Maps lacking artistic skills?

[Jenny]

For christ sake, these custom maps stink graphics wise.. moonson barely passes satisfactory, the rest are zZzzZ. Good job Lukin, hope you keep improving.

[Foo]

The stock MP maps look like shit too, rather unfair to single custom maps out.

[Lenard]

Agreed...

[Scourge]

Jeez, give it a little time. Q3 mappers have had several years to work on that shit. Or find a different game to play.

edit: It's not like a flood of textures and stuff just exploded out as soon as the game hit the shelves. Structurewise, give people a bit more time to work with the new tools. Q3 maps weren't all that impressive at the getgo either.

[jester!]

Tell me your fucking kidding.

They all look perfect. Meaning they dont detract from what actually matters, the gameplay. Yeah yeah its great to run around in nice pretty environments and oggle (sp!?) the nice flashy effects but in the end, without gameplay you are wasting your time and will be left with a bunch of shallow, hollow arenas.

Galang looks great, phrantic looks very solid, monsoon has decent detailing, but will you even notice the detailing when your timing the YA, RA, and Mega and trying to keep track of where your opponent is? Not very likely.

Now that I think about it the brushwork of the map is all I notice, and if it looks solid and structurally sound, on a subconcious level I am satisfied, probably why I like phrantic, it looks and feels solid to me. The little ramp by the HB in Galang feels to small, as do some bits in monsoon. However the gameplay is still there and so I am more then happy to pass away hours running through them over and over.

The rise of graphics into the premier spot in an attempt to fill the needs of the every day gamer has done absolutly nothing positive for the depth and gameplay of todays games. Like a bunch of candy it looks good, but your left wanting something more filling after a few hours if you arent already made sick to stomach. A solid steak however will take a good while to eat, and digest and will leave you satisfied for the rest of the evening. Technical mappers vs Gameplay mappers.

Bring back the gameplay like we have in Lukins maps, Phrantic, and so on, leave the pretty light shows to the kids.

[jagwah]

Bring back the gameplay...leave the pretty light shows to the kids

But why can't we have both?

Gameplay > graphics - yes

But,

Gameplay+Graphics > Gameplay alone, or Graphics alone

no?

[Scourge]

Bring back the gameplay...leave the pretty light shows to the kids

But why can't we have both?

Gameplay>graphics - yes

But,

Gameplay+Graphics > Gameplay alone, or Graphics alone

no?

That's been a catch22 of sorts for years. The 'perfect' map has seemed to be unatainable that I know of. Granted there are some that come close. Most mappers start with one side or the other in mind and the remaining aspect seems to suffer a bit. Maybe one day it will happen. Sadly it's a very hard goal to attain.

[jester!]

I think that at a certain point graphics detract from the gameplay and overall quality of a map. The big neon sign pointing to the MH in monsoon beta 1 is an example of that, it was brutally bright and added nothing to the longevity of the maps life.

Quality = Gamplay + Graphics where Graphics !> Gameplay else Quality = Gamplay - Graphics.

:icon25:

I am enjoying playing in Q4Max with textures, I havent played with a game not in picmip 6+ mode for years, but I honestly do not pay any attention to flashy effects and think that they are a waste of mappers time, and computer processing power.

EDIT: That said, thats only with a MP focus, in single player bring on the light show and put me into a movie type setting, my SP config is cranked as high as my new gfx card can handle.

[Dr4ch]

Weird, I find moonsoon to be the best looking map for q4 so far.The cyberpunk theme is really nice with the glowing signs and the atmosphere is just right.phrantic is ok and blip is ugly
But the community dm6 is nicer then the raven dm6 too.
I think mappers are doing a good job seeing the engine being different to q3.

[GODLIKE]

(This may possibly be a troll thread, and I hate to make people happy, but what the hell:)

Lukin's stuff is art; it's got good gameplay, and it looks great. Monsoon is more impressive than Galang, but I think the mapper undertook to DO more, with Monsoon.. Both maps, I suspect, will meet the designer's expectations when all is said and done.

There are other good-looking maps out there, but with the abscence of a level-bible (aka :LvL:), you have to hunt under rocks to find them.

RolatoR's "roladm_1", for example, is a fine map. I suspect that Method's "mash up streets" will be good too, once it's final.

It takes very, very little effort to yell "these things suck" on the Internet. But hey: That's what nerds DO, functionally.

[Eraser]

I like pretty maps, and I don't think the stock Q4 maps look that bad and there are a few custom maps that do look very good.

Also, Q4 isn't very old yet. People are still trying to get their first maps out, which unsurprisingly, will mostly be a project for orientation within the development environment. Most of the first custom Q3 maps looked far worse than the stock Q3 maps. Give it time, and people will get good ideas and the quality of the maps will improve.

[Method]

I'm working on something that has a different style than most Q4 maps. The maps is called Mash-Up Streets. Not 100% satisfied with visuals as most of my maps, due to the lack of the textures I need for the right atmopshere. So the look could be a bit repetitive. Though it was a tough job to create this environment with stock textures. I created all windows from scratch (frames and blinds) along with some antennas in the alleys.

I also had an idea of finding some texture artist who wuld do a bunch of Chicago loking textures, to create that 1930's feeling for Doom 3 (Quake 4) engine. Oh and here are some shots:




Beta version of Mash-Up Streets along with higher res screenshots can be found here:

http://www.methodonline.com/methtourney1.htm

Note: The screenshots are outdated.

-Method

[Foo]

I think the key thing that improves the look of your map method is that you're using textures that tile subtly.

Most of the ones being used in Q4 multi at the moment repeat both ways and do so in a visible tile fashion, and the levels end up looking like someone built them out of rubber stamps. The smaller repeating tiles look like ass when they start to get picmipped, and the level lighting looks even worse on them as well.

Example:


Unfair to single pjw's map out, especially since I quite like it. But it does show off what I mean quite heavily.

[xchaser]

Just bring back the Q2 textures with a little hump in it.

[GODLIKE]

I think the key thing that improves the look of your map method is that you're using textures that tile subtly.

Most of the ones being used in Q4 multi at the moment repeat both ways and do so in a visible tile fashion, and the levels end up looking like someone built them out of rubber stamps. The smaller repeating tiles look like ass when they start to get picmipped, and the level lighting looks even worse on them as well..

This is quite true, but it brings to mind a few logical problems in resolving it:

1) Most deathmatch maps involve large industrial-esque spaces (Q4 shipping with no gothic texture set, but we've seen that abused enough, maybe).. And large building tend to be manufactured from small repeating components. In many respects a "realistic" map would have far more repetition than most Quake4 maps; The angled walls and multi-facet surfaces that we've come to expect from a sophisticated Q4 killing grounds are completely unusual compared to "real life", where nobody worries about having the same wall throughout the entire second floor.

2) Being able to repeat components (space bar is my friend) literally halves the already huge time required to make a decently playable Q4 map. A Q2 map took two days, four if you wanted to really tweak it and be somewhat artistic. A complex room in Q4 mapping may take that long to get right, especially when you consider lighting.

3) Since mappers have to resolve all these concerns without coming up with the "rubber stamp look" described (quite rightly) by Foo... It's going to take some time for techniques to emerge. Some texture sets (either the space interior sets used in Galang and Lost Fleet, or the 'junkyard' sets used in the fragging yard) do not really strike the eye too repetitively. Others (like the MP textures from "The Rose" are nearly impossible to use without creating a certain degree of 'it all looks the same'...

4) The solution possibly (aside from obvious things like don't use the same texture in a long line of unbroken repetitions too often) is grunge maps; I don't know what you'd use if you really wanted a clean and shiny surface, but on "dirty" maps, grunge meshes really help to make small variations (like real life does) in otherwise identical sections.

Hmn. This is getting out of hand. I'm losing my train of thought. I'll let somebody else carry this..

BTW: Method: Looks good, buddy.

[primaltheory]

Yeah, I don't like the textures or the models that they gave us with this editor...imo doom 3 had wayy better textures

[Kat]

Bring back the gameplay...leave the pretty light shows to the kids

But why can't we have both?

Gameplay > graphics - yes

But,

Gameplay+Graphics > Gameplay alone, or Graphics alone

no?

It's actually impossible for this simple reason; people concerned with 'gameplay' are *only* really concerned with gameplay; conversly those that are interested in the 'art'. So you end up with two different camps of mappers both of which have technical concerns to worry about but the results end up being very different becasue of the different concerns each group has.

Mappers that can combine both are *very* rare and usually only to be found within a particular peer group (like the Q3's CPMA etc which is 'gameplay' focused). That also then means they're actually combining 'art' and 'gameplay' within the expectations of that peer group (the 'rules of play' if you like that CMPA has, for example) and also being judged based on that peer groups expectation of what *they* regard as a good map etc.

It's *not* besides the point that 'gameplay' is as subjective as 'eyecandy'.

IMHO, mappers should map their own ideas for their own purposes with their own preconceptions in mind (in terms of what *they* think is good gameplay within the context of the map being built) *unless* they're getting paid to do it. But then that just the opinion of someone from the 'art' camp that doesn't get paid to map

[CheapAlert]

EDIT: This isn't rnr
- Foo

[Lenard]

Yhey, Foo's shot has my pipe in it.

[Jenny]

To clarify, I singled Moonson out as the best looking map, so don't bash me.

Method, your map is one of the best looking also, but does'nt break the mold. but keep up the good work, i'm confident you and Lukin could take Q4 mapping to the next level. Excuse my critisim if it offends you, I'm just bored of satisfactory looking maps.

[Lukin]

Thanks for all good words.
Actually I agree with jester. Map making is more a craft than an art - at least for me. It's like being an architect: you can show your art skills when designing a museum or something like that, but when it comes to more common buildings you've got to focus on the usability. So the graphics in mp maps should only be a background, a decoration. Not the most important thing. Eye-candies are good in a short run, they also bring an attention to your work, but they will never keep the players for more than a few glimpses.

P.S. Stock "Q4" maps look nice imho, few of the custom levels are pretty too. The only thing I don't like it's the lack of variety in them. Mappers need more texture sets as soon as possible.

2nd P.S. My future maps will be even nicer. It's not that hard

[jester!]

psst... >.>

<.<

finish monsoon! :icon25:

[primaltheory]

yea! What he said!

And yes! I DEMAND MORE MODLES!

[Lukin]

psst... >.>

<.<

finish monsoon! :icon25:

Don't worry. It will become final before the 10th of January.