Should gay men be able to legally adopt children?

[Jackal]

i know a guy(since we were kids)whos wife recently left him for another woman. they have 2 kids, a girl 11, and a boy 18.

the young girl was absolutely devastated, the fact her mother left for another woman really added to her devastation. however the older boy seemed to accept the fact and is none worse for wear.

he was mature enough to accept it but i think the young girls natural hetero instincts came into effect and crushed her emotions.

What are "natural hetero instincts"?

[shadd_]

you know the movie "blue lagoon"?

instinct: "nstinct is the inherent disposition of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Instincts are generally inherited patterns of responses or reactions to certain kinds of stimuli. In humans they are most easily observed in behaviors such as emotions, sexual drive, and other bodily functions, as these are largely biologically determined. Instinct provides a response to external stimuli, which moves an organism to action, unless overridden by intelligence, which is creative and hence far more versatile. Since instincts take generations to adapt, an intermediate position, or basis for action, is served by memory, which provides individually stored successful reactions built upon experience. The particular actions performed may be influenced by learning, environment and natural principles. Generally, the term instinct is not used to describe an existing condition or established state."

mature person has the intelligence to overcome instinct, a young child does not. should a young person be thrown into turmoil while they gain experience from gay parents?

[LawL]

lol law... stop being a prick and just accept that your oppinion is shit.

natural instincts against homosexuality??? go get a clue... there was a lot of brockeback action going on in early times and still is among both humans and other species.

psychological damage? fuck off.

jews better than fags? fuck off, adolf.

Sorry, that's not going to happen.

I've stated several times I don't know why people discriminate against homosexuals, this doesn't negate the fact that it happens. Nor have I stated anywhere that it's a natural instinct to discriminate against them.

Psychological damage? Yes I believe it can happen.

"Jews" better than "fags"? (nice terminology by the way). I never said that either. I said children are more accepting of Jewish couples than they are of gay couples when someone provided the example that Jewish couples should not be allowed to adopt using the same logic.

[bikkeldesnikkel]

my daughters are 10 and 12, they pay out on fat kids/ teachers at school every day (at home), when they're watching TV and talking between themselves, they ask/tell each other 'he's gay or he looks gay" or when they're watching mtv and an old clip comes on one or the other ask, "is he gay" ?
i was watching the news the other month and the gay madi gra(sp?) come on, both of them said "ewwww look at the gays "
this is solely from them.
no input from my wife or myself.

Do they get bullied by fat kids/teachers or is it the other way around?

Would your kids traumatize another kid for having gay parents? And if they would, would you punish them for it?

1. no, they neither bully or get bullied, i did say " at home" meaning they talk about it at home, not at school or in front of the person.( but it doesn't stop them thinking/talking about it,) which you seem to think "kids don't really care about anything!" untrue.

Yes I should rephrase that, what I meant was that they aren't serious in their beliefs, they can be altered by good reasoning, or a convincing attitude. They probably say those things but mean something else right? It sounds like they are just using the word gay for 'acting gay' and not being gay. So if you'd inform kids about this they might understand the difference.

It's hard to explain what i meant by that statement... At a young age almost everything they do and say is a form of mimicing right? That means there's no substance to their actions, that's why I said that kids don't really 'care' about anything, they mimic and use their emotions to act.

2.no they wouldn't, or i would like to think they wouldn't.
define "punish"

Beating them senseless.

[bikkeldesnikkel]

I'll rewrite the scenario then.
People are not against homosexuals and homosexual parenting.

That's about good enough, they might have a bit of trouble in school but not so much as to have psychological traumas.

Would that still be enough to forbid them from adopting children?

If it doesn't result in psychological trauma on the child then I have no problem with it.

But do you agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma?

[Pext]

i know a guy(since we were kids)whos wife recently left him for another woman. they have 2 kids, a girl 11, and a boy 18.

the young girl was absolutely devastated, the fact her mother left for another woman really added to her devastation. however the older boy seemed to accept the fact and is none worse for wear.

he was mature enough to accept it but i think the young girls natural hetero instincts came into effect and crushed her emotions.

this has got nothing to do with hetero instincts - it's only a matter of age.
psychoanalysis would say that the young girl was still relying on her parents and their relation as a safehaven to live in.
besides seeng the relation itself cromble, the fact that what she had come to believe was normal ( man-woman-family stuff ~ this schematic is very early on imprinted into a young persons mind ) became uncertain, she suddenly lost even more grip to the world.
but this has nothing to do with instincts about sexuality.

it's just that more stuff she thought to be safe, became uncertain for her.

[Transient]

umm...

Please answer yes or no:

Imagine you raised a child in an environment where homosexuality was openly accepted as normal. The child's parents had gay friends over frequently and these gay people expressed themselves openly.

Imagine hollywood movies had gay heroes.

Imagine camp attitudes were portrayed as normal, in cartoons for example.

Imagine language changed to become gay-friendly.

Now here's my question - do you believe a child would have hostility toward gays in this environment?

Probably not, but what's the point in discussing a hypothetical situation that will never become a reality?

"Probably not" is far from a definite answer, plus it's an answer to a scenario that will never take place.

Never? So you can see into the future now?
What about the past? Can you read history textbooks that all document the fact that homosexuality used to be commonplace; where Julios' hypothetical situation was largely realized?

[LawL]

But do you agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma?

The scenario where "they might have a bit of trouble in school but not so much as to have psychological traumas" ? Umm, yes I agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma.

[shadd_]

@Pext,

it definately added to her trauma. do i think she will overcome it? sure she will over time and hopefully no long term emotional damage.

and yes i understand a "traditional" family break up can be devastating without a gay factor involved.

[LawL]

umm...

Please answer yes or no:

Imagine you raised a child in an environment where homosexuality was openly accepted as normal. The child's parents had gay friends over frequently and these gay people expressed themselves openly.

Imagine hollywood movies had gay heroes.

Imagine camp attitudes were portrayed as normal, in cartoons for example.

Imagine language changed to become gay-friendly.

Now here's my question - do you believe a child would have hostility toward gays in this environment?

Probably not, but what's the point in discussing a hypothetical situation that will never become a reality?

"Probably not" is far from a definite answer, plus it's an answer to a scenario that will never take place.

Never? So you can see into the future now?
What about the past? Can you read history textbooks that all document the fact that homosexuality used to be commonplace; where Julios' hypothetical situation was largely realized?

No I can't see into the future, I certainly am capable of speculating in light of today's society though. Can you see into the future and know that homosexuality will suddenly be accepted worldwide?

[bikkeldesnikkel]

But do you agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma?

The scenario where "they might have a bit of trouble in school but not so much as to have psychological traumas" ? Umm, yes I agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma.

And from experience I can say that this scenario is fairly easily obtainable. So do you agree that it is possible for male homosexual partnes to raise adopted children without too much hassle in the near future?

[Pext]

Nor have I stated anywhere that it's a natural instinct to discriminate against them.

you're trying to evade. i was not talking about an instinct for the discrimination of gays.

when you use the term heterosexual/anti-homosexual instinct you imply that heterosexuality is the natural way. that however is wrong.
for example amongst lions, homosexuality is pretty comon and serves as a stabilising factor for their social network.

[busetibi]

my daughters are 10 and 12, they pay out on fat kids/ teachers at school every day (at home), when they're watching TV and talking between themselves, they ask/tell each other 'he's gay or he looks gay" or when they're watching mtv and an old clip comes on one or the other ask, "is he gay" ?
i was watching the news the other month and the gay madi gra(sp?) come on, both of them said "ewwww look at the gays "
this is solely from them.
no input from my wife or myself.

Out of curiosity, did you confront your kids about what they were saying?

Oh, and it's "Mardi Gras", BTW.

lol, yer i knew the spelling was fucked, couldn't be arsed to look it up.(no pun)
confront?
i told them that everyone has the right to choose their own partners, be it male with male or female with female or male with female, and that its the individuals choice.

[LawL]

But do you agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma?

The scenario where "they might have a bit of trouble in school but not so much as to have psychological traumas" ? Umm, yes I agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma.

And from experience I can say that this scenario is fairly easily obtainable. So do you agree that it is possible for male homosexual partnes to raise adopted children without too much hassle in the near future?

I don't agree that it is easily obtainable nor do I agree that it is possible for male homosexual partners to raise adopted children without too much hassle in the near future.

[Pext]

@Pext,

it definately added to her trauma.

i would certainly agree that this aggravated her state ~ it's just that the notion of an instinct is wrong in this situation.

[Transient]

No I can't see into the future, I certainly am capable of speculating in light of today's society though. Can you see into the future and know that homosexuality will suddenly be accepted worldwide?

It doesn't have to happen "suddenly". It can take decades, even centuries, but it can happen. It doesn't have to happen worldwide, either. The Greeks were doing it around 3000 years ago.

[shadd_]

But do you agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma?

The scenario where "they might have a bit of trouble in school but not so much as to have psychological traumas" ? Umm, yes I agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma.

And from experience I can say that this scenario is fairly easily obtainable. So do you agree that it is possible for male homosexual partnes to raise adopted children without too much hassle in the near future?

i think it's more than possible for gays to raise children and be good parents. what i don't have to agree on is a carte blanche on anything people want to teach kids.

[LawL]

Nor have I stated anywhere that it's a natural instinct to discriminate against them.

you're trying to evade. i was not talking about an instinct for the discrimination of gays.

when you use the term heterosexual/anti-homosexual instinct you imply that heterosexuality is the natural way. that however is wrong.
for example amongst lions, homosexuality is pretty comon and serves as a stabilising factor for their social network.

I'm not trying to evade anything, I was pointing out how ridiculous your post was, the best you could do was put words in my mouth so to speak. And I'm not concerned with the instinct of sexuality.

[busetibi]

Do they get bullied by fat kids/teachers or is it the other way around?

Would your kids traumatize another kid for having gay parents? And if they would, would you punish them for it?

1. no, they neither bully or get bullied, i did say " at home" meaning they talk about it at home, not at school or in front of the person.( but it doesn't stop them thinking/talking about it,) which you seem to think "kids don't really care about anything!" untrue.

Yes I should rephrase that, what I meant was that they aren't serious in their beliefs, they can be altered by good reasoning, or a convincing attitude. They probably say those things but mean something else right? It sounds like they are just using the word gay for 'acting gay' and not being gay. So if you'd inform kids about this they might understand the difference.

It's hard to explain what i meant by that statement... At a young age almost everything they do and say is a form of mimicing right? That means there's no substance to their actions, that's why I said that kids don't really 'care' about anything, they mimic and use their emotions to act.

2.no they wouldn't, or i would like to think they wouldn't.
define "punish"

Beating them senseless.

i have never beat my children, or ever would.
violence to children is abhorrent imho.

[LawL]

No I can't see into the future, I certainly am capable of speculating in light of today's society though. Can you see into the future and know that homosexuality will suddenly be accepted worldwide?

It doesn't have to happen "suddenly". It can take decades, even centuries, but it can happen. It doesn't have to happen worldwide, either. The Greeks were doing it around 3000 years ago.

Well in a few centuries it will be possible for homosexual couples to adopt children without psychological harm occurring on the child through school, as it would have also been possible with the Greeks 3000 years ago.

[bikkeldesnikkel]

The scenario where "they might have a bit of trouble in school but not so much as to have psychological traumas" ? Umm, yes I agree that this scenario wouldn't cause psychological trauma.

And from experience I can say that this scenario is fairly easily obtainable. So do you agree that it is possible for male homosexual partnes to raise adopted children without too much hassle in the near future?

I don't agree that it is easily obtainable nor do I agree that it is possible for male homosexual partners to raise adopted children without too much hassle in the near future.

Sorry but I think it's a bit shortsighted to believe that this scenario is not (easily) obtainale, there are many locations where gays are accepted and could raise a child without extra problems.

You yourself say you would accept this, don't you think there are more people like this? You have a pessimistic view of society that I think is out of context. There ARE plenty of locations where this is possible.

[bikkeldesnikkel]

Let me ask you this:
In these locations I speak of, do you think gay men should be able to legally adopt children?

[busetibi]

How is saying children are accepting of Jewish parents anti-semitic?

lol...u didn't say that dumbo...u said 'more' accepting u racist homophobe...

jellus?

why bring jews into this, why not say muslims or christians or budists or hindus?
tell me, why did you pick the jewish faith?
(okay so some of the spelling is fucked, its 12:03 am here, cut me some slack you cunts)

[bikkeldesnikkel]

1. no, they neither bully or get bullied, i did say " at home" meaning they talk about it at home, not at school or in front of the person.( but it doesn't stop them thinking/talking about it,) which you seem to think "kids don't really care about anything!" untrue.

Yes I should rephrase that, what I meant was that they aren't serious in their beliefs, they can be altered by good reasoning, or a convincing attitude. They probably say those things but mean something else right? It sounds like they are just using the word gay for 'acting gay' and not being gay. So if you'd inform kids about this they might understand the difference.

It's hard to explain what i meant by that statement... At a young age almost everything they do and say is a form of mimicing right? That means there's no substance to their actions, that's why I said that kids don't really 'care' about anything, they mimic and use their emotions to act.

2.no they wouldn't, or i would like to think they wouldn't.
define "punish"

Beating them senseless.

i have never beat my children, or ever would.
violence to children is abhorrent imho.

jk I know nothing about raising kids, I just mean some form of punishment (grounded) or maybe a long, long, loooong preach!

[Transient]

If there are methods which can be successfully implemented to eradicate the damage the child would be subjected to at school then I'd be all for it.

Well, I just gave a bunch of examples. Some of those examples are used already for other reasons (for instance, the kid has a deformity or something, maybe, and gets teased, so they're homeschooled). If public schools cracked down on intolerant bullying, then the problem would go away, too. All my examples can and are used for different circumstances, so your whole argument is moot. Everything you say you are worried about can be overcome.

lol, my whole argument is far from moot, considering the scenario I put forward is based upon the hypothetical circumstance of a child being in a normal school. Stop trying to win, and just discuss.

You still haven't addressed my point. I have to hand it to you, you're pretty good at steering the debate in the direction you want to take it.

Your main argument is that gay parents shouldn't be able to adopt due to the subsequent treatment of their kids in school.
My rebuttal is on page 4 and is the source of the above quote. To paraphrase myself, there are countermeasures to your concerns that are already implemented in society. Your sole reasoning for making adoption for gay couples illegal is irrelevant, thus adoption should be legal.

This thread should not have 8 pages...