Lol, Britney tries to Spear special K's car

[[xeno]Julios]

However, when looking at, for example, professional athletes, it's not uncommon for them to reach the goal on pure willpower, even if their body has practically given up. Don't you feel that if someone is headstrong and determined enough that they can fight an addiction as well? I'm not saying that this is definitely the case, but it's a line of thought to follow.

Being able to milk the body for its last drops certainly seems to require what one might call a strong will.

I think a strong will is probably highly correlated with an ability to maintain high levels of attention for a period of time, something that varies from person to person, and is a useful skill to be cultivated.

There are a couple things things that should be said though:

One is that if we are to view it as a cognitive skill, then that changes the way we judge people. We tend to fault people for having a weak will, when in fact, at that point in time, they simply do not have the skill to be able to exert such a will.

The second point is that i'm not convinced that the use of this skill should be the front line of attack in dealing with an addiction or dysfunctional behavioural pattern (see the Gollwitzer reference in the quoted passage for an example).

It almost certainly has its place - perhaps in overcoming a transient craving - and there may be people who can overcome huge obstacles through exercise of this skill alone.

A more sustainable solution is to reprogram the mind in a more systemic way. Bad habits and addictions are in some way a manifestation of positive feedback systems - vicious cycles of cognition, affect, and behaviour.

A systemic solution is thus needed - one which can actively reshape the dynamical space so that there is no longer an "attractor" associated with the undesired behaviour (sorry if this paragraph doesn't make sense).

A strong will may be able to prevent the brain from falling into that attractor, but a strong will alone will not get rid of the attractor.

Think of a metal marble rolling around a bowl - the path of the marble at the basin of the bowl could be understood as the attractor. Think of will power as a magnet which can stop the marble from reaching the bottom of the bowl. Useful for a while, but wouldn't it be more powerful to also be able to reshape the bowl?

I should also note that I haven't studied this particular issue in depth - my knowledge of addiction is fairly limited, so I'm drawing upon limited research here.

[MKJ]

this is a good time to start the Julios Drinking Game

[[xeno]Julios]

i think i should go to bed now!

[R00k]

Hey, I was out after the addiction/disease talk. :icon32:

[Eraser]

Interesting how a thread about Britney Spears turned out into... well... this

[Nightshade]

After reading rook's last two posts, I'm more inclinced to agree with rook and nightshade on the disease issue, if only because of the social connotations of the word.

Alcohol certainly is an addictive drug, just like other addictive drugs - it stimulates the release of dopamine, a neurotransmitter involved in the reward pathways of the brain.

It has severe withdrawal symptoms.

How is this not physically addictive?


Also, will power doesn't seem to be a very useful construct - it's part of our language, but it doesn't seem to map onto any process which our minds actually employ.

You won't see addiction therapists recommending that addicts simply build up their will power or just try harder. In many cases, such advice can actually be counter productive.

I didn't overcome my nicotine addiction by will power - i came over it by careful reflection, and careful planning. Will power didn't really factor into it.

Ok, it stimulates dopamine release. Are you trying to argue that it has the same addiction potential as cocaine? Heroin? You'll never sell me on that. Do you think that we'd find that if other drugs were legal that we'd see equal numbers of recreational heroin users? I'm not saying that I'm the all-knowing authority on addiction, I just think that we live in a society populated by extremely fucked up people and we as a culture have become fond of abdicating personal responsibility.

I find your willpower argument to be patently ridiculous. Unless you're being prescribed a drug to modify a behavior, you're doing it all on your own. Willpower, free will, careful planning, careful reflection, what the hell is the difference?

[[xeno]Julios]

Ok, it stimulates dopamine release. Are you trying to argue that it has the same addiction potential as cocaine? Heroin? You'll never sell me on that. Do you think that we'd find that if other drugs were legal that we'd see equal numbers of recreational heroin users? I'm not saying that I'm the all-knowing authority on addiction, I just think that we live in a society populated by extremely fucked up people and we as a culture have become fond of abdicating personal responsibility.

Where did I say it had the same addiction potential as cocaine? I said it can be physically addictive - I didn't make any claims as to the strength of the addiction. For all I know, it may indeed be as addictive as cocaine in some people, but that wasn't what i was claiming at all.

I find your willpower argument to be patently ridiculous. Unless you're being prescribed a drug to modify a behavior, you're doing it all on your own. Willpower, free will, careful planning, careful reflection, what the hell is the difference?

Did you read the excerpt I quoted from Perkins? Or the discussion between Eraser, MQ and myself? The difference is explored in some depth.

[MKJ]

Interesting how a thread about Britney Spears turned out into... well... this

jules registered

[Nightshade]

I asked you in order to compare your perceptions of the addiction potential. I didn't say that it was your viewpoint.

I just read that excerpt and given that the author doesn't explain his concept of self-regulation, I can't help but think that it's an artificially created semantic difference. I think that in the context of this discussion it boils down to the same thing: You are either taking a medication to combat an addiction or you are fighting it through modification of your own behaviors.

edit: Goddamn Dutcheez and their post interrupting culture. :icon33:

[bikkeldesnikkel]

Also, will power doesn't seem to be a very useful construct - it's part of our language, but it doesn't seem to map onto any process which our minds actually employ.

You won't see addiction therapists recommending that addicts simply build up their will power or just try harder. In many cases, such advice can actually be counter productive.

I didn't overcome my nicotine addiction by will power - i came over it by careful reflection, and careful planning. Will power didn't really factor into it.

It is indeed tricky to define will, seeing the definition

will2 /wɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wil] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, willed, will·ing.
–noun 1. the faculty of conscious and especially of deliberate action; the power of control the mind has over its own actions: the freedom of the will.

Since we don't know what consciousness is.

I think what is meant by willpower in this case is the ability to overpower the non-rational parts of your brain with your ratio. So you did overcome your addiction by willpower simply by converting your rational thought (reflection/planning) into action.

[CaseDogg]

bitch crazy

[Duhard]

Anyone remembers when she claimed she was proud to be a virgin a few years ago? Oh how the mighty have fallen

[werldhed]

She was never mighty.

[[xeno]Julios]

I just read that excerpt and given that the author doesn't explain his concept of self-regulation, I can't help but think that it's an artificially created semantic difference.

I see where you're going, but there is a unique sense that people associate with willpower vs. self regulation.

I think that in the context of this discussion it boils down to the same thing: You are either taking a medication to combat an addiction or you are fighting it through modification of your own behaviors.

We agree here, although I would add external environmental influences to the mix.

[[xeno]Julios]

I think what is meant by willpower in this case is the ability to overpower the non-rational parts of your brain with your ratio. So you did overcome your addiction by willpower simply by converting your rational thought (reflection/planning) into action.

interesting point. It's not quite that simple though, since a lot of our rationality emerges directly from unconscious processes.

[Nightshade]

We agree here, although I would add external environmental influences to the mix.

I would agree, but that only serves to determine the degree of difficulty with which one must cope in defeating the addiction.

[[xeno]Julios]

We agree here, although I would add external environmental influences to the mix.

I would agree, but that only serves to determine the degree of difficulty with which one must cope in defeating the addiction.

not quite. External environmental influences can play a much more sophisticated role than acting as a general parameter which makes everything more or less difficult.

As an extreme example, consider an addiction clinic which monitors the addict and intervenes in a specific way depending on the behaviour or state of the addict.

[Duhard]

SO WHAT EXACTLY IS THE TRAILER PARK WHORE ADDICTED TO ANYHOW???

Pills, coke and booze.

[Nightshade]

We agree here, although I would add external environmental influences to the mix.

I would agree, but that only serves to determine the degree of difficulty with which one must cope in defeating the addiction.

not quite. External environmental influences can play a much more sophisticated role than acting as a general parameter which makes everything more or less difficult.

As an extreme example, consider an addiction clinic which monitors the addict and intervenes in a specific way depending on the behaviour or state of the addict.

I fail to see how that mitigates my point.

[[xeno]Julios]

it seemed as if you were saying the environment was only important insofar as it determined the general difficulty involved in overcoming an addiction.

[Nightshade]

I feel that it can exacerbate or ameliorate the difficulty involved.

[[xeno]Julios]

I feel that it can exacerbate or ameliorate the difficulty involved.

sure it can - but so can drugs and self regulation. All I'm saying is that the environment is incredibly important.

For example, there are many strategies that can be taught to addicts to regulate their own minds and bodies - metacognitive strategies for example.

You often need an external agent to teach these strategies - so this form of education is part of the environment.

An environmental intervention doesn't only mean "when walking home from work, choose a route that doesn't go by your favourite bar".

[Eraser]

Apparantly it's post-natal depression now :olo:
Oh, and K-fed wants Brit back

[Nightshade]

I feel that it can exacerbate or ameliorate the difficulty involved.

sure it can - but so can drugs and self regulation. All I'm saying is that the environment is incredibly important.

For example, there are many strategies that can be taught to addicts to regulate their own minds and bodies - metacognitive strategies for example.

You often need an external agent to teach these strategies - so this form of education is part of the environment.

An environmental intervention doesn't only mean "when walking home from work, choose a route that doesn't go by your favourite bar".

Jesus, could you sound any more patronizing?

[[xeno]Julios]

Jesus, could you sound any more patronizing?

huh?

I thought we were having a discussion here about the role of environment. I'm not intending to be condescending in any way.

have i misunderstood your point about the role of environment?

I took your last post as meaning:

"the defining/primary role of environment, when talking about overcoming an addiction, is to make the process easier or harder. Medication and self-regulation/willpower/etc. are the actual agents that carry out this process, and the environment just modulates their efficacy".

I strongly disagree with this, so if you didn't mean it this way, ignore the "patronizing" post.