Ok Survivor mentioned making it a CTF and v1l3 mentioned to make it something not thought of before to make it origonal and dichtfux mentioned agreeing on a texture set.
Well how about this?
We do a Q3/Q3:TA CTF PTM.
Instead of each contributing mapper doing a room or area each one creates a different "level" with entry and exit teleporters to the next and previous level.
Each mappers portion would be in a totally seperate box in the void. Simmilar the three seperate sections to Q3:TA Vortex Portal.
Stay with all the normal parameters that mappers tend to follow when making a CTF map. Things like maintaining a cretian level of symmetry and balance.
Agree on a setting or type of map and texture set and models to be used. Perhaps a space setting and textures with blue and red tinted glass and tech textures and bot lamps. (this is just an example)
There sould be perhaps 5 mappers and 5 levels. The two bases a middle ground and two transition levels and all portions would be of equal importantce.
Those who do the transition levels would have the burden of making sure that gameplay in those areas stay exciting and flow well and leave you with a feeling of "I am close, but I could still lose it!" or "I am out of the base, but not out of the woods!". The base mappers would have to make sure that getting in to get the flag and getting out with it as well as guarding the base are tough yet possible and interesting. The mapper for the middle ground would need to make sure that that there is great flow from one team's side to the other team's side and make sure what they map can work to pull all the other work together. So no one mapper would be seen as doing a less important part.
No need for each base and each transition level to be a mirror of each other. Just make sure there is a acceptible level of balance and equality by agreeing on a set of paramaters or rules before starting.
Anyway. So how does this sound?
Shared Map
Would it not be better if the first order of biz is that everyone chip in on a layout, then you pass out the different areas of responsibilities for the map?
Q3Map2 2516 -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map_2.5.16_win32_x86.zip
Q3Map2 FS_20g -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map2_fs_20g.rar
GtkRadiant 140 -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/GtkRadiantSetup-1.4.0-Q3RTCWET.exe
Q3Map2 FS_20g -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map2_fs_20g.rar
GtkRadiant 140 -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/GtkRadiantSetup-1.4.0-Q3RTCWET.exe
Well that would keep everything nice and tidy, but who needs reason when chaos rulez?
lol just kidding.
I guess I was back to thinking of each mapper being inspired and building off of the last mappers work. A "Ooo. His work is cool. Now where can I go with this?" kind of thing, but if folks prefer to plan it all out then yea that would be the place to start.
Agree on a theme and layout.
lol just kidding.
I guess I was back to thinking of each mapper being inspired and building off of the last mappers work. A "Ooo. His work is cool. Now where can I go with this?" kind of thing, but if folks prefer to plan it all out then yea that would be the place to start.
Agree on a theme and layout.
Uh, well....good luck with that. :shrug:
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
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zZCastleZz
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:06 am
hmm
This is how it works usually on a professional project. Maybe this will help. I wont be able to participate on something like this because I'm already working on something of my own.
Step one:
Everyone together has a meeting to discuss important aspects of the level.
Think of a theme first and try to nail down the setting with concept art. You will be deciding what colors will be used and the general style of flow. This is important for the level designer so he can create a proper blockmesh that goes with the them of the level so its easier for environmental artists to make things look pretty.
=======================================
Level designer: Base functionality
Start off with layout.
If you can make the level fun when it is a bunch of purple boxes then that is more than enough. This should also be fully playable and have geometry that at least goes with the theme and setting. Basic shapes of rooms and reasonably well blocked out areas. Do this with the mindset that others will make it all better. Everything should be place holder at this point. The more place holder stuff that other people can go in and just replace later with out touching level geometry the better. All of your focus should be on game play and making things functional and fun.
This also includes placement of hint brushes area portals zones portals ect. As a level designer you aren't often referred to as a technical artist for nothing. Occlusion culling is a big part of the level designers responsibility.
Scripting is also a big part of the level designers job too. If there isnt a dedicated coder to do the higher quality scripting then the level designer is responsible for high quality scripting. If there is a coder type person available then the level designer only needs to place hooks in the level that someone else can come in and easily code in the more advanced sequence at a later time. A hook is nothing more than a object or sequence that is created as simple as possible with only functionality in mind. Or in some cases a hook is a something that calls for a file that doesn't yet exist and other people can quickly just make a file and place it in the correct location and have it functional from the start.
If I create a giant room with a ASE model block in the center of it, that is a hook. That is my way of telling the artist. "Put something cool here" lol..
Level designers are god of all things hook. You are the hooker lol..
The further a level designer can go with a level and leaving proper opening for everyone with clear asset task lists the better. In an ideal world the level designer would block out an entire level, make a bunch of place holder textures, make a bunch of place holder models, and place a bunch of particle and sound emitters, script a bunch of basic hooks for code/script, leaving everyone else with a perfect asset and task list to do at their leisure. This never happens but it is something to try for lol..
=====================================
Environment artist: Art pass 1
Begin designing textures, and set piece models that go with the geometry created by the level designer.
Artists are also in charge of particle emitters and special effects placement.
Artists will often need to work with the coder/scripter to make special effects that are called during scripted sequences.
Sometimes depending on the tools or pipeline artists need to get their hands dirty with the level editing tools to make adjustments. Your sole goal as artist is to bring the scene together while working closely with the level designer. Changing color of lighting and adding new set peices and things of that nature are part of the job.
Often times the artist will ask the designer to make changes to allow for the level to look better. A good artist and designer working together well can make a break a level.
It is also a great help if the artist creates art levels that are nothing more than just examples of all of the art that has been created. This is useful for the coder/scripter and the sound artist when it comes to making intricate pieces of art act and sound correctly. This isn't always necessary but it is often very helpful to everyone on the project. Document your work or it risks falling through the cracks.
========================================
Code/scripting: Code pass 1
In all of the situations where a level designer has placed hooks it is your job to make the sequences pretty.
You must work closely with the artist for not only assets but for particle emitters and things of that nature that must be called and used during complex scripting events.
Much like the level designer the scripter will often find himself/herself placing hooks in his code for both the artist and sound artist.
============================================
Sound Artist: Sound pass 1
As sound designer your job is to work with the level designer and coders to have them place sound hooks in all of the places in the game as possible. If a menu changes on the hud have the coder make it so a sound is called. If the environmental artist makes a rock falling animation properly hooked up then you should have a cool test level to where you can create the sound for it.
If the level designer didn't go in and place sound emitters for the sound designer then it is your job to do it all from scratch. Open up the level and place ambient sounds in yourself. If the tools you are working with have a layer type set up like 3dsmax, UED 2007, or Hammer then you should place all of your ambient sounds in single layer and save it out as a separate level. You can then hand the ambient sounds off to the level designer to copy and paste into the level when he gets a chance.
I didn't bother to mention cinematic pipelines...
Clearly there would need to be a lot of give and take but most of the time the above is how it goes on larger projects.
This is how it works usually on a professional project. Maybe this will help. I wont be able to participate on something like this because I'm already working on something of my own.
Step one:
Everyone together has a meeting to discuss important aspects of the level.
Think of a theme first and try to nail down the setting with concept art. You will be deciding what colors will be used and the general style of flow. This is important for the level designer so he can create a proper blockmesh that goes with the them of the level so its easier for environmental artists to make things look pretty.
=======================================
Level designer: Base functionality
Start off with layout.
If you can make the level fun when it is a bunch of purple boxes then that is more than enough. This should also be fully playable and have geometry that at least goes with the theme and setting. Basic shapes of rooms and reasonably well blocked out areas. Do this with the mindset that others will make it all better. Everything should be place holder at this point. The more place holder stuff that other people can go in and just replace later with out touching level geometry the better. All of your focus should be on game play and making things functional and fun.
This also includes placement of hint brushes area portals zones portals ect. As a level designer you aren't often referred to as a technical artist for nothing. Occlusion culling is a big part of the level designers responsibility.
Scripting is also a big part of the level designers job too. If there isnt a dedicated coder to do the higher quality scripting then the level designer is responsible for high quality scripting. If there is a coder type person available then the level designer only needs to place hooks in the level that someone else can come in and easily code in the more advanced sequence at a later time. A hook is nothing more than a object or sequence that is created as simple as possible with only functionality in mind. Or in some cases a hook is a something that calls for a file that doesn't yet exist and other people can quickly just make a file and place it in the correct location and have it functional from the start.
If I create a giant room with a ASE model block in the center of it, that is a hook. That is my way of telling the artist. "Put something cool here" lol..
Level designers are god of all things hook. You are the hooker lol..
The further a level designer can go with a level and leaving proper opening for everyone with clear asset task lists the better. In an ideal world the level designer would block out an entire level, make a bunch of place holder textures, make a bunch of place holder models, and place a bunch of particle and sound emitters, script a bunch of basic hooks for code/script, leaving everyone else with a perfect asset and task list to do at their leisure. This never happens but it is something to try for lol..
=====================================
Environment artist: Art pass 1
Begin designing textures, and set piece models that go with the geometry created by the level designer.
Artists are also in charge of particle emitters and special effects placement.
Artists will often need to work with the coder/scripter to make special effects that are called during scripted sequences.
Sometimes depending on the tools or pipeline artists need to get their hands dirty with the level editing tools to make adjustments. Your sole goal as artist is to bring the scene together while working closely with the level designer. Changing color of lighting and adding new set peices and things of that nature are part of the job.
Often times the artist will ask the designer to make changes to allow for the level to look better. A good artist and designer working together well can make a break a level.
It is also a great help if the artist creates art levels that are nothing more than just examples of all of the art that has been created. This is useful for the coder/scripter and the sound artist when it comes to making intricate pieces of art act and sound correctly. This isn't always necessary but it is often very helpful to everyone on the project. Document your work or it risks falling through the cracks.
========================================
Code/scripting: Code pass 1
In all of the situations where a level designer has placed hooks it is your job to make the sequences pretty.
You must work closely with the artist for not only assets but for particle emitters and things of that nature that must be called and used during complex scripting events.
Much like the level designer the scripter will often find himself/herself placing hooks in his code for both the artist and sound artist.
============================================
Sound Artist: Sound pass 1
As sound designer your job is to work with the level designer and coders to have them place sound hooks in all of the places in the game as possible. If a menu changes on the hud have the coder make it so a sound is called. If the environmental artist makes a rock falling animation properly hooked up then you should have a cool test level to where you can create the sound for it.
If the level designer didn't go in and place sound emitters for the sound designer then it is your job to do it all from scratch. Open up the level and place ambient sounds in yourself. If the tools you are working with have a layer type set up like 3dsmax, UED 2007, or Hammer then you should place all of your ambient sounds in single layer and save it out as a separate level. You can then hand the ambient sounds off to the level designer to copy and paste into the level when he gets a chance.
I didn't bother to mention cinematic pipelines...
Clearly there would need to be a lot of give and take but most of the time the above is how it goes on larger projects.
Last edited by zZCastleZz on Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
-The Castle
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zZCastleZz
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:06 am
Oh and one more thing..
If you are going to work with a small team of people, Allways look for a file sharing program of some sort where people are able to check in and check out assets as they work on them.
Makes the entire process go much more smoothly.
IIR Source safe has a free demo that allows up to 2 or 3 clients at a time. Something like that would be invaluable for small projects over the internet.
If you are going to work with a small team of people, Allways look for a file sharing program of some sort where people are able to check in and check out assets as they work on them.
Makes the entire process go much more smoothly.
IIR Source safe has a free demo that allows up to 2 or 3 clients at a time. Something like that would be invaluable for small projects over the internet.
-The Castle
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zZCastleZz
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:06 am
LOL!!!wattro wrote:wow i would hate to see what a professional project consists of... =)zZCastleZz wrote:hmm
This is how it works usually on a unprofessional project...
yeah hehe this is what happens when you grab a bunch of people off the street and just tell em to make a game LOL...
I'm not sure how that happened! hahaha
I fixed it.. should read "professional" lol..
-The Castle
Thank goodness I was about to say I'll get right on that as soon as I enroll and graduate from MIT and DeVry.zZCastleZz wrote:I fixed it.. should read "professional" lol..
Anyway your explination of the industry model sounds like it would work great for me on a large project because I love coming up with a great general design and dealing with good gameplay and flow and general item placement, but I hate doing the detailed stuff like creating little trims and archways and things that make the game nice to look at and I am in no way a great coder or the best scripter.
Uh, well....good luck with that. :shrug:
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
and this is why the industry model was suggested in the first place - some of you are better at and enjoy certain things more (like lighting and details) and some of you are better at and enjoy other things more (like gameplay and balancing).
it's not really as scary as castle's post indicates. using fancy check-in/check-out solutions is cool, but that luxury isn't available to everyone. a lot of those systems described would be overkill for a simple pass the map.
simply finding a webhost who can hold all the assets and keeping track of who is doing what is enough. all you need is someone to sync it up frequently (eg: project lead or tech dude). you can mimic a checkin/out system by merely keeping a web log of who is doing what
following castle's advice, you would have the gameplay guys hammer out a layout over the first week, and in the meantime, having the level reviewed by everyone, discussing ideas and features, and build in immediate feedback.
it's not really as scary as castle's post indicates. using fancy check-in/check-out solutions is cool, but that luxury isn't available to everyone. a lot of those systems described would be overkill for a simple pass the map.
simply finding a webhost who can hold all the assets and keeping track of who is doing what is enough. all you need is someone to sync it up frequently (eg: project lead or tech dude). you can mimic a checkin/out system by merely keeping a web log of who is doing what
following castle's advice, you would have the gameplay guys hammer out a layout over the first week, and in the meantime, having the level reviewed by everyone, discussing ideas and features, and build in immediate feedback.
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zZCastleZz
- Posts: 58
- Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:06 am
wattro wrote:it's not really as scary as castle's post indicates. using fancy check-in/check-out solutions is cool, but that luxury isn't available to everyone. a lot of those systems described would be overkill for a simple pass the map.
This is true hehe
Yeah it would be overkill for smaller stuff for sure.
Maybe still good practice? nah its community stuff go ahead do it how you want!
The above description is also more or less only something you see with complex single player stuff. Even with professional projects I find multiplayer tends to have more loose pipelines than a single player campaign.
Actually, the above method is for everyone to all work at the same time. the designer lays the ground work and leaves hooks and place holder content for the artist to replace and pretty up. Its a method where once things begin moving and brushes are placed everyone else is set into motion too.wattro wrote:following castle's advice, you would have the gameplay guys hammer out a layout over the first week, and in the meantime, having the level reviewed by everyone, discussing ideas and features, and build in immediate feedback.
However what you said would possibly work even better. Its hard to say. IMO sometimes it kind of sucks the fun out of a project when its all about meetings and nitpicking. Its a preference I think.
Also my advice isn't really advice for what you should do for a pass the map activity. You don't need as much coordination for smaller projects and it would possibly be a bad idea to follow a basic industry model pipeline. Unless your goal is to learn what it is like to work in a situation like that. Then yeah.. a full scale Single player pack for Quake 4 it would certainly be a good idea to take it seriously with a larger scale project perspective.
My advice would be to come up with a strategy that fits your current teams making. So once you know who wants to take part then you can begin to think of how you will divide tasks and what your pipeline will be. I merely meant the above post to be a point of reference. Not something I recommend following to a T.
If your team is designer heavy: Modular art and reusable content make more levels.
If your team is Artist heavy: More unique art and set pieces in addition to a texture packs new guis. one extremely pretty level.
If your team is coder heavy: Make a mod team, seriously this is rare and you shouldn't just make a multiplayer map lol..
I'm kind of ranting again....
Edit: Reading this over again this morning I think I was missing the point of what Pass the map is really about. XD...
-The Castle
I thought it would be fun to see what would come out of a few mappers getting together and adding onto a single map. I didn't care what it would end up looking like. I actually expected it to be a strange mash of styles.
I was just interested in seeing what kind of environments and transitions and flow they would create from having to lead off of the last mapper when I came up with the idea.
Then when I was told that this kind of thing already existed here I checked out past stuff about PTM.
I done a site search on PTM to learn more about it after I was told that it was an event here at Q3W and from what I have read so far it seems to be a few mappers getting together and simply building a map for fun. Each mapper adding their own style to the map within a set of texture and theme boundries.
Sounds like a lot of fun to me. As long as no one gets angry or critical about what someone else done or what the next person does.
I was just interested in seeing what kind of environments and transitions and flow they would create from having to lead off of the last mapper when I came up with the idea.
Then when I was told that this kind of thing already existed here I checked out past stuff about PTM.
I done a site search on PTM to learn more about it after I was told that it was an event here at Q3W and from what I have read so far it seems to be a few mappers getting together and simply building a map for fun. Each mapper adding their own style to the map within a set of texture and theme boundries.
Sounds like a lot of fun to me. As long as no one gets angry or critical about what someone else done or what the next person does.
Uh, well....good luck with that. :shrug:
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
Wouldn't it be more productive to aim to produce a good map with individuals working on their specialisms than to make a mishmash of areas? There are plenty of maps that aren't useful for anything already while there are very few even decent CTF maps for Quake 3 for example. This community would be much more alive if it aimed to produce more practical maps and less/fewer self-indulgent ones.
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boilingoil
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:28 am
so, we have an idea yet of what's going on. Is anyone really wanting to do this?
The last few ptm I've seen being posted I always wanted to contribute something to, but didn't feel as though I could really help in any way.
I still couldn't be the one that sells the map, but would really like to take part in one if others are interested...
The last few ptm I've seen being posted I always wanted to contribute something to, but didn't feel as though I could really help in any way.
I still couldn't be the one that sells the map, but would really like to take part in one if others are interested...
Ok here it is.Silicone_Milk wrote:Enough talk! More action! :icon7:
We try for the first Q3/Q3:TA CTF PTM.
We aim for great bot support, gameplay and actuall usefulness as well as nice looks and effects.
We will discuss layout, theme, textures, effects and anyting else after we have a team.
Who is onboard?
I am in.
Uh, well....good luck with that. :shrug:
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
I think that you might as well just drop the project.. :icon29: Make an FFA/TDM map.....with a concept of an environment location. CTF maps can have good bot support, but CTF needs human players....considering that we are in the age of .aas files. CTF maps don't get played over and over and over like freeplay deathmatch. I figure if your going to get a bunch of people to do a good load of work on a map, it better get played!Magnus wrote:Ok here it is.
We try for the first Q3/Q3:TA CTF PTM. We aim for great bot support.
Kind of like the map I mentioned in Castle's topic, that he and Goose made...map Marsv1. It's a huge building in the mountains of Mars. It's a good example of something big, that if a bunch of mappers went in on it...it could turn out amazing possibly?
I know I'm not a part of the project, but that's my two cents...
But was it not you v1l3 that said....
This project could be a great sucess and open up lots of new PTM posibilities or it could be a big flop and we will have learned what not to do, but at least we will have learned something if not from feedback on the map at least in the statement made from no players wanting it.
Perhaps a poll is in order on this one? You know before we even bother to get started on a CTF PTM.
CTF maps are played heavily and good ones get very popular. So a CTF PTM has never been done before and if we do a great job on it then players are going to say "Damn!" right?v1l3 wrote:If someone planned another out, and had a concept that has never been done yet, and held an idea that made it interesting to players..I think it would be great to see.
I wouldn't say that it's not an original idea...it's just whether you make it original enough that it makes everybody say "Damn!"
This project could be a great sucess and open up lots of new PTM posibilities or it could be a big flop and we will have learned what not to do, but at least we will have learned something if not from feedback on the map at least in the statement made from no players wanting it.
Perhaps a poll is in order on this one? You know before we even bother to get started on a CTF PTM.
Last edited by Magnus on Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Uh, well....good luck with that. :shrug:
[img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g228/Magnus3204/forumheader.jpg[/img]
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boilingoil
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:28 am