Ok, I've never seen q4 (or doom3 for that matter), but been reading some of the discussion here.
I have a question about dodging in quake4.
I think dodging (especially things like rails), is primarily a function of three factors:
a) movement speed relative to hitbox size
b) "impulse"
c) friction
By movement speed i'm speaking specifically about standard running speed (i.e. not strafe jumping etc.).
By impulse I mean the acceleration from zero UPS to movement speed.
By friction, I mean how fast you can change movement direction.
If all these things are at a high value, it means you can generate very fast strafe patterns, which are at the heart of dodging (I view strafe patterns as one of the primary interfaces of combat).
So has anyone quantitatively compared these variables between quake3 and quake4?
Question about dodging capabilities
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[xeno]Julios
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At a quick glance in both SDKs it seems basic values for friction and acceleration are the same (except for the water friction which is higher in one of the two).
Considering the movement code seems to be very, very similar, I guess someone with a bit of coding skill (i.e not me) could whip up some stats code that'd run on both fairly easily and in the same manner.
Considering the movement code seems to be very, very similar, I guess someone with a bit of coding skill (i.e not me) could whip up some stats code that'd run on both fairly easily and in the same manner.
Not sure about that. They're intrinsically related to the friction of the surface.[xeno]Julios wrote:well you could conceive of accelerating very fast on ice, but not being able to switch directions as fast.
Notwithstanding more complex interactions like skate blades + lateral strength of one's leg.
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[xeno]Julios
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true - in real life at least, although one can dissociate static from kinetic friction, and the static friction (which if high allows for fast acceleration from zero velocity) can be much higher than kinetic friction (which would make braking from speed to zero harder than accelerating from zero to speed). There may be some surface interactions which allow for such emergent properties of kinetic friction (where braking is harder than accelerating up to speed).Foo wrote:Not sure about that. They're intrinsically related to the friction of the surface.[xeno]Julios wrote:well you could conceive of accelerating very fast on ice, but not being able to switch directions as fast.
But in virtual environments, you're modeling these variables independently, unless it's an uber leet physics simulation.
Granted, I'm assuming the quake engine models these variables independently, so that you can reach full speed very fast yet take a long time to slow down. In fact I remember a few maps which had surfaces like this.
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[xeno]Julios
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thanks for info - any info on basic movement speed in quake4?hemostick wrote:At a quick glance in both SDKs it seems basic values for friction and acceleration are the same (except for the water friction which is higher in one of the two).
Considering the movement code seems to be very, very similar, I guess someone with a bit of coding skill (i.e not me) could whip up some stats code that'd run on both fairly easily and in the same manner.
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[xeno]Julios
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a) my system can barely run quake3 at acceptable performancewviperw wrote:Why don't you have Q4 yet Juliios? :P
b) i have no desire to play quake4. I'm not a gamer, i'm a quaker, and quake3 has all i need in terms of allowing an environment for advanced combat.
Most of the players that are left in q3 are those that have been playing for years - the combat is at an extraordinarily high level and i thrive in that environment.
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Freakaloin
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Re: Question about dodging capabilities
I'm an idiot...
People at ESR are saying that the ground friction and acceleration (how fast you can stop and how fast you can speed up) are lower in Q4. This is most likely true. So you are right about friction and acceleration being two different factors in Quake. If you're moving sideways and you stop strafing, friction brings you to a halt. If you're dodging (moving in one direction and then suddenly in the opposite direction) ground friction determines how quickly you can do this. With low ground friction you'll slide a bit before you change direction. Ground acceleration also determines how much you'll slide of course but not solely.
A less complex example would be a car accelerating from 0 to 100 kph. At low speed the dynamic or kinetic friction is almost 0, because that's the air friction (which is negligably small) in this case. The static friction at low speed would be the rolling friction of the tyres with the road. The further the car accelerates, the bigger the air friction becomes - it's proportional to the speed of the car and hence called kinetic or dynamic friction. Pretty basic physics (pre-university stuff).Foo wrote:Not sure about that. They're intrinsically related to the friction of the surface.
Notwithstanding more complex interactions like skate blades + lateral strength of one's leg.
I think it's an optical illusion, and it's really the same speed as q3. During the beta people kept complaining that the rockets were too slow like they are now, and the devs kept saying it was the same speed as q3. They even tried changing the rocket shader or some shit to make it look faster. Same thing is probably true with the movement.
The increased view height makes your own movement look slower but rockets shouldn't look slower. So something is messed up (ground acceleration too probably).riddla wrote:The scale of the Q4 player model being taller than the Q3 player models has to factor into the overall equation of why rockets seem slower, no?
edit: now that I think of it, probably not?