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Topic Starter Topic: "Highline" Tourney [ALPHA 6]
Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-01-2017 09:14 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Highline
by Pat Howard

DOWNLOAD ALPHA 6





-pat




Last edited by Pat Howard on 06-29-2017 12:41 PM, edited 8 times in total.
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-03-2017 03:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ran around for a bit, here's my quick thoughts. It's hard to get a good feel how a map plays by simply running around, so keep that in mind.

First impressions:
A lot of the weapons feels randomly placed, with not much thought behind them. They are also very clustered together, almost like you tried to fit every single weapon on the map for no apparent reason.
Unless you don't want to entice spam in certain places, I'd for instance place GL where RG is now, to make it easy to spam someone who went for MH.
I'm also not completely sold on RA placement. Only one way to get up there, and since RL is placed near that path, there's no easy way to RJ up there unless you already have one.

The entire left side of the map feels like a powerstack for whoever's in control. They have access to:
RG, RL, YA, RA, MH, SG and LG?
Right side has YA, GL and PG

Like I mentioned earlier, these are just my thoughts from running about for 10 mins. Maybe it feels better when you play someone. :)
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-03-2017 08:21 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@fjoggs: thanks for replying.

i actually have put a bit of thought into the weapon placement -- this map just happens to be a tough one to crack for some reason. or maybe i'm just out of practice :)

i have thought about putting the GL up where the rail is now, but i am honestly not sure where else to put the rail in this map. the only other option imo is to put it in the low corridor where the LG is now, but i like the LG down there where it is not immediately useful, yet still encourages people to revisit the low corridor. i do think you're kind of right about the weapons being lopsided, so i am gonna move that nook that holds the LG down the hall a bit, closer to the YA room so that it doesn't feel like it's just sitting outside the RA room. i want it to feel more like it's between the two rooms in its own little place.

i have played some 1v1 on this map and i like the RA mechanic. maps that have only one non-weapon-assisted way to RA have worked in the past. (think blood run, which was the main inspiration for this map.) it encourages a lot of rocket jumping which i think is cool. an earlier version of this map had a RL on the floor below the RA, but that felt like too much of a gimmick. a player could spawn on the floor in that room and rocket jump straight to the RA, then come back down and scoop up a health and be back at 100/100.

thanks for your suggestions. try the new item placement when you get a chance. it's updated now.
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-04-2017 09:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hm, did you upload the wrong version? This one doesn't have any changes.
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-04-2017 10:36 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


shit, sorry.

i used to be able to update the .pk3 in my dropbox and the link would just go to the new version. now it seems like dropbox creates a new link for every new file.

it should be fixed now.
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-04-2017 11:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


As I go:

Why are you placing ammo in pairs? Ammo placement in general feels off. (two packs of PG ammo feels overkill)
(rocket ammo next to RG when the RL is a few meters away?)
I'd swap Haste for something else. It's a bit of a boring powerup for FFA.
Not convinced on the new RG placement. I would rather place it where haste is now, and then place PG where RG is. (Would give more incentive to visit the right side of the map)
Parts of the map feels very claustrophobic, especially some of the hallways. Maybe widen them a bit? The MH/RL atrium also feels a bit cramped. (I think this is partially due to all the weird ledges and the overhang along the MH wall)
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-04-2017 11:56 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


GJ btw. Nice to see some new maps around these parts. :)
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-04-2017 12:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


yeah i haven't thought that much about the ammo i guess. it probably could use some tweaking. and i agree haste is kind of boring. i'll try other powerups. i am only concerned about tourney gameplay right now though.

that map doesn't feel cramped to me. in fact it feels pretty big. the games are quite slow and it's hard to dominate the RA without giving up a bunch of other stuff to the down player. i don't think it's a bad thing though, as long as the map is balanced.

wouldn't your RG position place the RG and the LG very close to each other on the ground level? that's something i was trying to avoid. it seems wrong to have the two most powerful guns right next to each other like that. i could put a RL where the LG is and swap all the guns around.

Fjoggs wrote:
GJ btw. Nice to see some new maps around these parts. :)


cheers. thanks for the feedback. it really sucks making a map in a vacuum.
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-04-2017 01:02 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pat Howard wrote:
wouldn't your RG position place the RG and the LG very close to each other on the ground level? that's something i was trying to avoid. it seems wrong to have the two most powerful guns right next to each other like that. i could put a RL where the LG is and swap all the guns around.


It's not that close though, is it? There's also nothing but the LG down there, so going from new RG to LG means you're basically giving up a lot of items on the upper levels. Your call though, of course. :)
I would like to see some form of a main weapon in that atrium though. Doesn't have to be RG. Maybe move the second RL (in RA room) further into the hallway that leads to PG/GL/YA room.

Ammo in general is one of the things I feel people vastly underestimate in their maps, and it can play a big part in how a map plays. For instance, if you removed the LG ammo, you would force players to go to a low interest part of the map (nothing but LG basically) to simply restock.

What was your idea behind the SG placement? Might be better suited elsewhere. (one of the corridors perhaps)
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-04-2017 01:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


interesting thought about the LG ammo. i usually like at least one LG ammo in my maps, but i should definitely think more about where i place it given the unique location of the LG in this case.

the shotty was placed where it is because i just felt like there needed to be a weapon down low in the RA room. i felt like you'd be totally fucked if you spawned low in there and encountered anyone in the first few seconds. the shotty kind of sucks in this map in general, but it would definitely be more powerful if it was placed in a tighter area. plasma, on the other hand, is surprisingly good in this map. it's weird to feel ambivalent about whether you have the plasma or the lightning up in Quake, but that's often how i feel when playing this map. that's why i don't think the YA room is actually that weak with just the PG in it, because PG is so strong, and you also have the LG waiting right outside the room for you.

the .map file is in the maps file of the pk3 so if there is any loadout you think would work and want to try you could edit it and send it back to me. only if you're interested, of course.
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-06-2017 01:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Gonna take a look at the new version when I get the time. :)
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-06-2017 12:01 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


OK, played a quick round vs cpma bot (so slightly less tard than the normal bots :P )

I added my thoughts to your mapfile. These are basically my take on what I would change the map if I was making it. Hopefully you'll get something out of it. :) I may have gone a little overboard, but hey, I had some fun! Added some pictures where I felt it was necessary, and the new .mapfile.
I like the changes you've made so far, and I wont harass you any more, so feel free to begin detailing. :D

Map file:
.map download link

-Removed what I consider unnecessary complexity and annoyances surrounding the MH hallway.


-Moved spawnpoint below RA to the PG corner (adds slightly more protection to an otherwise dangerous spawn. (Also makes it easier to quickly grab plasma and plasmaclimb up to RA)

-Moved GL to the edge

-Moved spawnpoint near YA to face YA and RL

-Added SG to the hallway between MH and RG. Made that hallway slightly bigger to prevent players from force-picking it up. (Also moved spawnpoint slightly)

-Moved spawnpoint that was at the entrance to RA from old RG spot, to the old RG spot. Also added SG ammo to the same place

-Widened entrance to RA from said spot (where spawnpoint was before)

-Added a small path, and cut the corner going from RL->YA/RG->RL. That cut off felt like it didn't really add anything but making it slightly harder to get across.


-Moved spawnpoint in YA room to face YA, and not the wall. In general, you should try to place spawnpoints that aims towards something on the map, for instance the YA or the RG in that room. This helps players immedietaly recognize their surroundings

-Added rocket ammo to LG hallway entrance at YA/RG

-Added "windows" between RG YA and the JP. Also removed the ceiling. I feel like part of the reason why the map feels so claustrophobic, is all the low ceilings. The JP also feels more part of the map with the added windows.


-Widened the entrances to the LG hallway. They felt too closed off for my liking, and had more of "side-hallway" feel. Hallways that see a lot of action should be slightly wider than the rest to prevent fights from being complete splashfests. This goes for entrances too.


-Moved 1 25 health bubble from YA room to RL hallway, and made it slightly wider at one point to accommodate moving the spawnpoint to the corner.
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v1l3
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PostPosted: 06-06-2017 12:19 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I like it..r_speeds seemed a bit tough in spots though
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-06-2017 05:23 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


v1l3 wrote:
...r_speeds seemed a bit tough in spots though

?

Fjoggs wrote:
I like the changes you've made so far, and I wont harass you any more, so feel free to begin detailing.

it's cool, man. you are pretty much the only one commenting so i am kind of starving for feedback :)

i made some of the entity tweaks you suggested. some of the structural changes look a little too weird visually for me, but they are good ideas. i'll see what i can do about the side hallway bouncer behind the YA. i've ended up with one of those in my last four maps. i guess it's my go-to method for adding a bouncer in a small room.

i haven't missed the shotty at all since i took it out so it's probably going to stay out of this map.

i widened the upper path from the YA room to the RA room (actually did that yesterday). as far as the other paths into that room, i want them to act like choke points because they are strong paths and they need to be balanced out.

i removed the ledge above the MH. i almost never used it and you can easily jump from the GL path to the YA in that room anyway.

i cut back the high ledge above the RA by 128 units because i realized you could snipe all three doorways from the end of it. i moved the RG ammo in the space carved into the wall down to the floor and put two 5 healths in its place. it looks like this now:



i also added an alternate way to triple-jump up the wall behind the low RL in case you get pinned there.



i have no idea where i am going to find time to detail this map but we'll see what happens. i am thinking about using sock's medieval texture set. i have always wanted to use his palace set but i kind of want this to be an indoor/outdoor map and that is definitely an indoor set.
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-07-2017 02:48 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If you're short on time, then I'd suggest using the medieval set instead of the palace set. So much easier to use. Doesn't look as good naturally, but good enough. :)

One thing I found to increase my efficiency when time was short, was to do the level in passes. First pass I'd add simple texturing and trims to the entire map. Second pass I'd do a slightly more in-depth detailing phase. Some of my maps never left that phase because I lost interest/time (Fjo3ctf1 being the best example, where a lot of the walls are high and flat etc)
Third pass would be my final pass, and usually the longest.

This way you'll have a map that you can release, even though you're not completely finished. (alternative being that you have two rooms that are done, and the rest of the map still in block phase)
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cityy
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PostPosted: 06-16-2017 11:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hey Pat, I finally found some time to check out the map. Made my feedback paintovers extra ugly, hope you can read it.

My general feeling is that the layout needs more work. Rooms feel very isolated from each other which makes it flow a bit chewy. I'd suggest the following changes for now:

General Layout:
- low ground (red): create a diagonal line of sight between RA room and the lower MH staircase (don't make MH itself visible); Give railgun a chance man, path to YA goes orthogonally from that connection
- high ground (green): Remove the stairs between MH and RA room; go into RA room on high ground - Move RA to the side of the room where the GL ammo is now, that way you make fights work in more dimensions and the room becomes less tube like - see if you can allow a line of sight from the low corridor to RA somehow, make plasma climbing from middle ground to RA possible - the high platform coming from MH should be opposing to RA, the distance can be jumpable but it should be a bridge to rail level of jump
- high ground (blue): MH is tough right now; consider a tele as marked in the concept; that way it's still a vulnerable pickup but less of a death trap. Also adds some more vertical fighting potential to the room; tele exit should be a high ledge forcing you to jump onto the pillar and leading to YA room high ground.



RA Room:
- another screen for clarification; I think the diagonal corrdior would help the rooms without making the map too open


MH Room:
- another screen for clarification; make that geometry more clear, offer some more space for fights on low ground; you don't need that ledge, it doesn't help the room in that position
- don't put RL into a corner, that just interrupts the flow.



Edit: Please provide us with a top down screenshot of where initial spawns are!
Edit2: With that high connection from MH to YA room you may as well consider nesting another entirely new (small) area between those two rooms. Maybe you can fit in another YA there.



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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-23-2017 01:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@cityy:

thanks for the feedback. i have actually still been working on this map but i did not see your reply until now because i have been traveling without internet. just before i left i had another playtest and i left that session really just feeling like the upper level connectivity in this map sucked, like you kind of said in your feedback. it was just three rooms connected in a ring. i was thinking more about the lower level and i didn't realize how boring the upper level was.

some of your suggestions are really cool, but i decided to go a different way about fixing this map.

i think the root of the flawed connectivity was the entrances in the RA room. they were all on one side! (opposite the RA), which left me with no space to create interesting connections on the upper level. i moved one of those upper doors to the other corner of the room, below and to the right of the RA if you are sitting on it, to make the room more multi-directional. i then mirrored the MH room, so it is actually now back to the original way i built the room before you guys ever saw the map. the YA room got rotated but not mirrored. there is now an upper route than runs between all three rooms to create more interesting connectivity. some tweaks have also been made to the RA and MH rooms, mainly the positions of the bouncers.

i have never made such huge changes to a map after the layout was closed, but i am a lot happier with how it is playing now. it might feel a little "weird" still. it is definitely a bit clunkier than my last map, but i guess i was in a weird mood while making it. as i make more and more maps, it becomes harder and harder to come up with anything original, so i am just glad i have something that i don't think is ripping anyone else off too badly.

i definitely think one area i have improved over my last map is the item vulnerability. the battles over the RA and MH feel great. i actually haven't found that the MH trap is OP because the player picking it up is out of sight and can gain a little speed before he comes out again. it's definitely a huge trap, but i don't think it's necessarily instant death if you get caught in there.

what i have learned about the most from making this map is directionality. the ability to enter rooms from very different angles not only helps the gameplay in each room but also has a big effect on the overall connectivity of the map.

the download link is updated and i took a new top-down screenshot (with spawn points!). if you guys have any time take a look and let me know if you like the new version better or worse.

again, i don't know when i'll have time to detail this map. my living situation is going to be transient for a while and i probably won't even have a desk most of the time. but i am sure at some point this year i will have a week or two to do a quick pass with sock's medieval texture set. don't expect anything as detailed as my last map though :)

thanks!
pat

p.s. i'm sure this is a long shot but if anyone lurking out there is interested in just doing environments i might be willing to turn this into a collaboration. i am less and less interested in the environmental art these days. sometimes i wish i could just make layouts and hand them over to someone else who wants to finish the them.

p.p.s. here's a before/after showing what i did in case you can't remember how the map was:

BEFORE

AFTER
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 06-29-2017 12:45 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


okay, guys. last update.

the biggest thing here is there are now two jumps up to the RA, one from either side.

i also moved the regen up to the high corridor in FFA mode and tweaked the MH room geo slightly.

i think this map is good enough to finish, i'm just not sure when that will happen yet. i am probably gonna disappear into the ether for a while. if anyone has any more comments i will still be lurking around on occasion.

thanks for the help.
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Fjoggs
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PostPosted: 06-29-2017 02:08 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


My brain is really struggling to reset after you swapped the rooms about. :D

I ran around a bit, but didn't really have much to think of. Any changes I could see would involve changing a lot of stuff, and I don't think it's worth it really. I liked the changes you did, and think it could play out nicely.


Maybe you'll finish it some day. See you around! :D

EDIT: Oh and btw, your map (Trespass) was added to the Kenya Cup tournament!
http://esreality.com/post/2878140/cpma-kenya-cup-2017/
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v1l3
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PostPosted: 07-01-2017 09:40 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


That's cause Trespass is a badass map map ;) I love your maps btw, Pat. I play them to death.
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Pat Howard
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PostPosted: 07-02-2017 01:17 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Thanks!
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Gargamel9000
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PostPosted: 07-15-2017 05:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Looks good, nice Job -as always!
Cant wait to see all the cool deco-ideas... ;)
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Gargamel9000
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PostPosted: 08-17-2017 11:39 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I like the changes in b6!
Theres alot of cool jumps.
I had an idea for that MH-Spot, maybe its worth a try.
That way youre not locked up in the spot after picking up MH.
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Obsessed
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PostPosted: 09-01-2017 12:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hi, Pat! The map is superb and slightly reminds me "Fury" (ztn2dm3)! The only desired thing - more vertical gameplay, but Highline is pure classic and it is hardly worth changing anything. I would have made additional (bot clip) steps to the RA, or, ideally, solid inclined paths, to give bots a chance to take it. I guess, they will not jump there. :)
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