What the hell?

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tnf
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What the hell?

Post by tnf »

So a friend of mine is due to have a baby boy in a couple days, and she wanted me to do some research for her on circumcision - specifically she asked (dunno why) about reversing them. I had never heard of it, but did some googling (by the way, googling for anything with the term foreskin circumcision in it will give you some interesting and painful results).


"The
DILE INSERT
Foreskin Restoration System"

http://members.aol.com/dileinsert/page/start00.html

And...there's something called the 'tugahoy' system for foreskin restoration as well...wtf?
(won't post that link here...and I really don't want to re-visit that...but google it for a painful picture involving a device and two gallons of milk)

I've never, ever heard of anything like this before.

Casedogg, have at it. ;)
Massive Quasars
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Post by Massive Quasars »

Ask Julios.
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Canidae
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Post by Canidae »

I'd tell her not to do it
Let the kid decide when they are old enough to care.
I wonder if it's was a girl if she would concidering a female circumcision?
Last edited by Canidae on Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
Tormentius
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Post by Tormentius »

I looked up a lot of info when my son was born on this and we chose not to put him through it. IMO it is an unnecessary mutilation. Not only that but they have found it eliminates a large amount of nerves and, as such, sensation which he might not appreciate too much when he gets to be an adult. In the end we decided not to make that decision for him.
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FragaGeddon
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Post by FragaGeddon »

They say that you experience more pleasure while having sex if you have your foreskin.
Also I heard it's pretty painful to have it removed when you are older.
Also I believe you have to keep your cock on ice because if you get hard it'll hurt like a bitch.
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Kills On Site
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Post by Kills On Site »

Yea, the decision was not mine, but if it was I would not make it now, way too painful I'd believe. I am circumsized, but I really don't mind that much as I have no problems with pleasure.

Also those foreskin restoration things I believe do not return the nerve endings, so what is the point?
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bob1234
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Post by bob1234 »

Aesthetics
busetibi
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Post by busetibi »

if she goes ahead with it, she should be jailed for child abuse.
its a barbaric practice
tnf
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Post by tnf »

I disagree that it is completely barbaric or jailable. I'll wait to hear what Saturn or Geebs think about the medical reasons behind the practice.
r3t
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Post by r3t »

When its being done for religious reasons, I agree it's barbaric. When it's done for hygienic reasons, people are just misinformed. Either way, I'm opposed to it (being done to young children or babies), since it's a decision someone should make for themselves.
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Transient
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Post by Transient »

Watch the Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode on circumcision before giving any input to your friend. While obviously biased, it's still food for thought.
[quote="YourGrandpa"]I'm satisfied with voicing my opinion and moving on.[/quote]
S@M
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Post by S@M »

weird that the action is only barbaric if done for religious reasons - stands to reason (I hope) that even if it were religious that they'd use anaesthesia, etc. There are no medical grounds for circumcision as a generalisation, might be some individuals have really tight foreskins which require surgery tho - ie if it cant retract ur in the shit
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Brian Slade
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Post by Brian Slade »

I'VE GOT A FORE-SKIN NA-NA-NA-NA-NAA-NA!
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seremtan
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Post by seremtan »

i've got a five-skin
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

I just made a long ass post on metafilter about male circumcision:

http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/43309#975554 (I'm spacediver there)

starts off with:
posted this in the other circ thread, but unfortunately I posted way late.

It's important to understand the medical history behind male circumcision.

a great account can be found here (from Journal of Social History):

http://www.cirp.org/library/history/gollaher/
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

Kills On Site wrote:Also those foreskin restoration things I believe do not return the nerve endings, so what is the point?
Few reasons.

As many circumcised males will tell you, wearing boxers can be very uncomfortable when walking sometimes (specially after a night of sex). Having protection around the glans removes this discomfort.

Secondly, some claim that some sensitivity is restored to the penis, as well as the natural glossy shine.

Thirdly, the mechanical functions of the foreskin (the internal sliding mechanism) is restored. This has a few sexual advantages.
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

Tormentius wrote:I looked up a lot of info when my son was born on this and we chose not to put him through it. IMO it is an unnecessary mutilation. Not only that but they have found it eliminates a large amount of nerves and, as such, sensation which he might not appreciate too much when he gets to be an adult. In the end we decided not to make that decision for him.
i'm curious - are you yourself circumcised? If so, then that is a remarkable decision you and your wife made.

The prime predictor of whether a baby male will be circumcised is the circumcision status of the father.
Grudge
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Post by Grudge »

r3t wrote:When its being done for religious reasons, I agree it's barbaric. When it's done for hygienic reasons, people are just misinformed. Either way, I'm opposed to it (being done to young children or babies), since it's a decision someone should make for themselves.
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

re medical prophylaxis - there is clinical evidence that circumcision protects to a degree against HIV infection. It also protects (probably to a significant degree) against penile cancer.

Penile cancer, however, is extremely rare disease primarily found in old men, and usually arises only when there is horrendously poor hygeine.

Circumcising as a means to protect against cancer is ludicrous.

As for HIV, again - a ludicrous reason to mutilate a child. It does not immunize (although a lot of scientists are framing it as such), and even the clinical studies likely suffer confounds (it is very hard to have a completely randomized control study when it comes to radical and permanent alterations - you need volunteers, and those who volunteer to be circumcised may systematically differ, in some ways, from those who don't).

Margaret Sommervile ( http://www.law.mcgill.ca/faculty/bio_di ... Print_List ) - a world renowned figure in medical ethics, has written a book called "The Ethical Canary"

Here are some excerpts:

http://www.intact.ca/canary.htm
If someone asked you what our reactions to human cloning could teach us about the ethics of infant male circumcision, you might think it was a trick question. I was working on speeches on both these topics at more or less the same time and, with some surprise, recognized there was at least one important lesson that cloning would provide in relation to circumcision. When they first hear of human cloning, most people's reaction is "Yuck!" But as familiarity increases, and dread decreases, they move from this rejection and horror to neutrality to acceptance, usually with safeguards, and finally even to positive approval. In contrast, many people's view of infant male circumcision has gone in the opposite direction: from positive approval to rejection and sometimes horror. This is certainly true of my attitude.
...
As I have noted elsewhere, good ethics depend on good facts, and good law depends on good ethics. The medical facts about infant male circumcision have changed as a result of medical research. We now know that infant male circumcision is harmful in itself and has harmful consequences. Circumcision removes healthy, functioning, erogenous tissue that serves important protective, sensory and sexual purposes. The surgery also involves risks of further damage-ranging from minor to serious damage to the penis or even its loss or death. In one recent American case a baby died from the general anesthetic he was given in order to deal with the complications that had resulted from his circumcision. Some physicians who continue to support routine-that is, non-therapeutic-circumcision argue that its potential medical benefits-which research shows do exist-justify carrying it out on infants. But these potential benefits do not outweigh its harms when the procedure is not medically necessary, which in the vast majority of cases it is not. Moreover, when we look to the nature of the medical benefits cited as a justification for infant circumcision, such as a reduced rate of urinary infections, we can see that medical problems can be avoided or, if they occur, treated in far less traumatic and invasive ways than circumcision.

The most recent claim of a medical benefit from circumcision is a reduction in the risk of contracting HIV infection or other sexually transmitted diseases. The research on which this claim is based is being challenged, but even if it is correct, it would not justify circumcising infant boys. Even assuming that circumcision gave men additional protection from becoming infected with HIV, baby boys do not immediately need such protection and can choose for themselves, at a later stage, if they want it. To carry out circumcision for such a future health protection reason (assuming for the moment that circumcision is protective) would be analogous to testing a baby girl for the gene for breast cancer and, if it is present, trying to remove all her immature breast tissue in order to eliminate the risk of her developing breast cancer as an adult woman. I believe that most of us would be shocked at undertaking such a procedure on a baby girl, but some of us might not have the same reaction to infant male circumcision. Why is this? Quite simply we value breasts-we see it as a serious harm to a woman to lose them-and we do not value foreskins, in fact they are often devalued-spoken of as ugly, unaesthetic and unclean. Yet both are part of the intact human body and both have sexual and other functions. Consequently, to summarize, routine infant male circumcision cannot be ethically and legally justified on the grounds that it is medically required.

A common error made by those who want to justify infant male circumcision on the basis of medical benefits is that they believe that as long as some such benefits are present, circumcision can be justified as therapeutic, in the sense of preventive health care. This is not correct. A medical-benefits or "therapeutic" justification requires that overall the medical benefits should outweigh the risks and harms of the procedure required to obtain them, that this procedure is the only reasonable way to obtain these benefits, and that these benefits are necessary to the well-being of the child. None of these conditions is fulfilled for routine infant male circumcision. If we view a child's foreskin as having a valid function, we are no more justified in amputating it than any other part of the child's body unless the operation is medically required treatment and the least harmful way to provide that treatment
It never occurs to many people to reflect upon the origins and meaning of this practice. It is so fundamental to their cultural consciousness, that by default, it occupies a privileged place of normativity, relatively immune from critical insight.

What is certain, in my opinion, is that if circumcision wasn't around today, it would absolutely never be accepted by society if all this HIV research suddenly came about.
Last edited by [xeno]Julios on Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ryoki
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Post by Ryoki »

I hear in some countries they skip the circumcision altogether and move straight on to castration.
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Eraser
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Post by Eraser »

I don't see how chipping away a piece of skin can suddenly protect you (to a significant degree) against HIV.
Geebs
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Post by Geebs »

tnf wrote:I disagree that it is completely barbaric or jailable. I'll wait to hear what Saturn or Geebs think about the medical reasons behind the practice.
AFAIK there aren't any [/two cents]
[xeno]Julios
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Post by [xeno]Julios »

There are some valid medical indications for male circumcision. The most common one is phimosis.

However, from what I recall, phimosis is a term used for a broad range of different phenomena regarding the foreskin's retractivity. Basically there may be many reasons that a foreskin experiences difficulty retracting, and to various degrees; yet phimosis is the term usually used for all of them.

As such, phimosis is generally misunderstood as a single phenomenon.

To further complicate the issue, is the ignorance that many have regarding the natural retraction of the foreskin. The foreskin is not meant to retract at an early age. It loosens up naturally as the years progress. At birth, the foreskin is connected to the penis in a similar fashion to how the nail is connected to the finger (I think). Trying to retract the foreskin prematurely is dangerous, and leads to damage.

There are also non-invasive procedures to resolve retractivity problems - a recent study noted the effectiveness of steroidal creams (i think high potency cream). There are also minor surgical interventions that can be done in place of a full blown circumcision.

(btw not all circumcisions are equal in style or degree of tissue removal).
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Eraser
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Post by Eraser »

What I'm also wondering about is two arguments people have used:

- circumsision makes the penis more sensitive
- circumsision is more hygenic

I can't believe either of those. First of all, sexual reasons shouldn't be a reason at all at such a young age. Secondly, the head of the penis is a very sensitive part of the body to begin with. If it's constantly scraping against your pants or underware without the protection of the foreskin, I can only imagine it becoming less sensitive, probably after becoming painful at first, although I can't judge about that (Still fully intact myself).

As for hygene, if your glands are dangling around in the open where dirt and dust can easily reach it, I doubt a circumsized penis is cleaner than mine. People can say dirt can get stuck behind the foreskin, maybe, but that same dust is on your penis as well. Probably even more of it.

If you keep up a decent level of hygene, giving the one eyed snake a quick 5 second cleaning job during shower prevents any sort of infection.
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Eraser
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Post by Eraser »

[xeno]Julios wrote:There are some valid medical indications for male circumcision. The most common one is phimosis.

However, from what I recall, phimosis is a term used for a broad range of different phenomena regarding the foreskin's retractivity. Basically there may be many reasons that a foreskin experiences difficulty retracting, and to various degrees; yet phimosis is the term usually used for all of them.
But if that is an argument in favor of circumsision, then why should everyone undergo it if there are so many negative effects of it as well. Shouldn't circumsision be used as a medical treatment for people who suffer from this problem instead of on every baby who have no free will yet? That goes for pretty much every medical reason IMO.
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