The ethics of converting levels from other games

[Foo]

I'm stewing on this subject because I'm on the verge of converting some levels from one game to another.

This issue has come up many times in the past, and it would be good to have a reasonable discussion on the subject.

The common arguments against converting levels that I know of are:
* If you want to play that level you should play the original game.
* Without the original author's permission you're stealing their work.
* Levels that work well in one game will not work as well in another

Here's my take on it. I'll reference specifically Quake 1 to Quake 3 conversion since that's what I'm concerned with:

* If you want to play that level you should play the original game. - For a start, this point contradicts the third argument (Levels that work well in one game will not work as well in another), because it ignores the fact that games are inherently distinct from one another. The drive to play a level from one game in a different game comes from the desire to see what the level would be like within the constraints of the new game. I think this point is the simplest of the 3 to counter, so I'll leave it there unless someone can expand on the point.

* Without the original author's permission you're stealing their work. - I think I can agree with this although there are a lot of conditions. For example, the original author might not be available to contact (I've tried to contact many mappers over the years only to find the information in their readme file is outdated and they are unreachable). Second, to what extent can conversion be considered stealing? If one claims the work as their own without crediting the original author, then that's fairly clear cut. But if someone credits the original author fully in the release, and appends their own name to the level clearly marked as the convertor and not the creator... then even without the original author's permission I personally can't see the problem on a moral level.

* Levels that work well in one game will not work as well in another - Again, there are conditions here. The converter may have worked on the level to adjust it to the game at hand (and this raises some more questions about how we define a conversion, remake, tribute or derivative), and there are examples of converted levels which worked equally well or even better in the game it was converted for (ztn3tourney1 for Quake 3 is a good example. It was originally a Quake 1 level and was almost identical in both forms).

Have at it

[Fjoggs]

* If you want to play that level you should play the original game.

Chances that spoken game is most likely dead by the time a remake is considered, is fairly high, and therefore the opportunity to play it deacreases.
Also, this isn't IMO a major point in the "no converting" area, because it's more towards the "it's not your work".

* Without the original author's permission you're stealing their work.

Yes, you are. He created it, and if you take credit for something you haven't done, I'd call that stealing. But, if you do go on, make sure to give _proper_ credit.
Swelt and Hubster did it nicely by calling it remixes.
cpm3a - Used and abused by Jube.
Remix by Swelt.
aerowalk by preacher
Remix by Hubster etc.

If the author isn't anywhere to be found, it drops onto a different moral question, and I'd say it's ok to convert/remake (as long as you give the credit where it's due).

* Levels that work well in one game will not work as well in another

Says who? I'd agree if we'r talking in lines of a Warcraft2 map to Quake3, but most FPS games that shares the same principles of gamestyle and strategy can work with each other.
Most FPS games these days are built on the same principles. Both UT2, UT2k3 and 2k4 had a q3dm6-pro remake, and they worked very well.
Same goes for ztn3tourney1 and aerowalk. (in q2, q3).
The bad place didn't really work in q3 imo, but that's a different story. Not every single map out there work on every game.

(Everytime I discuss in english, and try to prove points, I realise how bad I am at it. )

Wanna share what map we're talking about here?

[obsidian]

Oooo... hot topic.

From the way I see it, it's not wrong to convert levels from other games, but there is a right way of doing it and a wrong way.

The problem that I see is that the converter will not credit the original work and blatently call it their own. It doesn't take long for people to notice the plagerism and slap the converter into submission. In general, this kind of thing doesn't happen very often since most people have more sense than that.

* If you want to play that level you should play the original game.
I totally agree with you here. Different games have different elements that makes the gameplay unique. Under that argument, if you want to play an FPS game, we should all play Wolfenstein 3D instead of anything new.

* Without the original author's permission you're stealing their work.
This is a touchy subject. In general, respect the readme requirements of the author. If in the case where the author requires contact before use, but you are definitely unable to find the author, I would include full credit to the original author in the readme. I would probably also include the original readme as well as links to the original map download. If copying stuff from a commercial game and you are unable to receive a reply from the authors, do *not* use anything from that game.

* Levels that work well in one game will not work as well in another
I think that this is because a large number of converted maps are built by beginner mappers who do a straight port from one game to the other. Having something to model after is often easier to start with, but due to a lack of experience, they don't consider the gameplay or visual challenges that are required.

Because of different elements in different games, these changes will affect the gameplay of the map. Sometimes for better or for worse. Depending on the skill of the mapper, he may be able to compensate and make the required alterations.

The other problem here is repetition. Sometimes, when too much of the map is similar to the original, there isn't anything new to the converted map. So even though it's in a different game, it looks and feels like the original, in which case you are back to argument 1. Again, depending on the skill of the mapper, he may be able to eliminate this problem by mixing things up a little.

My $0.02

[Foo]

Wanna share what map we're talking about here?

Probably talking about a pack rather than one specifically.

I'm looking at Quake 1 levels which haven't been sucessfully ported to Q3.

Such as:
Dapak1-12
Punish
Ultrav

[Fjoggs]

Was planning to do a Skull remake myself, but I never played enough Q1 to be comfortable with doing a succesful port.

[hemostick]

aerowalk by preacher

OT, but preacher was asking for feedback on his long unfinished qw map waterwalk last week on esreality and besmella quake

[wviperw]

If the author can not be contacted, I really don't think one should do a remake/remix without their permission. The default choice when the author is not available should be to NOT make the remake, IMO. It's like if an architect made a building (or an artist made a painting) and then disappeared off the face of the planet and then someone comes along and creates almost the exact same thing in a different location and even calls it by the same name. I think most would consider this poor taste.

A pertinent example is Hubster's remake of Preacher's Aerowalk. Hubster couldn't contact Preacher so he went on ahead and made the level. Preacher found out and wasn't happy. Luckily all has been resolved now. Of course, none of this is stopping anybody from simply doing a "rethink" rather than a remake which, IMO, is infinitely better anyway.

---
Definitions:
remake - almost exact replica/port of a level and given the same name
remix - still obvious that it is copying an existing level, although now some liberties are taken and the name is maybe changed a bit
rethink - Simply uses the original level as inspiration. Does not bear any micro-level detail that could be traced back to the original. For example, the only thing that might carry through is "dual-atrium, YA in each atrium, MH in deadend in middle".

[reptile]

You know that game makers are working with total stress and they dont have the best mappers everywhere and also won't have the time to control the thousands of fans if they don't steal
anything from the game they are making.
And if a game is a good time old like Q3 so I'm pretty sure you can take one of the maps and make a remake just give another name maybe another weapon placeement and let it know them via email.
So i'm pretty sure they wont write you back in 40 years.
Not sure what is about newer games but games with 5 years of existsing , I'm sure you can do as long as you give credits.
I want to make a q3dm7 remake for quake 4 because of it's gameplay.
Anyhow..I would take the inspiration of making remakse instead for making some new stuff the energy you use there might be come cooler for something new i guess that.
Thanks and sorry for my bullshit english language, my german isn't better but it's an intressting topic.
:icon25:

[Kat]

...The other problem here is repetition...

Slightly different take on this... repetition from the point of view of how many people make versions of the same map.!? I haven't got enough fingers to count the number of times people have converted Q and Q2 maps to D3, I find that rather boring tbh. This does bring up a side issue of 'originality' but obviously the purpose of a remake/retask isn't in of itself to be 'original' or create anything specifically 'new'.

Why not remake 'based on', 'influenced by' rather than directly clone the original source map?

[hemostick]

Not to mention most of those so-called remakes are often straight bsp2map-ports. I still remember doom3's "dm4 remake" which was completely enclosed in a box because otherwise it'd leak

[TossSalad]

To me, remaking a level is no different than when a band covers another band's song. What the problem? It's just a different interpretation on something. It's fun!! Now if you wanted to put another band's song on a CD and sell it, then you should probably want to follow correct procedure in obtaining permission.

My two favorite solo songwriters, Atom & His Package and The Mountain Goats both cover many famous songs. Atom recorded a Madonna song among other big names. The Mountain Goats have done songs by names as big as Radiohead. Neither one obtained permission for any of their remakes. It's not that big of a deal. Madonna is not going to come storming in to Philadelphia to sue Atom. She, just like you all, probably isn't aware he even exists.

Not to discourage anyone here, but I don't think anyone's "remakes" on this forum are going to make enough money to concern the original authors. Heck, if someone remade one of my maps, I'd be beyond flattered. Nobody should feel the least bit bad about remaking another map, as long as they aren't doing a direct bsp2map creation. That would be like stealing someone else's song for your CD and not even re-recording it.

I'm currently working on a remake and another that is inspired by a series. I feel no ethical problems with either. I will certainly document credit to the original authors as anyone with a shred of integrity would do. Call me cooky, but I don't think American Magee will ever know about my level. Furthermore, he'd probably feel a lot more honored than he would feel cheated. I'm also not going to hunt him down for permission. I am sure he is busy and could give a rats rectum if some dork in Tennessee is remaking his level.

In recap: unless you're selling your level, you shouldn't feel obligated to contact the author. It would be a nice gesture to do so, but let's not have delusions of grandeur.

[obsidian]

Seems to me as if this discussion is splitting up more and more into two different topics.

* Whether it's possible to remake a map and have it be successful.
* Whether or not remaking a map without the author's permission is ethical.

When posting, keep in mind that we shouldn't be mixing the two subjects because some may be using the first to unintentionally justify or rationalize the second.

[Magnus]

* If you want to play that level you should play the original game.

I don't think that is just the way it is. There may be a level that you really enjoy in a game but you just don't like the way the player controlls work because not all the games out there are as configureable as the Quake games or you may not like the weapons available.
So what do you do? You map an identical map for a game that you do like the controlls and or weapons.

* Without the original author's permission you're stealing their work.

OK, first off in most cases if you have a map that was done by another mapper and you like it then you really woulden't want to change it.
If you would like to make some minor changes like weapon placement or adjusting the target position for a jump pad or accelerator pad then do your best to follow the readme first and formost.
If the readme says to feel free to make changes then do so, but include in your readme that the map was origonally made by who ever made it and then list the changes that were made by you.
If the readme says to ask before making changes then the mapper should make a reasonable effort to be available to make responces to requests. If you are just not able to make contact then I say it is your call. If you do decide to make changes then explain in your readme the times and dates that you attempted to make contact and give credit to the origonal mapper and you may include the origonal readme as well.
If the readme says simply do not make any changes then just don't.
You can although make a simmilar map of your own and make the changes you wanted to make and just give it some of your own personal touches. Also if you feel kind enough to do so you may want to explain in your readme that the map was inspired by the map that you wanted to make changes to.

Second, if it is a map from a game that is part of a series and you liked a map from an earlier episode like wanting to redo a Q1 map in Q3 then there is simply nothing wrong with that. It is a map from a game that you purchased and you also purchased the sequel to that game as well so if you would like to see the map you liked rendered in the more advanced engine from the sequel then you are not taking anything from anyone.

Also if you really feel like being an honerable mapper you may want to somehow give credit to the origonal mapper by including the origonal mapper and the mapname into your map name.
Perhaps something like
"Yourname's tribute to mapname by mapper"
(i.e. Magnus' tribute to SpaceMap or Magnus' tribute to Tim Willits)

* Levels that work well in one game will not work as well in another

This is the easy one. True,.....but. One example would be in one game the physics may make a jump up to a ledge possible yet in the other game's physics that high of a flat out jump may not be possible, but if you are determined you can adjust the hight of the ledge as well as some of the surrounding objects so that the jump is now possible yet the ledge compaired to it's surroundings still appears to be the same as it was in the origonal game.

[ppp]

I understand the part about contacting the individual that made the original to give credit but didn't he make the map for his employer?

So therefore the owner of that map must be the company he worked for?

Wouldn't you need to obtain permission from the company rather than the person?

[Foo]

...assuming the level being remade was a commercial one.

In this case, it is not.

[StormShadow]

Madonna is not going to come storming in to Philadelphia to sue Atom.

But she could... especially if they are making money off of her intellectual property.

Levels that work well in one game will not work as well in another

I think this is pretty irrelevant, as 50% of the original maps made for a game dont play very well in that game I dont think this is a valid reason not to do a remake.

Without the original author's permission you're stealing their work.

Yes. You are a dirty stinking theif. Even if you give proper credit.

I certainly wouldnt remake someone elses map without their permission, and I think its in poor taste to do so.

Reasons not to remake a map:
a) you dont have permission, and are stealing someone elses work
b) your a shitty mapper, and will make someone elses level look like ass
c) the map has been remade 5x and there are already too many 'remixes' and other versions of the map out there to warrant another.

I certainly wouldnt remake someone elses map without their permission, and I think its in poor taste to do so.

[TossSalad]

Madonna is not going to come storming in to Philadelphia to sue Atom.

But she could... especially if they are making money off of her intellectual property.

Yes technically she could.
But, why would she care? Just because she can?
Only a douchebag would do that because:
It's hardly worth her time.

That's the point.
We're all amateurs.
If we were working on a major title, we wouldn't be chatting on this forum.

[StormShadow]

I know for a fact ppl who work for major titles chat in this forum

But your point is taken

[Foo]

Yes. You are a dirty stinking theif. Even if you give proper credit.

I certainly wouldnt remake someone elses map without their permission, and I think its in poor taste to do so.

You can say this but it's meaningless unless you back it up with reasoning. I'm not after straightforwards opinions (becuase they're valueless). Your opinions must surely be based on some underlying rationale?

I dont understand how, if you give proper credit and do not profit from your work, you are by any definition a thief. Maps aren't some commodity which by converting you are physically taking from someone. By properly crediting the original author you're not passing the work off as your own. Therefore how does one qualify a thief in this manner?

[Hannibal]

Maps aren't some commodity which by converting you are physically taking from someone. By properly crediting the original author you're not passing the work off as your own. Therefore how does one qualify a thief in this manner?

Let's start at ground zero. What is the motivation behind seeking permission in the first place? (for now, set aside any arguments that lean on whether you could in fact reach the original author)

[Foo]

Good question. I think it boils down to courtesy.

There is the question of copyright and fair use, but I'd like to avoid that if possible here because it would involve a very long debate.

[Hannibal]

Good question. I think it boils down to courtesy.

There is the question of copyright and fair use, but I'd like to avoid that if possible here because it would involve a very long debate.

Courtesy is one word, respect is another that might fit. And I think the moral question is more basic than the legal one.

[StormShadow]

Yes. You are a dirty stinking theif. Even if you give proper credit.

I certainly wouldnt remake someone elses map without their permission, and I think its in poor taste to do so.

You can say this but it's meaningless unless you back it up with reasoning. I'm not after straightforwards opinions (becuase they're valueless). Your opinions must surely be based on some underlying rationale?

I dont understand how, if you give proper credit and do not profit from your work, you are by any definition a thief. Maps aren't some commodity which by converting you are physically taking from someone. By properly crediting the original author you're not passing the work off as your own. Therefore how does one qualify a thief in this manner?

Well, you are taking someone elses intellectual property without permission, and you simply dont have the right to do that. And its unethical.

Here is a scenario: someone remakes one of your levels and does a lousy job. It looks bad, the texturing, lighting, etc. are off, and there are countless technical bugs and errors. Do you want your name on this map? Do you want a person who you dont even know (mis)representing your work?

Personally, I wouldn't want someone remaking one of my levels without permission. And even if they asked permission, I would check up on who the reuqester was, and what experience he had, as well as his previous body of work. Not that I'm snooty, I just dont want my name on a shoddy remake. And thats just me. Some other mappers may not even want their name on a good remake. Its the original mappers choice to make, not the remakers.

[Foo]

Well, you are taking someone elses intellectual property without permission, and you simply dont have the right to do that.

On this point, check above for notes on what constitutes a remake, remix, clone, etc.

The idea that a level *layout* could be considered intellectual property is laughable. Outside of 1:1 identical copies of a level that's a very complex issue.

Hence your statement cannot be valid when applied to this, unless you can further narrow your argument down.

[Foo]

Oh on an interesting related note: Under american law the right to cover (not remix) someone elses music is *automatically* granted irrespective of the artist's wishes. A nominal small fee is payable in this case.

Which is interesting and I think highly relevant. Covering music is almost directly comparable to creating a level based off someone elses.

Remixing (which is illegal without permission) would be akin to using actual elements of the author's level directly.