A question for Christian theologists

[seremtan]

Jesus :icon10:

where?

[4days]

you obviously know very little of Christianity

spreading good would do absolutely nothing salvation is determined by believing that Jesus' Resurrection and if you dont believe in that no good deeds will not get you in heaven

when an unsaved does good it has no merit to God so if the Devil did good it definitely will have no merit let alone begin to try to do more good than God. Besides at the end of the day he still goes the hell so whats the point.
heck the mere notion that the all powerful God can be out done is retarded at best. The devil cannot do anything God doesnt allow.

The devil basically is used through god as temptation. He wants to take as many of God's humans to hell with him who God loves more than even angels and help believers to unrighteousness and good allows it. His temptation is on Adam and Eve is what ended the paradise on earth in the first place. God then cursed man to a non-eternal life of hardship. However the son decided to save man for after life on earth. Father/son/holy spirit seen this coming before the earth was even created.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

why ask me?

I was quoting you (well paraphrasing) :icon30:

this reminds me of something

[S@M]

lols gotcha (edit: meaning)

[MKJ]

why ask me?

I was quoting you (well paraphrasing) :icon30:

ah ok
i wasnt sure if you were implying that i myself was one in need of a religious crutch or that you were agreeing with me :icon32:

[S@M]

hey I cant comment on your crotch, never having seen it, but....

[MKJ]

it makes people see God

[GONNAFISTYA]

you obviously know very little of Christianity

spreading good would do absolutely nothing salvation is determined by believing that Jesus' Resurrection and if you dont believe in that no good deeds will not get you in heaven

when an unsaved does good it has no merit to God so if the Devil did good it definitely will have no merit let alone begin to try to do more good than God. Besides at the end of the day he still goes the hell so whats the point.
heck the mere notion that the all powerful God can be out done is retarded at best. The devil cannot do anything God doesnt allow.

The devil basically is used through god as temptation. He wants to take as many of God's humans to hell with him who God loves more than even angels and help believers to unrighteousness and good allows it. His temptation is on Adam and Eve is what ended the paradise on earth in the first place. God then cursed man to a non-eternal life of hardship. However the son decided to save man for after life on earth. Father/son/holy spirit seen this coming before the earth was even created.

Holy fuckin shit.

[Doombrain]

you obviously know very little of Christianity

spreading good would do absolutely nothing salvation is determined by believing that Jesus' Resurrection and if you dont believe in that no good deeds will not get you in heaven

when an unsaved does good it has no merit to God so if the Devil did good it definitely will have no merit let alone begin to try to do more good than God. Besides at the end of the day he still goes the hell so whats the point.
heck the mere notion that the all powerful God can be out done is retarded at best. The devil cannot do anything God doesnt allow.

The devil basically is used through god as temptation. He wants to take as many of God's humans to hell with him who God loves more than even angels and help believers to unrighteousness and good allows it. His temptation is on Adam and Eve is what ended the paradise on earth in the first place. God then cursed man to a non-eternal life of hardship. However the son decided to save man for after life on earth. Father/son/holy spirit seen this coming before the earth was even created.

ban this idiot

[Richard_guy]

well from what I understand the idea of hell is moreless just the absence of god, this is something even jesus has experienced when he was paying for all of mans sins on the cross, he apparently said "my god why have you forsaken me"it was then that he was completely with out the preseence of god. That being said what lucifer did was basicly say he was hot shit and possably better then god and had a bunch of the angels belive him/worship him hence why they got cast out of heaven.

The idea is that satan now has free reign over our world and because of whats happening here he actually thinks he is winning againts god eccept for the obvious fact that he cant win god being omnipotent and all, the long and the short of this is that like everything else this is all part of "gods big plan" where satan will apparently actually see his wrong doings and that his isnt as shit hot as he may think.

so to answer your question GONNAFISTYA if this was all real satan is "winning" in his mind so theres no need to change anything or do anything diffrent.
The ultamate payback would be to cast god out of heaven at least thats the way satan sees it.

by the way im no christian i just picked up a few things on the way.

[Tsakali_]

my problem with religion and a deity in general is that every time i try to use logical thought process I hit a brick wall, matter of fact it makes me feel incompetent... nothing personal richard but to use you as an example...wtf are you talking about? surely you didn't make that reply through a mindful process, surely it's just a confused recollection of some crap you read or heard from a source equally as confused.

every time i try reading the bible I get about 2 pages of reading in which in their own right deserve their own books length worth of explanation and justification, such rediculous claims.
Reading the bible has been one of the most self destructive things I have ever attempted.

It's hard for me not to get emotional when I speak of such things

[GONNAFISTYA]

the long and the short of this is that like everything else this is all part of "gods big plan" where satan will apparently actually see his wrong doings and that his isnt as shit hot as he may think.

so to answer your question GONNAFISTYA if this was all real satan is "winning" in his mind so theres no need to change anything or do anything diffrent.
The ultamate payback would be to cast god out of heaven at least thats the way satan sees it.

I don't think this really gets at what I'm talking about, so I'll rephrase....

God made the Earth as his set-piece in this grand universe of his. He decided to put man on Earth (having already created a specific paradise for them) which is supposedly the center of God's universe - even more important than Heaven it would seem.

Satan - if you use the same requirements of any deity - is already ominpotent....so it's not like Satan has anything to be ashamed about in that department. He's obviously no slouch.

But the thing is that Satan already has power over God's "paradise" - and has tried to fuck it up - but hasn't really achieved a hell of alot in 6000 years. He's made some crazy people to a few things and has garnered enough of a reputation through his deeds...but for Satan that shouldn't be enough. Sure...Satan wants to get back into Heaven...but from what I've seen, Heaven must be a fucking boring place since nobody seems to really talk about it...including God. It's quite obvious that all the "interesting stuff" is going on here.

And God is failing at this game.

I think it would be a monumental achievement for Satan to do what God couldn't.

[Wabbit]

God made the Earth as his set-piece in this grand universe of his. ....

It's quite obvious that all the "interesting stuff" is going on here.

I don't see how this can really be discussed GKY because you would have to find a group of people that is willing to accept your premise, i.e., "God made the Earth as his set-piece in this grand universe of his."

Since I don't accept your premise, I can't reach any conclusion that I would be willing to debate.

Do remember though that Satan is a created being and is not omnipotent. To me, it's real basic. I don't buy into the whole horror-story version of satan's intentions. All that needs to be done is to keep you distracted. You don't even need to be focused on "evil"...you just need to be kept busy so you don't seek anything beyond what you can immediately see. And it is so easy to be distracted.

I'm curious. Why are you so sure all the interesting suff is happening here?

[GONNAFISTYA]

I don't see how this can really be discussed GKY because you would have to find a group of people that is willing to accept your premise, i.e., "God made the Earth as his set-piece in this grand universe of his."

Since I don't accept your premise, I can't reach any conclusion that I would be willing to debate.

My premise ISN'T that Earth is the center-piece. My premise is that Satan would have bragging rights if he could do what God has failed to do....make Earth a paradise again. Or maybe I misunderstand what you're getting at since you seem to be missing my larger point entirely.

Do you not see the implications of this if it were possible for Satan to show "the flock" that he can do things God can't?

Do remember though that Satan is a created being and is not omnipotent. To me, it's real basic. I don't buy into the whole horror-story version of satan's intentions. All that needs to be done is to keep you distracted. You don't even need to be focused on "evil"...you just need to be kept busy so you don't seek anything beyond what you can immediately see. And it is so easy to be distracted.

While I disagree with you about Satan being omnipotent, I'll admit that his power isn't limitless...but damned fucking close compared to you and I.

As to the rest about distractions and shit I have no idea what you mean. Distractions are not what I'm talking about...I'm talking about Satan making a concerted effort and letting everyone know that "saving the world" is his doing...not God's.

I'm curious. Why are you so sure all the interesting suff is happening here?

Quite frankly because 99% of the Bible DOESN'T talk about Heaven. And the obvious fact that all of God's supposed interests are here on Earth....including his battle with Satan.

[Wabbit]

Quite frankly because 99% of the Bible DOESN'T talk about Heaven. And the obvious fact that all of God's supposed interests are here on Earth....including his battle with Satan.

I have to leave for work so I'll get to your other points later. But consider this. What is heaven? What is heaven for me but be an absolute hell for someone else. Defining heaven would absolutely determine who would be going there. Wouldn't it? Isn't that kindof counterproductive if you want everyone to be there?

[Richard_guy]

my problem with religion and a deity in general is that every time i try to use logical thought process I hit a brick wall, matter of fact it makes me feel incompetent... nothing personal richard but to use you as an example...wtf are you talking about? surely you didn't make that reply through a mindful process, surely it's just a confused recollection of some crap you read or heard from a source equally as confused.

every time i try reading the bible I get about 2 pages of reading in which in their own right deserve their own books length worth of explanation and justification, such rediculous claims.
Reading the bible has been one of the most self destructive things I have ever attempted.

It's hard for me not to get emotional when I speak of such things

what i said in my post wasnt just some mindless crap more less a kinda bible story, GONNAFISTYA asked a question assuming that religion was somewhat true and under the same assumtion i gave a answer. no offecne taken by the way

edit @-GKY you see in my other post i said what ever "anyone does its supposed to be part of gods "big plan"apparently, so my point is regardless of anything satan does he can never have bragging rights because its actually gods doing. meaning god cant lose the game cause no matter what happens he comes out on top.

which as retarded as it sounds is the whole everyone is a vessel for gods will story. Hence why all good deeds are gods doing and IMO all evil deeds are also him but thats not the point.

[GONNAFISTYA]

I just wanted to make clear that I'm not here to discuss the mainstay of the mythology where Satan is evil and makes people do bad things and wants to get into Heaven. It's well known that Satan is dicking with humanity to get back at God and that Satan is pissed at God more than humanity. Satan doesn't really give a shit about humanity, And what I'm getting at has nothing to do with Satan trying to get into Heaven. He's just out to one-up daddy in the eyes of daddy's sheep and the rest of the universe as a way of revenge.

I'm simply asking if it's in Satan's interests to prove to humanity that he's "the better man" by being more benevolent than God...even if it were phony? Sheep are sheep after all. Would it not be a viable idea to show that faith is worth having again, but faith in Satan rather than God, someone actually worthy of worship who listens and cares for his "children?

This would take at least 1000 years to accomplish but if I was Satan, proving God wrong would be a satisfying revenge.

Dunno. It's just something me and a friend were discussing the other day.

[Richard_guy]

I just wanted to make clear that I'm not here to discuss the mainstay of the mythology where Satan is evil and makes people do bad things and wants to get into Heaven. It's well known that Satan is dicking with humanity to get back at God and that Satan is pissed at God more than humanity. Satan doesn't really give a shit about humanity, And what I'm getting at has nothing to do with Satan trying to get into Heaven. He's just out to one-up daddy in the eyes of daddy's sheep and the rest of the universe as a way of revenge.

I'm simply asking if it's in Satan's interests to prove to humanity that he's "the better man" by being more benevolent than God? Would it not be a viable idea to show that faith is worth having again, but faith in Satan rather than God, someone actually worthy of worship who listens and cares for his "children?

This would take at least 1000 years to accomplish but if I was Satan, proving God wrong would be a satisfying revenge.

Dunno. It's just something me and a friend were discussing the other day.

I can see where your going with this, but the christian argument is so lame and has god as a always right answer you can never argue anything cause your always gonna end up wrong to them.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Probably. But I enjoy trying. :icon26:

[Richard_guy]

Probably. But I enjoy trying. :icon26:

it is quit fun because it just reminds you of there blindband wagon faith. Although in my expeariance i have met a smart christian or two with a fair bit of information so they have a half decent answer so most questions pending you opinion.

If you think the bible in hog wash then anything they say is retarded and if your christian then anything we say is plain ignorant.

[Wabbit]

I'm simply asking if it's in Satan's interests to prove to humanity that he's "the better man" by being more benevolent than God...even if it were phony? ...

but if I was Satan, proving God wrong would be a satisfying revenge.

Maybe satan tried it and discovered people are just as fickle when it came to following him as they are in following God.

It probably required waaaay more effort than the payoff was worth.

[GONNAFISTYA]

If I was Satan and I was more popular than God, I'd own.

[S@M]

Would he still be Satan if he did something good?
What if Satan is not capable of doing good? What if he already thought it through and said "nah"

[stocktroll]

the long and the short of this is that like everything else this is all part of "gods big plan" where satan will apparently actually see his wrong doings and that his isnt as shit hot as he may think.

so to answer your question GONNAFISTYA if this was all real satan is "winning" in his mind so theres no need to change anything or do anything diffrent.
The ultamate payback would be to cast god out of heaven at least thats the way satan sees it.

I don't think this really gets at what I'm talking about, so I'll rephrase....

God made the Earth as his set-piece in this grand universe of his. He decided to put man on Earth (having already created a specific paradise for them) which is supposedly the center of God's universe - even more important than Heaven it would seem.

Satan - if you use the same requirements of any deity - is already ominpotent....so it's not like Satan has anything to be ashamed about in that department. He's obviously no slouch.

But the thing is that Satan already has power over God's "paradise" - and has tried to fuck it up - but hasn't really achieved a hell of alot in 6000 years. He's made some crazy people to a few things and has garnered enough of a reputation through his deeds...but for Satan that shouldn't be enough. Sure...Satan wants to get back into Heaven...but from what I've seen, Heaven must be a fucking boring place since nobody seems to really talk about it...including God. It's quite obvious that all the "interesting stuff" is going on here.

And God is failing at this game.

I think it would be a monumental achievement for Satan to do what God couldn't.

lol homo alert
forget your stupid argument, your knowledge of god and the devil according to Christianity is way skewed to begin with

[Nightshade]

You don't need to preface your posts with "homo alert", we know it's you.