Crytek does it again.

[+JuggerNaut+]

on paper it's insane.

[[FTF]Pyro]

Is it just me or am I the only one the istn impressed by this current "standard" that seems to be emerging.


I dont want UBER realsitic faces and enviroments. I want things that feel and move naturally. for example. If they got the lip synching on HL2 and randomised the animation using some sort of algorythmn I would be ore impressed.


Its all very good having detailed enviroments and NPC's but if they turn around and run like they are stickmen with a rotational animation cycle of less than 2 secs...... it kind defeats the point of having good graphics in the first place.

[Mr.Magnetichead]

Babysteps

[[FTF]Pyro]

Babysteps

Baby steps..... Fuck baby steps animation hasnt been improved since........


They still rotate on an axis and have animation hotspots like they did 15 years ago. the only thing that has changed ..... well.... nothing.

[Mr.Magnetichead]

15 years ago? 1990 aye? prior to the release of the super nintendo? Sure mate, sure.

[o'dium]

To be honest, they DID because Doom was released in what 91? And those rotated on the same axis :P sure not hte same animation type, but they still did the same things

I agee TBH with what Pyro said to a certain extent. It would be better if models interacted with a world in better ways. Is it really so hard to make a man walk along and not clip a bump in the road? Why cant he have his foot up on a curb?

[[FTF]Pyro]

15 years ago? 1990 aye? prior to the release of the super nintendo? Sure mate, sure.

(SNES) Release Date: 1993-09-19



Alone in the Dark 1993


excuse me 12 years.

[[FTF]Pyro]

It would be better if models interacted with a world in better ways.

I'm just sick and tired of NPC's Grabbing objects only for the game world illusion to be broken because the fingers dont meet the can (whatever ojbect) or the predetermined animation clips the object or whatever.


Same goes for turn and run anim's too. Since when does a human reach full speed on first step.


also, joint movement and muscle formation is just about non-existent. Fingers dont move independantly and almost ALWAYS clip objects.



Animation and clipping is a sham that hasnt had any decent move forward in (*revised term time) 12 years.

[Foo]

Animation and clipping is a sham that hasnt had any decent move forward in (*revised term time) 12 years.

So what you're saying is... skeletal animation and interpolation were insignificant?

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

[Tormentius]

also, joint movement and muscle formation is just about non-existent. Fingers dont move independantly and almost ALWAYS clip objects.



Animation and clipping is a sham that hasnt had any decent move forward in (*revised term time) 12 years.

Look at how much machine power Doom 3 required and it still didn't meet what it is you're describing. Games have come a long ways but they can still only develop software that current hardware can run.

[[FTF]Pyro]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Holy shit, I'm sorry for expressing an opinion. And I really dont care what fancy names you tag onto animated poly's, at the end of the day, my eyes and brain says its not good enough.



And with regards to skeletal animation, Bollocks. Skeletal animation refers to pre chosen points along an X and Y Axis in relation to a wireframe model. Pure Skeletal Animation (the stuff I want) would refer to muscle rendering and bone manipulation. Oh and I dont see hand, finger, jaw, neck, vertibrae, rib cage, pelvis and feet pounts along your so called "skeletal Animation"



Unless the people you know are stickmen.



thanks for playing.

[Foo]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

Holy shit, I'm sorry for expressing an opinion. And I really dont care what fancy names you tag onto animated poly's, at the end of the day, my eyes and brain says its not good enough.



And with regards to skeletal animation, Bollocks. Skeletal animation refers to pre chosen points along an X and Y Axis in relation to a wireframe model. Pure Skeletal Animation (the stuff I want) would refer to muscle rendering and bone manipulation. Oh and I dont see hand, finger, jaw, neck, vertibrae, rib cage, pelvis and feet pounts along your so called "skeletal Animation"



Unless the people you know are stickmen.



thanks for playing.

Lol... so to strip the ego and peacock crap out of this statment, we get:

I don't really know anything about 3d animation, and I haven't played Half Life 2.

GG. Fucking idiot.

[[FTF]Pyro]

also, joint movement and muscle formation is just about non-existent. Fingers dont move independantly and almost ALWAYS clip objects.



Animation and clipping is a sham that hasnt had any decent move forward in (*revised term time) 12 years.

Look at how much machine power Doom 3 required and it still didn't meet what it is you're describing. Games have come a long ways but they can still only develop software that current hardware can run.

I would assume much of the power of doom 3 you are refering too lay in the graphics department. Afterall isnt it Ironic that you can pick up an Athlon 64 (fastest one) and mobo for less than the price of a "good" graphics card.



And that is my point. Graphics has reached a point where its inconsequencial to the gaming enviroment in terms of believability. Farcry, doom 3 Half-life 2..... all great looking games but none of the NPC Feel Alive and none of the enviroments do either. Time to make a shift in what is expected. When I fire up a game I want it to absorb me. FF7 did so by providing characters that I could relate to in an enviroment that didnt make me question the falability of the play.


If you set out to make something that plays realistically you will ultimately fail. Not by graphics or design but by the fact that peoples brains will look for signs of weakness in the world in which you will have created. The first time I saw some NPC running into a wall or picking up a coke can and his hand clipping the object or any other falability the game isnt ruined but my "belief" in the world terminates.

[[FTF]Pyro]

.

Lol... so to strip the ego and peacock crap out of this statment, we get:



at the end of the day, my eyes and brain says its not good enough.


.[/quote]

You can burgeon me with sanctimonious crap about how l337 you are with 3d animation, graphics technology and what have you. You might have more knowledge than me with regards to ever subject on or under the sun, but, I think the red statement pretty much makes my defence..... unless of course you would like to tell me what I feel as well as know ?



thanks for playing.

[Foo]

Hell no, by all means feel whatever you want. But trying to back it up by stating there haven't been any major improvements in game animation for 12 years makes you a fucking fool.

My eyes and my brain 'say' that.

[[FTF]Pyro]

Hell no, by all means feel whatever you want. But trying to back it up by stating there haven't been any major improvements in game animation for 12 years makes you a fucking fool.

My eyes and my brain 'say' that.

And these changes arent significant enough for me to believe that any of the characters generated under ANY enviroment, which portrays a realistic setting (IE another world filled with huminoids or equivalents),
is good enough. And harking back to the days of Alone in the Dark was to emphasise that not much has changed since that game. We STILL have Run, Stop, Turn, Run going on even today. Skeletally animated (In your terms, not by my definition 'where bones are manipulated through muscle and physics') or not its just not good enough. I threw a can at an NPC the other day in HL2, I might add, for about 10 minutes and it did nothing. NOTHING. No bruise, no getting up and punching me. It just kept repeating the same statement which might as well have been

"
'You know you are wasting your time doing this, as I will do nothing and say nothing about the current situation we are in, so you better hurry up and get from point A=---------------=> B so that the narative can continue.
"

Granted very little to do with animation but if you actually understood what I was meaning in the larger scheme of things there is no way that you can deny that Game engines no matter how sophisticated they are at the moment in terms of physics and graphics and sound and what have you, they just cant cope with ANY type of real world setting that includes "characters'


Animation is just one of the flaws which leads to an un-believable world and is one of the more important ones. If things look like shit and feel like shit it must be shit.

[LXS_work]

Rofflecopters.

Its Odium 2, the revenge.

Gameplay > all.

Graphics are nice, but the technical capabilities of games are limited by hardware.

Oh, and I.K. ftw?

[[FTF]Pyro]

Rofflecopters.

Its Odium 2, the revenge.

Gameplay > all.

Graphics are nice, but the technical capabilities of games are limited by hardware.

Oh, and I.K. ftw?

I'd just like to see what would happen if they put as much time and effort into building worlds and believability as they did into style and graphics.

[Foo]

Hell no, by all means feel whatever you want. But trying to back it up by stating there haven't been any major improvements in game animation for 12 years makes you a fucking fool.

My eyes and my brain 'say' that.

And these changes arent significant enough for me to believe that any of the characters generated under ANY enviroment, which portrays a realistic setting (IE another world filled with huminoids or equivalents),
is good enough. And harking back to the days of Alone in the Dark was to emphasise that not much has changed since that game. We STILL have Run, Stop, Turn, Run going on even today. Skeletally animated (In your terms, not by my definition 'where bones are manipulated through muscle and physics') or not its just not good enough. I threw a can at an NPC the other day in HL2, I might add, for about 10 minutes and it did nothing. NOTHING. No bruise, no getting up and punching me. It just kept repeating the same statement which might as well have been

"
'You know you are wasting your time doing this, as I will do nothing and say nothing about the current situation we are in, so you better hurry up and get from point A=---------------=> B so that the narative can continue.
"

Granted very little to do with animation but if you actually understood what I was meaning in the larger scheme of things there is no way that you can deny that Game engines no matter how sophisticated they are at the moment in terms of physics and graphics and sound and what have you, they just cant cope with ANY type of real world setting that includes "characters'


Animation is just one of the flaws which leads to an un-believable world and is one of the more important ones. If things look like shit and feel like shit it must be shit.

Okay. I'm starting to grasp what you're saying. I think when you say animation what you really mean are physics.

Your example on 'getting up and punching you' is AI.

Your point about bruising is a good one but again you're talking about the physics here, not the animation.

Anyway I've made that point now.

On the subject of Physics not advancing, I again disagree. In recent years ragdoll physics (animation if you like) have come into mainstream use and they represent a shift of priority onto physics and away from graphics. Not entirely, but significantly.

Around the corner we have the first PPU coming onto the market, which it seems will be supported by some next gen games, notably UT2007 is being hinted at supporting it.

The ideas you talk about, bruising, individual fingers interacting in real-time with the surface of a coke can... with a computer those things take leaps and bounds, and comparitavely computer science is just learning to walk.

It takes an appreciation of how computer graphics really work to understand just why we aren't there yet. It's not laziness or a lack of focus, the things you're proposing are simple ideas but extremely complex to implement. Compare it to asking why we haven't landed on saturn yet, and proposing that rocket scientists are focusing too much on the moon.

[[FTF]Pyro]

Okay. I'm starting to grasp what you're saying. I think when you say animation what you really mean are physics.

Your example on 'getting up and punching you' is AI.

Your point about bruising is a good one but again you're talking about the physics here, not the animation.

Anyway I've made that point now.

On the subject of Physics not advancing, I again disagree. In recent years ragdoll physics (animation if you like) have come into mainstream use and they represent a shift of priority onto physics and away from graphics. Not entirely, but significantly.

Around the corner we have the first PPU coming onto the market, which it seems will be supported by some next gen games, notably UT2007 is being hinted at supporting it.

The ideas you talk about, bruising, individual fingers interacting in real-time with the surface of a coke can... with a computer those things take leaps and bounds, and comparitavely computer science is just learning to walk.

It takes an appreciation of how computer graphics really work to understand just why we aren't there yet. It's not laziness or a lack of focus, the things you're proposing are simple ideas but extremely complex to implement. Compare it to asking why we haven't landed on saturn yet, and proposing that rocket scientists are focusing too much on the moon.

Let me give you a more recent example of what I mean and believe me I know what I mean. I may not be able to entirely express my ideas and opinions with the same fluidity as yourself since my knowledge within the computer field is limited to home schooling and an Honours Degree but we'll give it a shot.


Doom 3. Level where one of the beasts breaks through a wall.


Animation Step one. Non-cycle animation. Not interactive has a pre determined start and stop point regardless of interactions within gaming enviroment.

A--------------->B

Animation step two. Cycled Animation. Interactive in terms of allowing realtime model manipulation and movement using precycled animation steps attached to AI algorythmns.



A-------------->Player/AI controlled (interactive)




Now take Killzone 2 prerendered footage. Every step within that piece has predetermined animation cycles with each one being different. This adds fluidity of movement to characters but also extends game world belivability due to your subconcious or concious not picking up repeated character movement.



What I propose is using existing techniques for animation and applying a random generator



IE


Animation follows pre set steps


1+2+3+4+5 and repeats til next animation cycle begins 6+7+8+9+10


IE 1 - 5 is running towards an object

6-10 is striking an object


apply random generator to animation cycle 1 - 5 and footsteps dont follow same cyclic pattern IE spacing is different, movement of arms is different, head movement varies, clothing ripples in accordance to tri state model (head, torso and legs)


animation 6 - 10 carries same generator allowing for degree at which object is struck to vary inaccordance with angle object is approached. Time taken for movement varies, speed and ferocity with which the object is struck varies.


With regards to physics. I am absolutely positive physics has got better in the last 5 years. I never said it hadnt. that is one thing I thank god for.

[Tormentius]

And that is my point. Graphics has reached a point where its inconsequencial to the gaming enviroment in terms of believability. Farcry, doom 3 Half-life 2..... all great looking games but none of the NPC Feel Alive and none of the enviroments do either. Time to make a shift in what is expected. When I fire up a game I want it to absorb me. FF7 did so by providing characters that I could relate to in an enviroment that didnt make me question the falability of the play.


If you set out to make something that plays realistically you will ultimately fail. Not by graphics or design but by the fact that peoples brains will look for signs of weakness in the world in which you will have created. The first time I saw some NPC running into a wall or picking up a coke can and his hand clipping the object or any other falability the game isnt ruined but my "belief" in the world terminates.

Yeah, just like you said, game animation hasn't really changed at all in 15 years:

[reefsurfer]

well.. i must say the games have changed alot for the past 10 years... im not so much for how the characters handles, i.e lip sync, skeleton physics.. im more ofr how realistic the world in a game can be, and on that point we HAVE come a LONG way.

Night to daytime cycles.
Rag doll physics.
Real time shadow and lightning.
Weather effects like rain and snow.
Breakable environments.
Objects with physics.

And much more.. that is what i like in games like HL2 and upcoming F.E.A.R

No other game have made the world you play in feel REAL like HL2 have.