[Q4] FINAL kat_q4dm2

[Kat]

UPDATE

Please note : I've done a quick update on the final file in the last hour or two since uploading the final version but as I've been having problems accessing the forums I've not been abole to update the info regarding this. It means the older version may still have been available foa bit and been downloaded. If you have, grab the new version now.

FINAL

Changelog - main items

• *Removed a couple of 'dead' textures I missed so file size is slilghtly smaller now
  *Moved lower jump pad (see pjw, obsidian's comments below)
  *Aslo added some rocks to 'guide' player to approach 'correctly'

Download
map-kat_q4dm2.zip @ c.15MB

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BETA 3 (final)

Changelog - main items

• *Fixed misreferenced texture in material
  *Lower lamps so a couple are more easy to JP onto (still to high for normal jumps though)
  *Resized 1024 textures to 512 as it doesn't really make that much visual difference (for an MP map)

Download
beta3map-kat_q4dm2.zip @ c.17MB

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BETA 2

Changelog - main items

• *Fixed a few UVW errors
  *Lava updated
  *Swapped RL and NG
  *Removed GL replaced with SG
  *Fixed jumppad triggers (collision)
  *Added some missing DDS images
  *Added glow layer to lanterns
  *Updated a few textures

Download
REMOVED beta2map-kat_q4dm2.zip @ c.30MB

Incidently the DDS version of the textures only use 7MB. The map has also been botClipped where possible which I forgot to mention for Beta 1.

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Okay, beta time.

I'm basically looking for item placement 'ideas' and missing assets feedback on this. I've tried to have a weapon or major item per area but ammo and health got a bit tricky to place so I'm not 100% happy with it. No railgun by the way ;o)

Everything is custom, models, textures and sound (apart from the jumppad sounds). ZIP weighs in at 25MB including a couple of 1024 assets sets and the DDS versions of them. At 640x480 low quality I pretty much lock out at 60FPS although there are a couple of spots lower than that and a 40FPS peak looking across the upper area.

Download
REMOVED beta1map-kat_q4dm2.zip @ c.25 MB

Shots
FPS is low in these shots as I took them on UltraQuality and my PC doesn't like that!.




Usual 'thanks' in advance.

[Kaz]

Wow, kat... wow.

Downloading now!

[wviperw]

Oh sure, just when I start to think my rocks look half decent, you have to go and do this. :P

[GODLIKE]

This is pretty creative.. and I think the custom bouncepads look great.

Still: wouldn't it be better to blend traditional brushwork with models? I mean, if there were some actual structures, together with all this nice rock.. You could probably turn it into something that people would want to really play in. It's too disorienting..and just possibly, too huge.

It's all very pretty.. And might make a great single player level, if you had to explore the whole thing and find secrets or collect clues.. I just think that after "cradle".. this is just more of the same.

Don't get me wrong.. The lava is amazing. The sounds are great. The lighting cast by the crystals is dramatic.. But I can't imagine spending even five minutes deathmatching in this level... and I'm pretty happy playing new custom maps.

..just my 2c..

[Kat]

...It's too disorienting..and just possibly, too huge....

Don't have that said to me very often!.

It's funny you should say that because that's exactly what I was trying to do. I was just chatting to wviperw on MSN about the map and although it *appears* overwhelming (for want of a better word) the pathways through it are very deliberate, it's just the space around them that's big.

I learnt early on with my Doom 3 map experiments that brushwork and models don't mix too well when the models are part of the overall geometry of a level, the game can't seem to figure out what's supposed to be happening where models and brushes meet so you can find yourself jumping through into the void.

There's an "hmmmm" associated with brushwork because with big models like this is introduces too many collision problems that would have meant doing some heavy player clipping; to the extent that you wouldn't be able to get near the walls. I didn't want to do that as I wanted to allow players the chance to crawl all over the map where possible (I'm not leet enough to do a fraction of them but there are ledges and under/over-cuts for the taking for those with the right skillz!).

To be honest, man-made stuff doesn't really float my boat these days so the stuff I do now is *very* self indulgent I'm afraid.

You don't need to feel " " btw. Thanks for the input.

PS wviperw mentioned something on MSN about the lanterns which I completely forgot to do, they should 'glow' better using a different method (same as used for the lava in fact) which I didn't think to use, so that'll be added to the next beta.

[obsidian]

I love that fresh format and reinstall OS feeling. Smells like a new car. Looks like I'll have to reinstall Q4. Turning out nicely, Kat.

BTW, if anyone's wondering, 9fps is only because Kat turned up the resolution for the screenshot.

[o'dium]

I love that fresh format and reinstall OS feeling. Smells like a new car. Looks like I'll have to reinstall Q4. Turning out nicely, Kat.

BTW, if anyone's wondering, 9fps is only because Kat turned up the resolution for the screenshot.

Which, btw is not needed, because everybody should be taking shots at any res and AA no matter what resolution your on or AA is set

A little tip:

pull down the console and type:

screenshot "width" "height" "sample"

In other words, typing "screenshot 1280 1024 16" will produce a screen shot of 1280x1024 with 16x AA, no matter WHAT resolution your on. I think this goes up to about 4000 odd in res.

Its good for level shots if you dont have an art program.

[o'dium]

Ok, played the map, a few issues and things spring to mind:

1) Theres a touch of z-fighting on one of the blocks up top, it seems to pop in/out of view randomly. Its up by the LG.

2) Harsh lighting. In some places, the floor will be full bright and the wall next to it will be pitch black. I dunno how you have done this, i'm guessing your smooth model normals are wrong...? Saying that, i can see in quite a few palces where the model suddenly gets a harsh edge. I would double check your normals.

3) Lava impact. Its obvious that you dont have smoke for performance reasons, but when you shoot the lava, nothing happens. Its really easy to make new particle effects with editFX Would love to see some impacts

4) Jump pad clipping. You know, you can add a seperate surface to your model's that wont show up in game but are only there for player colision. While most of the time i found it easy to just walk on a pad, i did once or twice find myself getting caught on a surface. If i was you, i would add a simple surface mesh to the pad models with the lower vertex's extruded so that you dont get caught, and instead move straight on.

5) For me, and maybe only me, i find that its a little TOO ambient only lit. I would simply give the rock model material noShadows and noSelfshadow, and then make the lights plotted around the place cast shadows instead. ATM it seems a bit sparse ,not to bad you dont notice it that much, but its running 60FPS locked for me and my machines quite old by todays standards (6800GT 3200 cpu 2gig ram).

6) Ammo entities - Move them up a box or so. ATM, they are doing what some Quake 4 default maps do i.e. sit to close to the ground. Give them the Q3 edge by moving them up

7) Maybe i'm just retarded (Quiet all of you ) but i see no gain for the mega health at all. Its nice that your adding the "risk" and all, but the only way i can get to it safely is with a rocket jump, or taking massive falling damage... or both, lol. Can you not give us some trick jump here, maybe add a few poking out rocks either side so we can make the jump easier with normal jumping...?

8) Again those bloody jump pads colision I just got caught on one (Leading up to RL and HB ammo, and another pad) and fell into the lava

Right ill shush up now and stop being such a pickey bastard Its a good map, one i didn't think would work but was really surprised. Good visuals too, steady frame rate. And its different which is an instant plus. Keep it up

[Hipshot]

Nice nice nice kat.

[Kat]

Ok, played the map, a few issues and things spring to mind:

1) Theres a touch of z-fighting on one of the blocks up top, it seems to pop in/out of view randomly. Its up by the LG.

Found out what was casuing this. Obsidian sent me a screenie showing the same problem; it was a bit of dodgy rendering due to a model origin point being buried in brushwork so it's being fixed atm.

2) Harsh lighting. In some places, the floor will be full bright and the wall next to it will be pitch black. I dunno how you have done this, i'm guessing your smooth model normals are wrong...? Saying that, i can see in quite a few palces where the model suddenly gets a harsh edge. I would double check your normals.

That's how the game handles individual models I'm afraid. Lighting doesn't necesarily carry over to it's neighbour as well as one would like (oh for the want of Q3map2 styled 'phong' shading).

3) Lava impact. Its obvious that you dont have smoke for performance reasons, but when you shoot the lava, nothing happens. Its really easy to make new particle effects with editFX Would love to see some impacts

That's a weapons mod, impact is based on the weapon def in relation to surfaces, and there isn't a setting for 'lava'. We'll have to see what they add to 1.3.

4) Jump pad clipping. You know, you can add a seperate surface to your model's that wont show up in game but are only there for player colision. While most of the time i found it easy to just walk on a pad, i did once or twice find myself getting caught on a surface. If i was you, i would add a simple surface mesh to the pad models with the lower vertex's extruded so that you dont get caught, and instead move straight on.

They do have .cm models, but the problem you're describing was because I didn't make the JP trigger fields big enough. Fixing that now.

5) For me, and maybe only me, i find that its a little TOO ambient only lit. I would simply give the rock model material noShadows and noSelfshadow, and then make the lights plotted around the place cast shadows instead. ATM it seems a bit sparse ,not to bad you dont notice it that much, but its running 60FPS locked for me and my machines quite old by todays standards (6800GT 3200 cpu 2gig ram).

The models do already have noshadows and noselfshadow, obviously shadows were turned off for perfoemance reasons BUT, if people are quite happy to use the console command to turn of shadows then turning the main light back 'on' can be arranged...

6) Ammo entities - Move them up a box or so. ATM, they are doing what some Quake 4 default maps do i.e. sit to close to the ground. Give them the Q3 edge by moving them up

7) Maybe i'm just retarded (Quiet all of you ) but i see no gain for the mega health at all. Its nice that your adding the "risk" and all, but the only way i can get to it safely is with a rocket jump, or taking massive falling damage... or both, lol. Can you not give us some trick jump here, maybe add a few poking out rocks either side so we can make the jump easier with normal jumping...?

I could do yes, but that then means you're able to stay up top get the mega and then trundle off for the red amour, the entrance to which is on the same level. It's placed like that for an 'either/or' decision from the player, either mega or red amour.

8) Again those bloody jump pads colision I just got caught on one (Leading up to RL and HB ammo, and another pad) and fell into the lava

See above

Right ill shush up now and stop being such a pickey bastard Its a good map, one i didn't think would work but was really surprised. Good visuals too, steady frame rate. And its different which is an instant plus. Keep it up

Thanks.

[wviperw]

7) Maybe i'm just retarded (Quiet all of you ) but i see no gain for the mega health at all. Its nice that your adding the "risk" and all, but the only way i can get to it safely is with a rocket jump, or taking massive falling damage... or both, lol. Can you not give us some trick jump here, maybe add a few poking out rocks either side so we can make the jump easier with normal jumping...?

If by "massive falling damage" you mean the default maximum of 10 health, I don't see how that's a huge problem when you're gaining 100 health and denying it from your opponents.

[Kat]

Just an additional note on shadows.. In answer to Odium above, in a word 'no' they won't be added.

Just spent most of today trying to get them to work with the lighting and overall ambience, adding them in now introduces far too much kagarooing of the FPS and changes the placement of some of the lights to the extent that it gives the impression of the map being lit slightly differently, turn off shadows and the lighting looks odd.

I'd much rather have a consistant FPS and lihgting levels.

[pjw]

...It's too disorienting..and just possibly, too huge....

Don't have that said to me very often!

/me avoids the obvious cheap joke...

If by "massive falling damage" you mean the default maximum of 10 health, I don't see how that's a huge problem when you're gaining 100 health and denying it from your opponents.

Yeppers. Also, you can land on a jumppad sort of easily from some MH-gathering directions.

This map kicks ass. I like it even more than your first one--it has more of a massive feel to it, but yeah, it really does shrink after running around a bit--I think it would be really nice tourney, even if it were a tad bigger, and FFA would also work, as long as it's not too many.

I agree with what GODLIKE said about wanting to see some other structure in the midst of the organic, but I also understand your reasons for wanting to avoid that whole headache. Maybe consider a room/hall/something off to the side of the cave area, with a relatively simple transition? You could even mirror the whole map and add a couple of side bits and make an amazing CTF map with some lava + bridges from a middle ground...Okay, I'll shut up.

After running around for a bit, I'm wondering what it would be like with a YA down low somewhere...how about throwing out the GL (it's kinda shit in a map like this) and replacing with a YA? Also how about switching NG and RL? NG feels like it's more off the beaten path from MH<-->RA so moving RL there would encourage a bit more wandering perhaps?

I love the little mostly-hidden nook you can crouch in down low right below MH and wait to rail someone as they jump for it. Dunno if that was intended or not, but it works.

Edit: Re: shadows, it's weird, but I'm normally the first person to get my panties in a bunch when all the shadows are turned off--I was kind of mean to AEon in his thread--but for some reason it looks pretty good in this map. Maybe something about all those rounded surfaces and soft edges makes it look okay? I guess that would be another downside to trying to work in more traditional hard-edged geometry somewhere...

[Kat]

How the feck to you manage to get into that nook?! It's unintentional but that's exactly why it didn't want to go crazy with the player clipping!! That's one hell of a tricky jump to get at :icon28:

I'm toying with the idea of doing a small CTF map next and I had thought of something similar to what you mentioned, I'm not sure yet though as I've got several things running through my head. ;o) But yeah, you basically hit the nail on the head (twice actually - build and shadows); it'll be more problematic to place now than is worth it's addition visually.

What would replace the YA up top if it was moved down below? I can't really find anything that would replace it except one of the powerups? (not quad) But do they work in FFA (not tried). I can certainly swap the nail and rocket as that'd be a good place for the RL, heh.

re : the shadows. Yes, it's the softer lines, at least that's the only thing I've noticed that's significantly different; the map's a bit more polyheavy than is probably necessary as a result of them and making allowence for texture blending, but it makes a big difference overall because of the smoothing (I actually noticed this is Oblivion of all things and then understood 'why').

[pjw]

How the feck to you manage to get into that nook?! It's unintentional but that's exactly why it didn't want to go crazy with the player clipping!! That's one hell of a tricky jump to get at :icon28:

Um.
I think we're talking about different nooks. I'm talking about this one, down at floor level:

A bit of a deathtrap if you're caught there, but still cool.

I'm guessing you're talking about this little tiny ledge?

I managed to land on it and stick it on my sixth try from the ledge to the right there, so yeah, I'm still cool anyway.

What would replace the YA up top if it was moved down below? I can't really find anything that would replace it except one of the powerups? (not quad) But do they work in FFA (not tried). I can certainly swap the nail and rocket as that'd be a good place for the RL, heh.

YA? What YA? Am I on crack?! If you mean RA, then I'd leave it where it is, and add a YA. (Maybe...worth a shot...)

As far as powerups go, you can have anything appear (or not) in any gametype; it's done via filter keys on the items--I'd have to look them up, but it's something like filter_tourney, filter_ffa, etc. set to either 1 or 0...

[Kat]

Ooooh, yes I thought you meant the second one. I didn't even realise that was there until I looked!

[Kat]

See first post above for updated details about BETA 2.

The file size has gone up a little bit because I forgot to include a couple of DDS textures, the file loads a tad quicker now as a result when on the lower settings.

A couple of the images were updated becasue I noticed some errors, including the lava which is now a bit more orangy in colour.

The testserver config file now works properly, I left an old ref in there which meant using "exec kat_q4dm2" from the ingame console didn't do anything. It should work this time.

[Inition]

30mb was no biggie with my old cable connection, with wireless this will be awhile!

[Kat]

30mb was no biggie with my old cable connection, with wireless this will be awhile!

This is probably *THE* biggest problem we're facing right now. A couple of 1024 textures in Q3 is one thing, but then having to add the other layers as well as DDS for load speed and lower quality settings now means we're bloating files up really quickly for relatively little content (a single map).

So what do we do? We could add lower res textures, but then gamers would comment on how low res everything looked. We could use fewer textures, but then gamers would comment that everything looked the same. We could use default assets for everything but gamers would comment that custom maps look like the game.

This is what nextGen means now, modders are quite firmly stuck between a rock and a hard place.

To paraphrase Keanu Reaves "he has a gun to your head, what do you do... what.. do you do?" (shooting the hostage isn't an option )

[Kat]

Just did a test and packed up a version of the map using 512x512 textures for the terrain stuff.. it drops the file size down to a little over 16MB instead of the 30MB mentioned above and that's without any noticeable difference in quality; sure it's not quite as pin sharp as 1024s but the 512s do a good job..

So unless there are serious objections to not using 512s the final release will be using those instead. 30MB is just too big for a single map.

[pjw]

Yeah, for DM maps, I think it's quite reasonable to use 512s. It's a good compromise. Especially since people often turn down the quality for FPS anyway.

I checked out the new beta and I like the changes.

I got this in the console: WARNING: Couldn't load image: textures/kat_q4dm2/crystal_s2 and it doesn't seem to be in the pk4...

It's fun to jump and perch on top of the lamp nearest/under MH--I'm glad you didn't clip it off. It's possible to RJ up to a couple of the other lamps, but it might be fun if more of them were reachable via normal jumps...

[Kat]

Thanks for spotting the texture error. Turns out I forget to update the material file so it was looking for the wrong (missing) texture.

I can probably extend some of the lamps further down but I don't want to do it too much as they're create part of the illusion of height the way they are currently placed. I'll investigate it and see if it looks ok. I have to admit though I starting to 'fiddle' with the map and that's usually a sign of it being done.

[+JuggerNaut+]

30mb was no biggie with my old cable connection, with wireless this will be awhile!

This is probably *THE* biggest problem we're facing right now. A couple of 1024 textures in Q3 is one thing, but then having to add the other layers as well as DDS for load speed and lower quality settings now means we're bloating files up really quickly for relatively little content (a single map).

So what do we do? We could add lower res textures, but then gamers would comment on how low res everything looked. We could use fewer textures, but then gamers would comment that everything looked the same. We could use default assets for everything but gamers would comment that custom maps look like the game.

This is what nextGen means now, modders are quite firmly stuck between a rock and a hard place.

To paraphrase Keanu Reaves "he has a gun to your head, what do you do... what.. do you do?" (shooting the hostage isn't an option )

yeah, i don't see what the big deal is. when i first started playing Q3, i had dialup and downloaded well over 300 custom maps because i was so addicted to playing the newest maps. 30mb is very do-able with today's speeds, wireless or tethered.

people will bitch about visuals before bitching about filesizes.

[Kat]

BETA 3 (final beta) posted above. If everything checks out after this then the map will go final. As always remove the previous beta before testing.

Mucho Thanks in advance. :icon25:

[Kat]

Any takers on the final beta before this goes live? Could do with a quick check if possible to make sure I've not missed anything.