Rail to Bridge is possible.
Bridge to Rail the traditional way needs a big run up (from RL) I have read plus a crouch slide.
A new way from Bridge to Rail uses the little pillar/alcove thing with the 25h and uses 2 jumps. 1 from Bridge to alcove, 1 to Rail.
I dont think anyone has done bridge to rail in the traditional way yet like it could be done in Q3. Which is fine, a remade map doesnt need to be an exact copy and I for one welcome the few new wrinkles in game play, I was specing xfoo jump around on the new tourney map last night before I had to finish some christmas preps and he uses the crouch slide very very well, I need to practice, but honestly while Q4 does have more then a slight similarity to Q3 it doesnt need to be a carbon copy.
EDIT: I am wondering rgoer, if you can impart the idea behind the apparent design philosophy in some of the maps.
For example, why no RA on dm9? Why only a single armour on fleet, and railed? I dont think this should be out of line for you to answer and am just curious.
FIRST MAP PACK RELEASED
ra3 style matches, I am sure you know, cannot be replicated in vq4. If anything fleet and railed are instagib, very little health, and even less armour with the rail = death. These maps just dont hold up with the skill level present in todays players. Thats what I am curious about, why are the armour levels present really on maps with the rail.
sorry guys, but I decided not to make this post
here, I'll post a question instead of my opinion from the original post: do you guys think that item layouts lending themselves to map control via armor and armor-timing create a friendly environment for players who may be new to the Quake series?
here, I'll post a question instead of my opinion from the original post: do you guys think that item layouts lending themselves to map control via armor and armor-timing create a friendly environment for players who may be new to the Quake series?
Last edited by rgoer on Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
The new maps are really nice.. Mostly. I personally think that the DM6 remake is a little bit... visually unpleasing. The center area just looks kind of poor.. and why use simple patch meshes for all those hanging wires when you can walk right under them? It looks bad.
Gameplay on dm6 is good, though (aside from that weirdo clipping brush thing people are talking about)... It feels a lot like the original, but with ramp jumping, even faster.
The new CTF map is ART, plain and simple. I'm impressed.
And "Railed" is fun.. though perhaps, indeed, a railgun heaven as the name suggests... anybody with good "snap rail" aim will be nasty on this map.
All and all? It's great.. Now bring us a patch to fix downloads, voteflags, stats ("world" doesn't show up as a suicide in the logs), and some of the odd stability and performance issues? I know the "dual CPU" performance patch was embarassing when most people saw no improvement.. but keep trying. This is a great game, the mods are good, and bug fixes are really all we're missing, IMNVHO.
Gameplay on dm6 is good, though (aside from that weirdo clipping brush thing people are talking about)... It feels a lot like the original, but with ramp jumping, even faster.
The new CTF map is ART, plain and simple. I'm impressed.
And "Railed" is fun.. though perhaps, indeed, a railgun heaven as the name suggests... anybody with good "snap rail" aim will be nasty on this map.
All and all? It's great.. Now bring us a patch to fix downloads, voteflags, stats ("world" doesn't show up as a suicide in the logs), and some of the odd stability and performance issues? I know the "dual CPU" performance patch was embarassing when most people saw no improvement.. but keep trying. This is a great game, the mods are good, and bug fixes are really all we're missing, IMNVHO.
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PieceMaker
- Posts: 899
- Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:43 pm
Well, perhaps, but that only goes for game where there are no experienced players among the new ones that dominate everyone with rail... If rail wasn't the dominating weapon in VQ4 but RL instead, it might be slightly better.rgoer wrote:do you guys think that item layouts lending themselves to map control via armor and armor-timing create a friendly environment for players who may be new to the Quake series?[/color]
In short. Yes item layouts that create the potential for map control and armour timing do create a friendly environment.rgoer wrote:
here, I'll post a question instead of my opinion from the original post: do you guys think that item layouts lending themselves to map control via armor and armor-timing create a friendly environment for players who may be new to the Quake series?
Define friendly environment. Even if I get raped 15-2, if there is depth in the game which creates that situation I am fine with it.
Frag Yard 1v1, Stock Fleet, and most likely Railed which I havent had enough time to really experience, are not fun environments for anyone unless your holding the Rail. While armour timing takes a serious backseat, friendly for newbs I suppose, if your facing anyone near competent with a rail its like I said as near to instagib as your going to get in a baseq4 game.
Scratch friendly and replace it with fun. Even a new player can appreciate when someone locks down a map, and even better watches the low player break that control and come back, this depth can only be achieved if there can be a level of control in the map and not just a random state of affairs where the Rail or a solid rocket will take out the top guy as well as the low guy. Having everyone in a near state of death all the time is not fun, it makes people play slower, camp more, and forces everyone to become rail whores as they wont risk going into tight situations because they can never take any serious damage.
The current state of some of these maps, Frag 1v1, Lost Fleet, and now Railed, are sooo Rail dominated that you may as well pull the other weapons as they are useless against a good railer, which nearly everyone has become because of the hitbox size, 50-60% acc is not rare at all, and I have hit 70% on rose before, mostly due to all the JPs and long lines of sight but still. If everyone can rail and armour is in critical demand, the game slows down as simple as that.
So it really comes down to whether a map which has features leaning toward map control are more newbie friendly then environments that are more rail friendly in the current stock map set, and I and many others would have to say yes, it is much more newbie friendly if there are items that can be timed and controlled. Honestly any map worth playing is going to have some control elements but will also allow for the low player to come back. YA + Mega for the low player and RA for the control player or vise versa is pretty standard and can be seen in many maps from many different games. The thing is, look at Railed. Its open, has Rail, and one YA. If, god help the poor newbie, a good player gets the Rail and YA its over. The control player in this case will rove between rail and YA, and the low player will just die over and over and over. Stock Lost Fleet and Frag 1v1 are the same. All rail.
Maps cannot be designed for new players anymore imo because the skill level of the established player base is simply to high, if Frag/Fleet/Railed where designed for new players thats fine, but once any kind of proficiency with the easier to hit Rail is gained those maps become broken as the rail dominates the game due to a lack of armour.
Timing is a skill that can be learned really quite quickly, and with the amount of experience the average gamer has, not Quake player just every day gamer, I do not believe companies should be trying to level the playing field by designing maps that cannot be controlled armour wise, especially when it falls apart due to the power of a single hitscan weapon with infinite range.
A friendly environment for someone new, is one where there are items to pick up, and a weapon set that is balanced in such a way that there is always the potential to come back, note potential not garauntee to come back, a full stacked 200/200 opponent with a RL should steam roll you over and over, but that should be something very difficult to achieve due to item balance on the map once again with YA and Mega being close to eachother and far away from the RA. Its more fun to have some armour, a decent weapon, and get killed with a few shots then it is to have a decent weapon and get railed over and over and over with no chance for a come back because the single armour is owned by the guy with the rail.
Galang vs Frag 1v1/Stock Fleet/Railed, which would you rather play? Which do you think a new player would rather play?
Depth vs Accessability I guess is the question and depth should ALWAYS come first if you want a game to be played for more then 4 months before the new game comes out. People want to progress, see that their time spent playing a game is transfering into a correlation with their skill level and when you remove item control you remove a skill and therefore an aspect of depth which can give a game more longevitity.
I would play Galang for hours on end, I wont even touch Frag 1v1, its juts not fun against skilled or new opposition.
The flip side of all this is a map that is broken the other way, and that map is stock Over the Edge. Both armour, and the Mega are all very close together and can be dominated by the control player all map long, forget the fact that the lg is in there as well as 2 25s, some shards and RL ammo with a line of sight to the RG. That map is to easy to lock down, and lends itself to camping way to much, there is no flow. Obviously a balance has to be reached but making a map that is controlled through the rail is not the solution.
Hopefully that makes sense. Yes item layouts that create the potential for map control and armour timing do create a friendly environment.
NOTE: This is in no way a whine or flame and hope it does not come across as such, this is an attempt at a constructive post. :icon32: I wont even go into weapon balance and starting health in depth...
rgoer wrote:sorry guys, but I decided not to make this post
here, I'll post a question instead of my opinion from the original post: do you guys think that item layouts lending themselves to map control via armor and armor-timing create a friendly environment for players who may be new to the Quake series?
*rubs hands*
I'll assume we're talking solely about 1v1 levels here as that's the gametype where armor dominance comes into play the most.
On their own? No. Put two new players into a level which is tweaked to the max for competitive 1v1 play and they'll still have a blast, but won't use the item layouts in any sophisticated manner.
If up against a skilled player? No, not fun for a new player. However, a 1v1 level which isn't based around armor timing isn't interesting to experienced players.
Probable solution? Maybe a mix of maps, some which do and some which do not exhibit strong armor timing layouts. That way, the experienced players stick to maps that suit their playing style and new players get to play on maps that naturally deter the experienced players.
The problem? New players don't go looking for specific maps to play on, just getting on a server is sometimes challenging enough.
So it's possible you can't please all the people all the time with a single product. I'd argue it's best to create a game as suitable for the highest skilled players as possible, and everything and everyone below the highest levels will fall into place underneath. There is no such thing as 'dumbing down' sucessfully in quake yet
"Maybe you have some bird ideas. Maybe that’s the best you can do."
― Terry A. Davis
― Terry A. Davis
The thing is, remove the potential for armour control and the skilled player will still dominate the new player simply due to better aim and movement. The 3 maps with a single YA and Rail will be even more frustrating then a well designed map like Galang.
Nothing but experience can save a newbie in the Quake series because of the depth of experience many veteran players bring to the table.
Simply up against a skilled player a newbie isnt going to have fun either way, and I believe having more items to pick up so they can atleast survive a few shots will be more entertaining then getting railed then mg'd over and over.
Nothing but experience can save a newbie in the Quake series because of the depth of experience many veteran players bring to the table.
Simply up against a skilled player a newbie isnt going to have fun either way, and I believe having more items to pick up so they can atleast survive a few shots will be more entertaining then getting railed then mg'd over and over.
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prince1000
- Posts: 1892
- Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2001 8:00 am
Dm6 is the ugliest map ive ever seen. The way it looks completely ruins any possible fun that can be had from the map:(
So happy when I was downloading the map pack and then so confused when I saw the map. Confusion leads to anger, anger leads to hate...
I don't understand how the single player game looked so good and the MP maps look so bad. On top of that they are so hard to run for most people and they look so damn basic, how is this so? Unreal maps are a zillion times cooler and they run so easy.
I dont think an official map pack should contain remakes of old maps anyway.
So happy when I was downloading the map pack and then so confused when I saw the map. Confusion leads to anger, anger leads to hate...
I don't understand how the single player game looked so good and the MP maps look so bad. On top of that they are so hard to run for most people and they look so damn basic, how is this so? Unreal maps are a zillion times cooler and they run so easy.
I dont think an official map pack should contain remakes of old maps anyway.
Disagree.Mr.Bios wrote:Dm6 is the ugliest map ive ever seen. The way it looks completely ruins any possible fun that can be had from the map:(
So happy when I was downloading the map pack and then so confused when I saw the map. Confusion leads to anger, anger leads to hate...
I don't understand how the single player game looked so good and the MP maps look so bad. On top of that they are so hard to run for most people and they look so damn basic, how is this so? Unreal maps are a zillion times cooler and they run so easy.
I dont think an official map pack should contain remakes of old maps anyway.
I quite like dm9 as it is now, its the same but has enough differences either through the physics, or some small structure changes to freshen it up a bit, it doesnt look bad to me either. I dont care about how it looks as long as it isnt distracting at all so it works for me. I guess I will never understand why people demand the game look good, its not about looks, never has been and never should be. Now Torm will come in here and we can do our little thing about new games and good looks vs gameplay and fps. :icon26:
Besides, we where heading somewhere much more interesting then 'omg I hate this map', hopefully rgoer will share his opinion on armour control, rail domination and map design... :icon32:
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Tormentius
- Posts: 4108
- Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:00 am
If you don't want to see my inevitable response then quit typing the same tired, whiny shit. Its like a broken record.jester! wrote:I guess I will never understand why people demand the game look good, its not about looks, never has been and never should be. Now Torm will come in here and we can do our little thing about new games and good looks vs gameplay and fps. :icon26:
It was said with a smile torm, I have absolutely no problem rehashing things, just a bit of tongue in cheek humour.Tormentius wrote:If you don't want to see my inevitable response then quit typing the same tired, whiny shit. Its like a broken record.jester! wrote:I guess I will never understand why people demand the game look good, its not about looks, never has been and never should be. Now Torm will come in here and we can do our little thing about new games and good looks vs gameplay and fps. :icon26:
You need to relax, merry christmas and all that. :icon25:
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Tormentius
- Posts: 4108
- Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2002 8:00 am