Should gay men be able to legally adopt children?

[LawL]

The same was said about all kinds of social abnorms, throughout history. It will happen, without doubt.
Most people at this moment are willing to accept gays as people; they're just not ready to extend the same marital rights. But the next generation is on its way up, and who knows what that will bring. Especially as Christianity and Islam lose footing.

Most adults in educated societies, but not most people as a whole, nor most children. If it does ever become accepted worldwide, it will be hundreds if not thousands of years until this occurs.

[LawL]

I simply believe it will never truly happen. Many cultures and religions for example teach people that homosexuality is wrong and is a punishable offence. Even cultures that are not bound by such aspects and accept homosexuality to a certain degree still have a large portion of their society who disagree with such a preference. It's not something which is going to happen any time in the forseeable future.

which is why homosexuals need their rights enshrined in law by way of a Bill of Rights

Unless their rights are already protected under common law.

[LawL]

I was taking a shit when I came up with a rather obvious hypothetical which would arise many times within a nation over the course of a year:
Suppose a man raises a regular nuclear family, goes through a divorce, is granted custody of his children, then chooses to enter a homosexual relationship.

Your stance Law, deducing from what you've stated thus far, would be that this person should stand to lose custody of his children in this circumstance.

Thoughts?

Of course not. That's taking things too far.

[LawL]

I simply believe it will never truly happen. Many cultures and religions for example teach people that homosexuality is wrong and is a punishable offence. Even cultures that are not bound by such aspects and accept homosexuality to a certain degree still have a large portion of their society who disagree with such a preference. It's not something which is going to happen any time in the forseeable future.

So you have a hypothesis that because of institutionalized discrimination of gays (embodied through religion), society will never accept gays.

It's only a hypothesis, and I believe there are multiple precedents where institutionalized forms of discrimination have been overcome.

I've a couple questions:

1) Would you like society to eventually overcome this form of discrimination?

2) Do you think that it's (intrinsically) unhealthy for a child to be raised by homosexuals?

1) Most definately.

2) No.

[werldhed]

The same was said about all kinds of social abnorms, throughout history. It will happen, without doubt.
Most people at this moment are willing to accept gays as people; they're just not ready to extend the same marital rights. But the next generation is on its way up, and who knows what that will bring. Especially as Christianity and Islam lose footing.

Most adults in educated societies, but not most people as a whole, nor most children. If it does ever become accepted worldwide, it will be hundreds if not thousands of years until this occurs.

I realize this part of the debate encompasses homosexuality in general, but if we consider adoption again, where would you expect gay adoption laws to be passed? In educated societies, of course. That means in general, homosexuality and gay rights can be expected to gain acceptance in areas where it is an important issue. Therefore, where kids are allowed to have gay parents, it is more likely to be an accepted social norm.

In terms of the thousands of years, keep in mind that, as foo alluded, acceptable homosexuality has been around long before the modern religions (by which I mean xianity, judaism, islam...). So it shouldn't be too difficult to imagine it returning without much trouble. The big hurdles right now are the religions, which, as I mentioned, are slipping. And as the "unnatural" argument that is often used by these people continues to fail (e.g. homosexuality in animals, genetics, etc.), there isn't much left for them to stand on.

[LawL]

I know it can only be argued in terms of educated societies, the thought of gay adoption in societies other than these is impossible. Yet still even in these societies there are many who still cannot accept such a preference, and the vast majority of those who do, only do so upon maturity.

[[xeno]Julios]

Law, thanks for answering my questions.

You still haven't addressed a couple issues though:

1) There are precedents where societies have overcome institutionalized discrimination which was at the time seen to be inextricably embedded in culture. Why do you think homosexuality is an exception?

2) You keep resting on the notion that it requires maturity to overcome instinctual prejudice (and hate). I've pointed out that children tend to model adults' behaviour, and therefore if adults are accepting of homosexuality, then children can do so by modeling such acceptance. In a sense they would have short-circuited any instinctual prejudice. Similar things can be said about racial tolerance - it can be argued that a white person would instinctually cause fear and prejudice in a black person who had never seen a white person before. Yet, because acceptance of white people is institutionalized, black children have little difficulty modeling such acceptance.

[LawL]

I simply believe only those with enough intelligence and maturity are able to overcome such discriminatory behaviour and opinions, and unfortunately most do not have this ability. I believe the educated are lulled into a false sense of reality as they spend much of their associations within a conservative environment, denying them a realistic view of society. I also do not believe that a parents beliefs are enough to curb a child's actions during their schooling years.

[[xeno]Julios]

I simply believe only those with enough intelligence and maturity are able to overcome such discriminatory behaviour and opinions, and unfortunately most do not have this ability. I believe the educated are lulled into a false sense of reality as they spend much of their associations within a conservative environment, denying them a realistic view of society. I also do not believe that a parents beliefs are enough to curb a child's actions during their schooling years.

You keep asserting this belief without backing it up against my challenges.

Challenge #1: societies in the past have overcome institutionalized forms of discrimination - why is homosexuality different? See my racism example.

Challenge #2: maturity is not the sole means to overcome discrimination - modelling behaviour of adults and embodying cultural norms is a capability that children possess way before they are intellectually or morally mature.

Your argument about being mature enough to overcome discrimination only holds in a society which embodies discrimination at an adult, and institutional level.

In other words, if we were to raise a child in an environment where culture was openly accepting of homosexuality, such a child would not NEED to be mature to accept homosexuality. Do you understand this?

[LawL]

It's hard to back up an opinion which is formed simply by paradigm. I don't deny the fact that society may one day be able to overcome such discrimination, it's just that such an ideal is a very long way off becoming a reality. Especially considering there are entire countries in which homosexuality is a punishable crime, and those countries in which it is legal, only a portion of the society (the educated) actually accept it. Like I said, I don't agree that the majority of children are able to comprehend homosexuality (and that's the only form of discrimination i'm concerning myself with here) until they reach a mature age.

There isn't a culture on the planet where the majority of adults or children openly accept homosexuality. Do you understand this?

[Ryoki]

There isn't a culture on the planet where the majority of adults or children openly accept homosexuality. Do you understand this?

I'd say the majority of people accept it where i live.

[Grudge]

Testo is back?

[Grudge]

There isn't a culture on the planet where the majority of adults or children openly accept homosexuality. Do you understand this?

I'd say the majority of people accept it where i live.

Btw, same here.

[[xeno]Julios]

I don't deny the fact that society may one day be able to overcome such discrimination, it's just that such an ideal is a very long way off becoming a reality. Especially considering there are entire countries in which homosexuality is a punishable crime, and those countries in which it is legal, only a portion of the society (the educated) actually accept it.

The same may be said about discrimination against other ethnic groups, women, women who behaved strangely (witch trials). I suspect that there were many, living in the age of slavery, who believed that while slavery was wrong, it was such an intrinsic part of society that it would never be abolished.

Societies can change VERY rapidy. I live in a city where gays can openly express themselves without hassle - indeed there are entire regions of downtown toronto which have thriving gay cultures. These aren't gated communities either.

Like I said, I don't agree that the majority of children are able to comprehend homosexuality (and that's the only form of discrimination i'm concerning myself with here) until they reach a mature age.

You still haven't addressed my second challenge - the fact that children do not need to be mature to be accepting of homosexuality. Children model behaviour of adults, and embody institutional values WITHOUT higher cognitive reasoning.

Do you understand this point? Yes or no - i'm asking sincerely here, as i think it may be a sticking point. Do you agree with the above paragraph or not?

There isn't a culture on the planet where the majority of adults or children openly accept homosexuality. Do you understand this?

There is a tribe in africa where male boys perform oral sex on older boys to receive sperm. They believe that this is the only way to get sperm (since they believe that sperm is a limited resource in the male body and doesn't get reproduced). When they reach adulthood, they form heterosexual marriages without exception.

I would argue that one male sucking another boys penis and swallowing his semen is a decidedly homosexual act.

[LawL]

There are just as many examples against as there are for. While many areas contain adults which are capable of accepting homosexuality, there are more areas containing people that don't. And once again my issue is with the reaction the child would receive at school, not what the adults in the society believe.

I have addressed your claim that children do not need to be mature in order to accept homosexuality and need nothing more than accepting parents. This is an entirely wrong belief as far as I'm concerned. Children are more than capable of thought other than that which mimics their parents, especially when it comes to homosexuality.

Did you see my example of my girlfriends brother who receives physical and psychological punishment at school on a daily basis from his peers simply because he is camp? How does this happen? He goes to school in New Zealand which is a modernised, homosexually accepting, European colonised society. According to your theory this shouldn't occur simply because the adults accept homosexuality.

Instead of saying "there isn't a culture on the planet" I would have been more accurate to say "the vast majority of cultures on the planet", which would exclude any minute examples to the contrary.

[[xeno]Julios]

Ty believe.

I have addressed your claim that children do not need to be mature in order to accept homosexuality and need nothing more than accepting parents. This is an entirely wrong belief as far as I'm concerned. Children are more than capable of thought other than that which mimics their parents, especially when it comes to homosexuality.

Did you see my example of my girlfriends brother who receives physical and psychological punishment at school on a daily basis from his peers simply because he is camp? How does this happen? He goes to school in New Zealand which is a modernised, homosexually accepting, European colonised society. According to your theory this shouldn't occur simply because the adults accept homosexuality.

Ok maybe I didn't convey the meaning comprehensively enough.

I'm not talking about mimicking beliefs - i'm talking about embodying moral principles which are embedded in society. Think of it as the cultural subconscious, manifest in our behaviours in extraordinarily subtle ways.

As an example, if a child saw camp behaviour being glorified in movies and cartoons as honourable and normal, then that child would be less likely to find it distasteful.

If a few of the child's parents' gay friends came over and visited for dinner, and expressed their love for each other openly, the child would notice this and internalize it as normal WITHOUT any higher cognitive processes going on.

You'd be amazed at how much these subtle cues can mould our consciousness. The African tribe is a perfect example - children, despite any instincts you claim they have against homosexuality, find it perfectly normal to perform fellatio upon their elder brethren.

My point is simply that if you change the cues, you can change children's consciousness around the issues.

You keep obsessing with the notion that homosexuality is instinctually offensive, and that this instinct can overpower any cultural influence - what evidence do you have for that?


If anything, children, with their relatively undeveloped notion of heterosexuality would not find homosexuality offensive.

[LawL]

Well it's an embodiment which I don't see school children taking on, nor do I believe they will be capable of taking on for a very long time, if ever at all.

Any notion I put forward as to the actual reason people find homosexuality offensive would only be a guess on my behalf, and would no doubt vary from person to person.

[Ryoki]

Watching Jules argue is like watching an exotic dancer shake her tits.

[MKJ]

unsincere yet pleasing?

[Ryoki]

More like rare & hypnotising.

[l0g1c]

Actually, pedantic and boring.

Actually, I just wanted to use the word "pedantic". Word up, Jules. :icon11:

Oh, and to be relevant. The government shouldn't have the slightest influence on how you rear your progeny.

[Quake addiction]

This is just fucking pointless

[[xeno]Julios]

Well it's an embodiment which I don't see school children taking on, nor do I believe they will be capable of taking on for a very long time, if ever at all.

So you're claiming that even if society was openly accepting of homosexuality, children would still act in a hostile fashion towards homosexuality?

[LawL]

More so that society will never reach such a level of acceptance.

[Massive Quasars]

Well it's an embodiment which I don't see school children taking on, nor do I believe they will be capable of taking on for a very long time, if ever at all.

So you're claiming that even if society was openly accepting of homosexuality, children would still act in a hostile fashion towards homosexuality?

More importantly, where is the support for these claims?