Should gay men be able to legally adopt children?

[Foo]

Actually I made an argument and people agreed with my reasoning. I didn't notice the same thing happen for you. Did it?

You've just trolled and shown yourself up to be an idiot. If you're happy with that so be it.

I'm not looking to win or even have an argument, I'm providing my opinion for a discussion and am interested in other opinions, whether they agree with me or not.

or maybe you're just retarded and don't even know it

Jesus christ, will you stop trolling this thread already you fucking idiot.

[Transient]

No I don't think Muslims should be stopped from adopting children, I feel that'a an entirely different scenario.

No, no it isn't. Not at all.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

You've just trolled and shown yourself up to be an idiot. If you're happy with that so be it.

I'm not looking to win or even have an argument, I'm providing my opinion for a discussion and am interested in other opinions, whether they agree with me or not.

or maybe you're just retarded and don't even know it

Jesus christ, will you stop trolling this thread already you fucking idiot.

have you noticed how much consideration he gives to opposing views? do you think you're getting through to him with reason?

[LawL]

Looks like your only argument against this is comparing it to someone elses argument of inter-racial marriage. But this attempt of playing the race card is not applicable to me as it's as far removed from what I believe, as can possibly be.

It may not be applicable to YOU, but it is certainly applicable to your argument. Very much so.

One example I can provide you with is my girlfriends brother who himself has just realised he is gay, and even without coming out to anyone at school, his inherant campness of personality has lead to him being bullied and vilified at school to a very large scale. If we lived in an ideal world like so many in this thread would appear to believe then this wouldn't be happening.

Being gay and having gay parents are wholly different things. To assume that they would both elicit equal teasing in school is simply ignorant.

I'm trying VERY hard here not to flame you. You've got to understand, you sound really narrow-minded...

It's my belief that a child will not receive any form of vilification from having inter-racial parents anywhere near to that which he would receive from having gay male parents.

I would say that being harassed for being gay and being harassed for having gay parents are indeed two very closely related issues, considering the object of vilification in both circumstances is homosexuality. Not to mention in the example I provided the child is not suffering abuse because he is gay, but simply because he is camp.

[Transient]

Well I guess we can just agree to disagree.

And everyone else will disagree with you along with me.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

*trys a different tack*

there are many studies which disprove Law's thesis

I believe a child adopted by a homosexual male couple will inevitably suffer at such a grand scale that their psychology would be damaged to a point of no return, and for this reason alone homosexual male couples should not be allowed to adopt.

all the scholarly studies done completely disagree

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

shall I reference some?

[[xeno]Julios]

i think being ugly or socially awkward is a much greater factor in determining whether you're gonna be ostracized in school.

Law - i know u said that you'll be repeating urself, but can u respond to my comments?

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Law's just upset because his dad likes the cock.

[Foo]

Law's just upset because his dad likes the cock.

[LawL]

The ability to accept and understand homosexual male couples as normal people with an alternate sexual preference is something that only a mature mind is capable of. And by mature I mean mature in age.

As foo points out, the distaste of homosexuality is primarily a function of culture, rather than maturity. It takes maturity to overcome cultural prejudice, sure, but cultural factors are primary here.

I believe a child adopted by a homosexual male couple will inevitably suffer at such a grand scale that their psychology would be damaged to a point of no return, and for this reason alone homosexual male couples should not be allowed to adopt.

This policy you advocate would simply entrench the problem further. By forbidding such adoption, culture becomes less accepting of alternate sexuality, which makes the stigmas even worse. Your policy holds water if we decide to succumb to cultural prejudice, but that kinda defeats the project of our evolution as moral and rational creatures.

Perhaps it is true that with time such a practise would become more accepted, but I just can't ever see it being accepted to the point that a large scale of vilification would not be received on the child's behalf. Homosexuality is supposedly accepted in most countries today. But even in those countries, imagine the scenario of two men walking into a pub which isn't a designated gay pub and start kissing one another. What do you think would happen? They would get assaulted. This is the actual reality.

Your opinion here is based on your own experiences and insights into a culture during your short stay here on this planet. I think it premature to generalize to all societies and times that we will never overcome our prejudices.

I don't believe it's an initial shock, too many people simply cannot understand or accept homosexuality as it goes against their instinct of heterosexuality, and children are the last people to be capable of this.

I'm not so sure that children's heterosexual instincts would cause them to ostracize gays. I think children's prejudice towards homosexuals is largely a function of them modeling adults' prejudice, or modeling institutionalized discrimination.

Primarily a function of culture, but also of maturity. I'm only taking into account cultures which accept homosexuality. The cultures which don't accept it won't even have the option of accepting homosexuality upon maturity.

As far as entrenching the problem further, I'd have to agree with you on this point.

I don't believe homosexuality will ever be truly accepted by society, and those who do come to accept it have to reach a level of maturity first. This excludes the majority of school children.

I think children simply ostracise anything that is different, and homosexuality is an extreme example of difference.

[Foo]

Any evidence within Greek history on the societal acceptance of the homosexuality which was a quite heavily documented aspect of that time?

[LawL]

Well I guess we can just agree to disagree.

And everyone else will disagree with you along with me.

I'm more than happy with that.

[[xeno]Julios]

I don't believe homosexuality will ever be truly accepted by society, and those who do come to accept it have to reach a level of maturity first. This excludes the majority of school children.

Couple things:

WHY don't you believe homosexuality will ever be truly accepted? Upon what basis? Are you relying on your own introspection?

And also see my point about children's actions as being modeled on adults' behaviour.

If a child sees an adult accept homosexual activity, it doesn't require much maturity to model that acceptance.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Principal findings

* Against a backdrop of increasing public acceptance, social science research concludes that children reared by gay and lesbian parents fare comparably to those of children raised by heterosexuals on a range of measures of social and psychological adjustment.

* Studies are increasing in number and rigor, but the body of research on gay/lesbian parents is relatively small and has methodological limitations. Still, virtually every valid study reaches the same conclusion: The children of gays and lesbians adjust positively and their families function well. The limited research on gay/lesbian adoption points in the same direction.

http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/policy ... ildren.php

but Law thinks otherwise so lets deny homosexuals a right to adopt

[shadd_]

homosexuality is over rated, overblown and overdiscussed. if some guy wants to suck some other guys dick, go ahead, i don't care to hear about it.

[LawL]

I simply believe it will never truly happen. Many cultures and religions for example teach people that homosexuality is wrong and is a punishable offence. Even cultures that are not bound by such aspects and accept homosexuality to a certain degree still have a large portion of their society who disagree with such a preference. It's not something which is going to happen any time in the forseeable future.

[werldhed]

The same was said about all kinds of social abnorms, throughout history. It will happen, without doubt.
Most people at this moment are willing to accept gays as people; they're just not ready to extend the same marital rights. But the next generation is on its way up, and who knows what that will bring. Especially as Christianity and Islam lose footing.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

I simply believe it will never truly happen. Many cultures and religions for example teach people that homosexuality is wrong and is a punishable offence. Even cultures that are not bound by such aspects and accept homosexuality to a certain degree still have a large portion of their society who disagree with such a preference. It's not something which is going to happen any time in the forseeable future.

which is why homosexuals need their rights enshrined in law by way of a Bill of Rights

[seremtan]

i still say unicorns make the best parents for gay children

but not elves

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Supporters, by contrast, argue that loving same-sex couples can be just as effective parents as mixed-sex couples. They say that statistics do not indicate that children raised by same-sex couples are any more likely to be affected by social problems, or are any more likely to "become" homosexual later in life.

Numerous studies conducted by the American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Academy of Pediatrics and other groups have found there to be little if any difference between the effects of parenting conducted by same-sex couples and that of heterosexual couples.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_adoption

[Foo]

I was taking a shit when I came up with a rather obvious hypothetical which would arise many times within a nation over the course of a year:
Suppose a man raises a regular nuclear family, goes through a divorce, is granted custody of his children, then chooses to enter a homosexual relationship.

Your stance Law, deducing from what you've stated thus far, would be that this person should stand to lose custody of his children in this circumstance.

Thoughts?

[werldhed]

I do believe that scenario has happened many, many times already. It's fairly common for people to end a marriage and start a gay relationship, although, I don't know what the custody outcome has been in such cases.

[[xeno]Julios]

I simply believe it will never truly happen. Many cultures and religions for example teach people that homosexuality is wrong and is a punishable offence. Even cultures that are not bound by such aspects and accept homosexuality to a certain degree still have a large portion of their society who disagree with such a preference. It's not something which is going to happen any time in the forseeable future.

So you have a hypothesis that because of institutionalized discrimination of gays (embodied through religion), society will never accept gays.

It's only a hypothesis, and I believe there are multiple precedents where institutionalized forms of discrimination have been overcome.

I've a couple questions:

1) Would you like society to eventually overcome this form of discrimination?

2) Do you think that it's (intrinsically) unhealthy for a child to be raised by homosexuals?

[Foo]

2) Do you think that it's (intrinsically) unhealthy for a child to be raised by homosexuals?

You know, this one is an interesting question in itself. Do we mean healthy for the particular child in question, or healthy for society as a whole, or some blend of the two?

After all, what do we really consider healthy for a society? Some societies would perhaps be better off with lower birth rates (China?) while others would benefit from higher (Japan?). To that end, might there be an impact upon these with gay adoption? Should it be factored into the equation at all.

To what end to we factor individual freedoms against the need for a society to flourish, grow or suceed in the various capacities in which it has any capability? Indeed, if a society were to enter a slow but painless decline, resulting in the eventual death of the society as the population approaches 1 then 0, does this really matter? Let's assume nobody has sufferedm but the group is reduced to nothing. Is this a loss? To who? There's noone left to mourn it that wouldn't have died of natural cause anyway.

Obviously I'm extrapolating this to an extreme, and assuming the GAY COUPLES = NO BREEDING argument... but it's an interesting stance to take a 'so what' approach to it and see where we end up once we skip the initial questions on which we almost always get hung up.