This time it wasn't a school

[YourGrandpa]

I'm exchanging insults with someone who is incredibly biased and has no intention of having a discussion. How about fuck off if you don't like it. You're in no position to judge anyone.

The tag line, "It works in other countries" has been disputed by many and has also been proven ineffective in the actual country of America. America isn't "other countries". We have a different relationship and history with firearms. Never mind the FACT that guns aren't the problem. They are simply a means to an end. Look at London. People are the problem. But some idiots would rather penalize millions of law abiding citizens rather than deal the why/how a few criminals are causing the problem. Furthermore, we have a constitution (unlike other countries) that protects our right.

The other point you're trying to make is a matter of opinion. I agree there should be better regulation, but with no additional restriction on firearms. We will certainly save more lives keeping ALL guns out of the wrong people's hands instead of banning something that is responsible for less than 1% of gun deaths. But I digress. This isn't about saving lives...

[DooMer]

YGP, the US has one of the highest murder rates out of any first world country afaik, including UK. comparing a string of stabbings in a single city is a bit disingenuous when looking at the big picture. Plus it's not only about a flat murder rate, it's about if somebody decides to kill a bunch people, like they do constantly in the US, they would kill far less with a knife than a gun. That's the problem with your arguments, you take something, focus on a single statistic and run with it. You don't bother thinking it all the way through, and about all the other reasons as to why the argument might not make sense. Statistics are fine, but you have to know what they mean and how to use them. Plus who proved that gun control wouldn't work in America and how?

You aren't being judged by your opinion. It's the way you put together your arguments and willfully ignoring of obvious facts. It would take way too much work to actually dissect the things you say because they are built upon logical fallacies, ignoring of counter points, and it's been done a million times before with zero impact.

[YourGrandpa]

I'm not ignoring anything. What FACTS did I disregard? I'm shining a spot light on a VERY specific issue. How stupid it is to push for a ban on AR-15 style rifles. It's you/others who are broadening the conversation to skew the topic of discussion in order to make a point. You bring up murder rates globally to substantiate one point and then dismiss them to support another. Which is it? Do you want to save lives or just groups of lives? Because I can assure you mass shooting represent a small percentage of gun deaths. However, I can also argue someone can/should be able to effectively kill more people is close proximity with two semi-automatic pistols over an AR-15. AR-15s are bulky, more difficult to maneuver in tight areas and harder to conceal. They just happen to be the tool of choice for some mass shooters and the current media blitz. If they went away tomorrow, it's logical to argue it wouldn't change the number of mass shootings or the people killed. That line of thinking is also supported by where America has the most issues with gun violence and the recent uptick in London. Traditional gun control isn't always the answer. Furthermore, banning AR-15 style rifles isn't going to "help". To even suggest it as a viable option to "save lives" is incredibly naive and short sighted. If you are going to address gun problems, you have to start with the people who have them. Licensing, criminal backgrounds and mental health background checks should be put in place to help prevent criminal access to ALL guns. But that's something you'd do to save lives.

BTW, mass shootings with AR-15s aren't happening "constantly" anywhere in the US. People are "constantly" dying to cancer, car accidents and heart disease to name a few.

[Doombrain]

I'm stupid because I have a different opinion...

I have respect for your POV, but you saying this is a fucking joke. You come back at everyone with name calling and belittling if they disagree with you. ffs.

[YourGrandpa]

Look who's complaining.

Like everyone here has been soooo respectful.

It treat people how they've treated me. Simple.

[Transient]

[SOAPboy]

BTW, mass shootings with AR-15s aren't happening "constantly" anywhere in the US. People are "constantly" dying to cancer, car accidents and heart disease to name a few.

Wut?t


FEB. 2018
Parkland, Fla.
17 killed

NOV. 2017
Sutherland Springs, Tex.
26 killed

OCT. 2017
Las Vegas
58 killed

DEC. 2015
San Bernardino, Calif.
14 killed

DEC. 2012
Newtown, Conn.
27 killed

JULY 2012
Aurora, Colo.
12 killed


Thats JUST mass shootings involving AR-15s in googling a SINGLE article. 3 of which were in 4 months.

This isnt even slightly a full list of "mass shootings" or "large scale gun violence" or whatever you want to call it. Pulse shooting, a few church shootings, etc.

You keep focusing on the AR-15 specifically. Its so cute.


Keep coming at us with your facts bud. Its like you watch only fox news or something.

Oh just for shits. Heres a mass shooting wiki for you gramps. GO learn something
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shoo ... ted_States

[YourGrandpa]

154 people die in 5/6 years and we should penalize millions of law abiding citizens under the guise we're going to "save lives".

You see what we have here is another clear example of someone ignoring the context of the conversation to support an irrational position. This is typical of the morons pushing the AR-15 agenda. Hey dumb dumb, google how many people died in 5/6 years to guns in general. Then explain to why AR-15s are the target.

Idiot.

[Captain]

Wonder how gwamps would feel if his kid got shot to pieces.

[Transient]

Way to elevate the conversation.

[SOAPboy]

154 people die in 5/6 years and we should penalize millions of law abiding citizens under the guise we're going to "save lives".

You see what we have here is another clear example of someone ignoring the context of the conversation to support an irrational position. This is typical of the morons pushing the AR-15 agenda. Hey dumb dumb, google how many people died in 5/6 years to guns in general. Then explain to why AR-15s are the target.

Idiot.

I wonder if you're as much of a moron in person as you are here, or is this a giant gimmick?

We have cops who shouldnt have ARs, The fuck is wrong with you thinking its "just fine" for civs to have them?

You do understand AR is a blanket term for about 9000000 styles of rifle right? And you do understand thats not the only gun we're talking about getting rid of right? You understand theres still AKs and all kinds of stuff in the wild right? I have a buddy with a mac 10. He shouldnt have that. Its legal.

You simply don't get it, or are a country bumpkin with no sense, Either way, I really hope your kids never have to go through that shit. Because its clear you've never dealt with any kind of actual gun violence in your life. Either way, I'm done arguing with someone so ignorant and selfish.

Wonder how gwamps would feel if his kid got shot to pieces.

Naw, he'd just wanna arm teachers or something equally stupid.

[Κracus]

I'm exchanging insults with someone who is incredibly biased and has no intention of having a discussion. How about fuck off if you don't like it. You're in no position to judge anyone.

The tag line, "It works in other countries" has been disputed by many and has also been proven ineffective in the actual country of America. America isn't "other countries". We have a different relationship and history with firearms. Never mind the FACT that guns aren't the problem. They are simply a means to an end. Look at London. People are the problem. But some idiots would rather penalize millions of law abiding citizens rather than deal the why/how a few criminals are causing the problem. Furthermore, we have a constitution (unlike other countries) that protects our right.

The other point you're trying to make is a matter of opinion. I agree there should be better regulation, but with no additional restriction on firearms. We will certainly save more lives keeping ALL guns out of the wrong people's hands instead of banning something that is responsible for less than 1% of gun deaths. But I digress. This isn't about saving lives...

I'm absolutely in a position to judge. I haven't been calling you stupid and I have an opinion on the matter. As far as America isn't "Other countries" I honestly disagree. If any country deserves to be compared to the US it's Canada. We border your country, we're heavily influenced by your culture and are basically a mini united states with different laws on gun control. The points your making are rhetorical in nature and not factual in any way. Stricter gun laws in Canada work, that is a fact, not an opinion. Murder rates across the border are insanely higher than Canada's, that is also a fact. You have absolutely no need to carry weapons meant to murder other humans. You just want to because reasons and that's why in the end your government will take them away from you. Your constitution can be changed and it will eventually when you and people like you collectively get your heads out of your asses. Also, you state that it works in other countries has been disputed and proven ineffective but has it really or are you just making that up? Cause I think you're just making that up.

[YourGrandpa]

You do understand AR is a blanket term for about 9000000 styles of rifle right? And you do understand thats not the only gun we're talking about getting rid of right? You understand theres still AKs and all kinds of stuff in the wild right? I have a buddy with a mac 10. He shouldnt have that. Its legal.

You simply don't get it, or are a country bumpkin with no sense, Either way, I really hope your kids never have to go through that shit. Because its clear you've never dealt with any kind of actual gun violence in your life. Either way, I'm done arguing with someone so ignorant and selfish.

Wonder how gwamps would feel if his kid got shot to pieces.

Naw, he'd just wanna arm teachers or something equally stupid.

Pathetic dodge...

Have you not seen the multiple times I've stated "AR-15 style/type rifles"? I'm just not going to type it every single time I reference AR-15 style rifles. And AR is a blanket term for morons. AR is actually the abbreviation of a specific manufacturer and typically references a specific platform of rifle/pistol. AK is also another generic reference to a specific platform. There are also many other rifle platforms that offer similar specs and performance. Unfortunately most gun grabbers have no clue about the firearms they want to ban. All they know is that they look scary and the media told them they are bad.

You still can't/haven't explained why banning AR-15s (see what I did there) is a valid option to "save lives". The only reason you and this other dope Kracus can come up with is that we simply shouldn't have them. We simply shouldn't have lots of things that kill many more people than AR-15s (oops I did it again). What about sports cars and sports bikes. We don't need them. They serve no other purposes than to go really fast and kill people. Should we not ban them? Who really needs to go faster than 80 MPH? While we're at it, let's restrict the speed capacity of all cars to 80 MPH. Unfortunately for sports car/bike enthusiasts we don't have a constitutional right to own them...

Why must I have personal experience with gun violence to understand its impact? That's ridiculous. Bringing something like that up is only done to offset the conversation. It a diversionary tactic to elicit sympathy for an otherwise unfounded argument. You and Kracus want to talk about gun control? I'm for more gun control. AGAIN, I'm for mandatory licencing for EVERY American who wants to own a mag fed pistol/rifle with a fixed capacity of over 10 rounds. I'm for background checks that include access to a national data base that reports if someone is on the no-fly list, on psychotropic drugs, has a felony conviction or has been found mentally unstable. I'm NOT for gun grabbing policies that penalize millions of law abiding citizens for no reason. And you should be done with this discussion, because you have nothing to offer but emotionally charged nonsense based on nothing but your desire take away something that YOU feel is bad (talk about selfish).

[YourGrandpa]

I'm absolutely in a position to judge. I haven't been calling you stupid and I have an opinion on the matter. As far as America isn't "Other countries" I honestly disagree. If any country deserves to be compared to the US it's Canada. We border your country, we're heavily influenced by your culture and are basically a mini united states with different laws on gun control. The points your making are rhetorical in nature and not factual in any way. Stricter gun laws in Canada work, that is a fact, not an opinion. Murder rates across the border are insanely higher than Canada's, that is also a fact. You have absolutely no need to carry weapons meant to murder other humans. You just want to because reasons and that's why in the end your government will take them away from you. Your constitution can be changed and it will eventually when you and people like you collectively get your heads out of your asses. Also, you state that it works in other countries has been disputed and proven ineffective but has it really or are you just making that up? Cause I think you're just making that up.

You are in no position to judge me personally. You don't know me at all. All you know is what you see here. If you're judging a person based on what you read on the internet, then, well...

Canada isn't the United States and the United States isn't like any other country. Guns hold a very different position in our history and our culture. That's not just me "making that up". That idea is shared and supported by many. If you disagree, you disagree. At least you can feel satisfied that you said your piece. Even though you still haven't explained how banning AR-15s would effectively "save lives".

Oh and if you are going to try. Please don't offset the discussion with more open ended comments about other countries, gun control in general or more emotionally charged nonsense about how we just shouldn't have them. Tell me how banning AR-15s that are responsible for less than 1% of gun related deaths would be about saving lives. Tell me how banning AR-15s would be more effective than better regulating the distribution of ALL firearms. Tell me what you really want. Or don't.

[Κracus]

I'm not talking about banning AR-15's. I'm talking about banning all guns that serve no other purpose than killing humans. That includes handguns and any other assault rifle. I know it works to reduce gun violence and deaths because countries that have those laws have less gun violence. It's that simple and arguing otherwise is akin to telling me the sun isn't hot. You can say that if you want, it's not really true.

[YourGrandpa]

Another dodge.

Well just so you know, the current gun control push doesn't fit your mold (nor would it in America). They don't want ALL guns. They want to ban AR-15s and bump stocks under the guise it will make a significant impact on gun deaths. Furthermore, your opinions on how gun control would work in America are just that. You're comparing apples and oranges claiming they are both identical.

[Κracus]

What am I dodging?

As for your comparison comment... I want you to think about that real hard for a minute. The only reason I'm making a comparison is because one exists and it's obviously not in favor of your argument. Do you have an alternate comparison that supports your argument? Because if you don't, then my comparison is really the only one you can use, which makes it valid. You can absolutely compare countries, what else are you going to use as a comparison!? Cars!? WTF?

[YourGrandpa]

You didn't answer any of my questions and I already explained to you why America was different. Your opinions on gun control are way more extreme than anything currently suggested by liberals or conservatives and for good reason. IT WON'T WORK in American. You can disagree all you want. But that doesn't make you right. If you need additional explanations to understand why, go do some research.

[Κracus]

I re-read and I still don't know what question it is you're posing. My apologies for asking you to repeat whatever it is you think I'm dodging but I'll be happy to answer it.

The facts surrounding gun control laws in other countries aren't my opinion, they're facts and the stats don't lie. So please stop with the "my opinion" crap. Also, you're not making an argument about how it doesn't apply to the US, you're just stating it doesn't without any facts or data to back that up. That is an opinion and simply stating that doesn't negate the facts that gun control works in other countries.

If I may make an analogy here, the burden of proof really lies on you as we have evidence to support otherwise. It's a lot like religious folks claiming it's an atheists responsibility to prove god doesn't exist while showing no evidence god does exist. It simply doesn't work that way. You tell me to go do research but really it's you that needs to look at examples of how things work elsewhere. I'm not trying to make fun of you here, I'm just saying, you really need to stop and objectively look at your argument because it's really a case of burying your head in the sand.

[YourGrandpa]

I re-read and I still don't know what question it is you're posing. My apologies for asking you to repeat whatever it is you think I'm dodging but I'll be happy to answer it.

The facts surrounding gun control laws in other countries aren't my opinion, they're facts and the stats don't lie. So please stop with the "my opinion" crap. Also, you're not making an argument about how it doesn't apply to the US, you're just stating it doesn't without any facts or data to back that up. That is an opinion and simply stating that doesn't negate the facts that gun control works in other countries.

If I may make an analogy here, the burden of proof really lies on you as we have evidence to support otherwise. It's a lot like religious folks claiming it's an atheists responsibility to prove god doesn't exist while showing no evidence god does exist. It simply doesn't work that way. You tell me to go do research but really it's you that needs to look at examples of how things work elsewhere. I'm not trying to make fun of you here, I'm just saying, you really need to stop and objectively look at your argument because it's really a case of burying your head in the sand.

Questions...
Tell me how banning AR-15s that are responsible for less than 1% of gun related deaths would be about saving lives. Tell me how banning AR-15s would be more effective than better regulating the distribution of ALL firearms. Tell me what you really want. Or don't.

It is YOUR opinion that gun control would work in America. Your reasoning is that it works in other countries while refusing to acknowledge America's differences. I've already loosely explained those differences. Those differences are also why traditional gun control (as you are suggesting) will not work in America. Firstly because the majority of Americans don't want it. That is obvious by how the current legislators are pursuing more gun control laws. They aren't asking to ban ALL guns (because they know that'll never fly). They aren't asking to ban any type of pistol or every type of rifle. They are asking to ban AR-15 style rifles and they are trying to sell the AR ban by suggesting it will have a significant impact on gun deaths. However, anyone with an ounce of brain power knows this is a gun-grab designed to chip away at what is currently legal. Secondly there are currently many cases in America where stricter gun control has not reduced crime or gun deaths. There are also other examples of places with the least amount of gun control having the least amount of crime or gun violence. Thirdly America has one of the highest civilian concentrations of firearms in the world. Too many to ever effectively collect and the only people who are going to turn them in are the people that would never be a problem.

Listen, I get it. You disagree. No need to answer my questions. I can see you want to ban everything that isn't "needed" for hunting. But that currently is not an option in America, so further discussion is pointless.

[Κracus]

Yeah you're correct that they're basically trying to babystep their way to actual gun control by targeting ar-15's and that style of weapon. You want proof it's actually going to make a difference but in America's case you just need to try it first and see the results. If it's a positive change I'd expect more types of weapons to be taken off the streets which is likely the end goal here.

That said, the US isn't special. You're not some special snowflake that'll devolve into chaos if they take your guns. Telling me the US is different and needs guns because of that difference is absolute horseshit. The U.S. is a country like any other country. The only thing special is the orange turd running it. I mean that in the worst possible way.

[SOAPboy]

Yeah you're correct that they're basically trying to babystep their way to actual gun control by targeting ar-15's and that style of weapon. You want proof it's actually going to make a difference but in America's case you just need to try it first and see the results. If it's a positive change I'd expect more types of weapons to be taken off the streets which is likely the end goal here.

That said, the US isn't special. You're not some special snowflake that'll devolve into chaos if they take your guns. Telling me the US is different and needs guns because of that difference is absolute horseshit. The U.S. is a country like any other country. The only thing special is the orange turd running it. I mean that in the worst possible way.

It has positive results last time they did the ban. Other countries have proven bans work. Americans are just too stupid to give up the toys.

[YourGrandpa]

I always chuckle when some dipshit calls Americans stupid.

I guess zero to world leading super power in 200 years escapes them.

Americans generally feel different about guns. Sure, in some other fantasy land where Americans were stripped of their gun rights 150 years ago, didn't fight a civil war, didn't endure the wild wild west or have to fight in two other world wars. Maybe, just maybe we'd be willing to put down our arms and trust that someone else will protect us. But we've always had to protect ourselves and others. So we're not like every other country. We never have been and likely never will be. Why's that so hard to understand?

[Transient]

It has positive results last time they did the ban.

Not really, but the law also had a bunch of loopholes in it. A study in 2013 showed that it didn't reduce gun crimes.
http://www.uiw.edu/library/documents/re ... merica.pdf

[SOAPboy]

It has positive results last time they did the ban.

Not really, but the law also had a bunch of loopholes in it. A study in 2013 showed that it didn't reduce gun crimes.
http://www.uiw.edu/library/documents/re ... merica.pdf

Yeah if you go through all the articles it ranges something like 5% or whatever and in any study that has anything higher stated stats (sales/etc) its not conclusive enough

Its still positive results, Just sadly not the ones we would hope for, and like you said, there was tons of loop holes. Its sad really.

Koper or whatever, did state that it may have been effective (assuming it had been renewed) for stopping the future shootings though, Thats kinda the point. Shame that it was such a shitty ban.