAV had the option to do a full scan, this included the listing of potential threats, i.e. software that has been known to have security issues, where a update is recommended. Does WSE have something like that as well?

Is it possible to download the complete package for an offline install? From WSE Site, I downloaded mssefullinstall-amd64fre-en-us-vista-win7.exe, this seems to be a "webinstaller". I'd prefer not having to wait for the package to download, once I am putting the PC together. I only have a slow 45KB/s connect.


Backup Tool in Win7?
Still feels a bit flaky. But these backups seem to let you select the C:\ drive, plus your custom data folders, so it seems to be kosher... I guess I'll only trust it after it actually saved my butt.


Started to read the P6T Deluxe V2 manual... seems to be relatively simple to add a boxed CPU cooler. Goes to show that user friendliness has actually come "some way" in the last about 8 years.


Floppy Disk
Does anyone still use a floppy disk? I only used it for things like BIOS updates, and some Windows Restore I never did (under XP). The P6T seems to let you use a USB Stick to update the BIOS, i.e. so I should be able to kick the floppy.

USB Stick
Any recommendation for a proven fast and good one. Should probably have 8GB, to let me in theory backup a DVD on it (i.e. my software archive).
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obsidian
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PostPosted: 04-09-2010 10:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


My 620 PSU has modular cables too. Maybe that one is slightly newer? I know mine comes with the 6-pin GPU connectors.

Do you really need the USB hub and cable? My mobo comes with 8 USB ports on the back, plus I think 4 to 8 internal case connectors and the optional rear case bracket.

What's a floppy? :p

USB memory is generally all the same. Just buy the cheapest at the capacity you want. There are a few that have faster transfers, but only if you expect to be copying a lot of large files back and forth. Expect to pay a premium for those, and generally not really worth it.



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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-09-2010 01:16 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
My 620 PSU has modular cables too. Maybe that one is slightly newer? I know mine comes with the 6-pin GPU connectors.

Think so too... slightly newer.

Quote:
Do you really need the USB hub and cable? My mobo comes with 8 USB ports on the back, plus I think 4 to 8 internal case connectors and the optional rear case bracket.

I noted that... on my present PC with 6 USB ports I was getting into a few issues.

I need the hub, because I'll be using a 5m USB (A,B) cable from the PC (in the next room) to my desk with the monitor/keyboard/mouse on it. The hub will then let me connect all the USB stuff locally (on my desktop). Ironically I only need one single USB port on the PC-side. (Together with the DVI-D 5m cable, and a headphone cable 3.5mm, the PC should be "remotely" connected.)

Reason? The new PCs stink (can we say "nerve poisoning") like hell, I usually get really bad headaches from new PCs. 2nd reason when I close the door my work environment is actually silent :)... at least that is my hope.
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PostPosted: 04-09-2010 02:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I bought an 8GB Corsair Flash Voyager for $11 from NCIX :shrug:
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-10-2010 05:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


So last night I did some more checking, most of the hardware already was the at an all-time low (cost-wise), I could save about 140 EU... unless something comes up this is pretty much what I will be ordering these next few days (hopefully).

Code:
219,85 €MF  ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 X58 S1366 ATX
228,00 €MF  Intel Core i7 920 2.67GHz 4800MT/s S1366 8MB 130W BOX
289,00 €MF  1024MB Powercolor Radeon HD5850 PCS+ GDDR5 PCIe 2.1 (MB has 2.0!) 760 MHz
179,37 €MF  3x2048MB Mushkin Blackline DDR3-1600 CL7 Kit "Black Frostbyte"
194,65 €MF  80GB Intel X25-M G2 Postville 2.5" SATA Retail [80 GB, 250 / 70 MB/s]
83,25 €MF  ATX Midi Cooler Master HAF Mini RC-922M-KKN1-GP - black
22,84 €MF  LG GH22LS50 SATA Black Retail
9,02 €MF  4GB Verbatim Store 'n' Go PinStripe USB-Key Hot Pink 20 MB/s (Read) 10 MB/s (Write)

25,20 €MF  Cherry G81-3000LPCDE-2 black
29,33 €MF  Logitech MX518 Optical Gaming Mouse USB Refresh [Optical, 1800dpi, Win7]
28,50 €MF  NZXT Sentry 2 TouchScreen Fan Controller
6,52 €MF  Silverstone SST-SDP08 Bay Converter 3,5 to 2x 2,5"

103,99 €KM  Corsair Netzteil 650 HX - 650 Watt
42,99 €KM  Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ,500 GB,7200rpm,16 MB Cache
42,99 €KM  Samsung Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ,500 GB,7200rpm,16 MB Cache

124,90 €AL  Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-Bit (UK)

11.30 €Kab  Digitus® USB 2.0 Hub 7-Port
1.80 €Kab  USB 2.0 Connector Type A to B B, Black, 5m
1.20 €Kab  Klinkenverlängerung 3,5mm Klinke St. / Bu., Länge: 5m
10.50 €Kab  DVI DL Anschlusskabel 24+1 St. an 24+1 St., 5m, schwarz
-----
1649  € (was 1786€, -137€)


Alas after comparing what you guys bought and at what prices, it seems the ATI HD 5850 was way too cost-efficient and fast (with DX11) blowing the GTX 285 (same price level, about 300 EU) right out of the water. Result ATi seems to have raised the prices in the last 6 or so months. Same seems to have happened for DDR3 RAM. Sigh.

Wonder how long it will take, after putting everything together, until I am "happy" enough with the software install to actually start playing games... if it was a XP install, I'd say one day putting the hardware together, and another day to install XP and all the primary tools I need. But since all the hardware is new, some major reading up on what all the software can do will probably take weeks. Last time (8 years ago) I was running all sorts of benchmark tests, just to see "how" much better the system was.

Any other ideas / suggestions appreciated.
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Foo
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PostPosted: 04-10-2010 06:06 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Just get it, build it, and start using it bro.

Everything else is just masturbation ;)
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obsidian
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PostPosted: 04-10-2010 06:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
USB-Key Hot Pink


:eek:



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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-10-2010 06:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


obsidian wrote:
AEon wrote:
USB-Key Hot Pink

:eek:

Note, this is actually a pretty fast USB stick... the other color would have been neon green... ieek.
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-10-2010 03:55 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


So I've ordered the whole shebang... once everything is here, it will mean a *lot* of fiddling and reading.
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PostPosted: 04-10-2010 04:11 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Enjoy :up:

Assembling a new rig is a lot of fun and a learning experience. Installing programs on the other hand... :puke:
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PostPosted: 04-10-2010 07:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


NP, just `apt-get install ubuntu-desktop`.
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-11-2010 03:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


^misantropia^ wrote:
NP, just `apt-get install ubuntu-desktop`.

Wat eezz theezz? Never hear of it... some desktop theme/style?

Update: By accident I actually stumbled over "ubuntu"... was following a tip on how to "unlock" PDF files, in that OS it seems to be simple. Ironic :)




Last edited by AEon on 04-12-2010 03:45 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: 04-11-2010 06:39 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lol, do that on a separate partition.
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-14-2010 07:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Today, most of the hardware arrived:


Still waiting for the mainboard, keyboard and fan controller.

I took a close-up shot of the memory box... I have never seen so much effort being put in safeguarding DDR3 memory... uncanny.

obsidian, note the hot pink memory stick ;)

Thank you obsidian and foo for your feedback, without your help I would had a *lot* more trouble finding the "right" hardware. Starting to put things together now, hopefully that will go well.
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cityy
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PostPosted: 04-14-2010 07:35 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That's so sexy. :drool:



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obsidian
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PostPosted: 04-14-2010 08:21 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pink to match the panties?



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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-14-2010 09:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It seems I wasted a few Euros on the mounting rack for the 2.5" Intel X25-M SSD, since the retail version includes such an 2.5" adapter to 3.5"... alas I could not find the info anywhere.

The drive is tiny...
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PostPosted: 04-14-2010 03:04 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I have to say AEon, the amount of effort you put into your research and posting on this subject is fucking inspirational. I also like the "parts ready for assembly" picture. Hope you enjoy using this PC as much as you seem to enjoy putting it together :D :up:
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-15-2010 02:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


U4EA,
:)

The reason for this is that I don't live in any large city were you can "just" go right into the next shop to get what you might have missed. So, I am pretty much forced to plan it out carefully. Ironically, one cable was wrong, (USB cable to the USB hub needs a Mini-USB socket, was not mentioned in the info sheets), and I needed an additional patch cable (Ethernet).

The other more important reason is that I normally do not look into hardware that much - the last time was about 8 years ago - thus the help from foo and obsidian was invaluable to me, to find the hardware that is "current", has "future potential", and is "affordable".

Presently waiting for the mainboard... hopefully I'll get it in the next few days. I'll post some more shots once I have built everything into the tower.

BTW: I am trying to set up the PC on a 5m "leash" from my Monitor, so that I can basically roll it into the next room, and "shut" the door on any noise.




Last edited by AEon on 05-02-2013 11:12 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Foo
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PostPosted: 04-15-2010 03:00 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
one cable was wrong, (USB cable to the USB hub needs a Mini-USB socket, was not mentioned in the info sheets)


You should be able to find a pack of USB converters that'll convert the regular USB connection down to the size you want. Probably more of them available than 5m micro-USB connections.

I found a pack that worked fine in a £1 store.
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-15-2010 04:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


foo,
since the whole cable did not cost much, I got a new one, instead of using an adapter that will cost about the same. Personally I try to avoid adapters where possible. Thanks for the tip though.

Note: The more modern hardware seems to think printed manuals are for chumps, and that a one-page leaflet is more than enough. So in most cases you have to do some digging on the manufacturer's page to actually find a "useful" manual. Cost efficiency at all costs? Note we are talking retail here.
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PostPosted: 04-15-2010 05:12 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Captain Mazda wrote:
Assembling a new rig is a lot of fun and a learning experience. Installing programs on the other hand... :puke:


A small tip: I have a folder called "Archive" that contains all the software I install on my PCs (Tools, drivers etc.), together with configurations. The better tools like UltraEdit, Directory Opus or TheBat let you completely backup everything, so you just have to "restore" your settings and you are good to go... saving a huge amount of time on the new system. Interestingly, installing tools on a new system often reveals how few tools you actually need, and how much "junk" you accumulated over the years on the old system.
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-17-2010 04:24 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


After waiting for the mainboard for a few extra days, here the new PC build:


    1) Very clean cable build, I wanted to get *everything* out of the airflow, and moved all the cables to the back of tower, behind the mainboard. Due to the pretty nifty layout/design of the CoolMaster HAF 922 this is possible. And of course the exclusive use of SATA cables really helped keep things tidy, not to forget the modular cables the Corsair 650 HX provides.

    2) Detail of the 3.5" rack... from top to bottom HDD, SSD, HDD, above that the DVD burner. Alas there is *no* way to get the power supply cables for the ATi HD 5850 out of the airflow, so I decided to wrap it compactly.

    3) The ASUS PT6 Deluxe V2 comes with a nice "blend" for all the "ports".

    4) Just here for ambience... you can see the large 20cm front fan, that actually has red LEDs...

    5) On the other side of the mainboard I have tried to place the cables as neatly as possible, even though no one will ever see it normally. Just shows what can be done with cable binders and a clean layout.


    a) Not knowing how loud and stinky (think chemicals evaporating) the PC will turn out to be, I have added a complete set of 5m long cables that will let me roll the PC next door. To better move the tower I build this "rolling tray".

    b) Those wheels are 30 years old by the way. We had them lying around for ages, and finally they are of some use.

    c) The mounted 80GB Intel X25-M G2 SSD (Solid State Drive), with adapter to fit into those 3.5" drive bays.

    d) In case you are wondering what the big deal was with 5), this is the way it looked before I cleaned up the cable layout.

    e) The ATi card still wrapped up... added for fun.

    f) The ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 comes with quite a lot of extras. The angled-off SATA cables (3 of the 6 included feature this) came in really handy for the HDDs & the SSD.

    g) This is a quite interesting detail. These ASUS Q-Connectors let you stick on all the tower related cables (PWR Switch, Reset, DE LED, PWR LED, Speaker) without much hazzle. You can then stick the whole Q-Connector on the main board. It used to be a real pain having to align the cables properly.

    g) Stuff that came with the tower. The adapter lets you place a 3.5" Floppy Disk drive in a 5 1/4" bay if you like. Luckily, the FDD is dead, this mainboard lets you use the USB-stick instead.

Build time, including lots of manual reading and BIOs tests about 8 hours. Still need to install Win7Pro... that will be for tomorrow though.




Last edited by AEon on 04-17-2010 11:47 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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obsidian
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PostPosted: 04-17-2010 07:50 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nice to see it working well. Very neat cable management.



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MKJ
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PostPosted: 04-18-2010 06:28 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
Captain Mazda wrote:
Assembling a new rig is a lot of fun and a learning experience. Installing programs on the other hand... :puke:


A small tip: I have a folder called "Archive" that contains all the software I install on my PCs (Tools, drivers etc.), together with configurations. The better tools like UltraEdit, Directory Opus or TheBat let you completely backup everything, so you just have to "restore" your settings and you are good to go... saving a huge amount of time on the new system. Interestingly, installing tools on a new system often reveals how few tools you actually need, and how much "junk" you accumulated over the years on the old system.


http://ninite.com/
might be useful for you
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AEon
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PostPosted: 04-23-2010 04:46 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


MKJ wrote:
http://ninite.com/
might be useful for you

Wow... nifty page... pretty radical to simply have the tools installed without prompts. But the list of tools is really interesting, a few I am aware of, the others (in part as least) might really be interesting to look into. Thanks.
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phantasmagoria
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PostPosted: 04-24-2010 02:06 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


MKJ wrote:

http://ninite.com/
might be useful for you


what a spectacular idea :up:

though they don't have foobar or media player classic under the media players



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U4EA
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PostPosted: 04-24-2010 05:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


phantasmagoria wrote:
what a spectacular idea :up:

Agreed :up:

phantasmagoria wrote:
though they don't have foobar or media player classic under the media players

Image

D:
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obsidian
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PostPosted: 04-24-2010 07:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


magoria@ishitbats.com

:olo:



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AEon
Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 04-24-2010 08:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I had been using MPC for years under WinXP, but when I tried to get things set up properly under Win7, it became apparent how annoying it is trying to find all the codecs... I installed VLC, changed the key bindings the way I wanted and use that from now it... since it simply comes with all the video codecs I'll be needing.
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phantasmagoria
Bück Dich
Bück Dich
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Posts: 6228
PostPosted: 04-26-2010 02:07 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


:olo:

Requested :up:

Aeon, I've never had to install any codecs with MPC. I find it's much better at handling large data files and HD whereas VLC stutters and messes me about a bit, but VLC handles (for me at least) DVD discs and smaller media much more neatly, I use a combination of the two.



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AEon
Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 04-27-2010 05:14 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


True... I noted that VLC is a bit less responsive. That you do not need to install codecs means that you either have downloaded it with some codec package or that you don't watch many different video formats. I download demo movies for games quite a bit, and most of them are not mp4 but mov or some other weird formats.

Alas yesterday I wanted to play a .bik movie from some car race demo, VLC did not support that :(... drat. Maybe the game messed with the encoding to prohibit this.
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Foo
Timed Out
Timed Out
Joined: 02 Aug 2000
Posts: 38064
PostPosted: 04-27-2010 05:24 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


bik (blink video) is a fairly special case, a bit like id's roq format. Doubtful you'll find a filter for that on many players, but blink offer a standalone player (IIRC).
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