nigger

[Nightshade]

You're still missing the point, numbnuts. Do you or do you not think that there is an element of racial predjudice contributing to higher arrest rates among minorities?

[Magnus]

I would like to know why it "seems" that blacks in nations other than America get along better with everyone around them? I say "seems" because I really don't know this for a fact. This is the impression I get from interviews with the public and things like that in the media. Interviews that display blacks with a group of friends from several other races and speaking with proper grammar according to the country they are in as though they took advantage of their education, but interviews in the U.S. display blacks separateing themselves and only surrounded by other blacks and they seem to have little value in education because they break nearly every rule of grammar when they speak. (Then again we all know how well we can trust the media to present things as they really are. )

Is it that in the U.S. so much value is placed in honoring your races origonal culture?
If so then what black origin culture values doing your best to make sure you are in opposition to the majority's view of what is "decent"? Because I can't seem to find any origonal black culture that had such a value.

Is it that in the U.S. money rules? Because it "seems" that most of the wealthy blacks have joined the rest of the U.S. in valuing their education and laws that are supposed to provide a peaceful existence.
This brings up another question. Why do they see it as "becoming evil" and "betraying their prople" when a black person in the U.S. starts to obey the laws and get along with people of other races and become well educated?

Is it that American blacks are not advanced enough to responsibly handle the extreme level of freedom of expression that people in the U.S. have?
When other people seem to see this freedom as the right to speak out about things and tell others what they feel and think why do blacks in the U.S. seem to see it as the right to talk a lot of bullshit trash and annoy others and act like an idiot?
Also what are they trying to express about themselves when most of what they find popular is about how great it is to kill, buy/sell/do life ruining drugs, sleep with people that are married to/dating someone else, get away with doing things that harm others?

I mean I would really like to know why such a difference in American blacks? I am not trying to be an ass and I could be wrong, but it really seems this is the truth.

You can say what you like, but it's not because everyone in the U.S. are racist and make it look this way because "people" in the U.S. come from all of the races and nations of the world. Too much of a mix for it to be an "American" thing.
Also it seems that the "rest" of America only seem to have such a BIG problem towards black Americans.
You really can't say I see it this way because I am "racist" because it only seems this way to me about blacks in America. Though I might actually be racist.

So what is it really?

EDIT: I tried to clean this up a bit, but it is still confusing. Guess I should wait a bit longer after getting up in the morning to post. :icon16:

[Dave]

That was the most confusing post ever.

[Magnus]

That was the most confusing post ever.

Agreed. Once again ranting on before I have had enough coffee.

[tnf]

That was the most confusing post ever.

Truth.

[horton]

well yea, living in washington dc, i must have quite a few white neighbors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington ... mographics
hint: 62% black

douchebag. 3 of my 5 roommates are black and this topic has come up in discussion before with them.

One of my first nights out here in DC, i got lost in 'South East'. I was stopped by two black police officers who where kind enough to tell me "you don't want to be in this area." They brought me to the metro and sent me on my way. Three weeks ago one of my neighbors was shot, she was 63 and being mugged. She died the next day. I've been robbed twice in 4 years, and I live in the 'good' area of DC. so fuck right off.

What has the fact that you talked about your racism with your black buddies got to do with anything, apart from the fact that you lack any form of tact?

The fact that certain areas are dangerous has got far more to do with them being poor areas, rather than the race of the inhabitants.

There were areas I didnt like going to when I lived in UK, they were poor areas, therefore the crime levels were higher- nothing to do with race.

You were lucky you were white when you were stopped by the police, I guess if you had black skin, they would have stopped, searched and beaten your ass.

And I feel sorry for you, if your neighbour got shot, and you have been robbed twice, you must live somewhere really shit.

No one I know in UK or Japan has been shot, Ive never been robbed, neither has anyone I know.

Ive spent alot of time in certain black areas in London, and the only crimes I saw were my white friends smoking marijuana. So I guess the crime isnt related to the race of the people living there.

[Magnus]

No one I know in UK or Japan has been shot, Ive never been robbed, neither has anyone I know.

Ive spent alot of time in certain black areas in London, and the only crimes I saw were my white friends smoking marijuana. So I guess the crime isnt related to the race of the people living there.

There is kind of a good point I was trying to get at this morning only from a different set of experience and put less confusing than mine....lol

In what I was talking about the crime is realted to the race of people living there though.
Why is it this way with so many blacks in the U.S. and not other countries?

They scream raceism, but are the most racist of all.
Blacks in the U.S. act as though they can make all the racial slurs they want to who ever they want and it "better" be OK, but anyone else uses a racial slur or term about them and all hell breaks loose.

A black person walking alone through a white area in the U.S. may get some rude looks from the residents, but god forbid that a white person walk alone in a black area in the U.S. because they will be lucky to get out unharmed.

The same was true only in reverse ("whites" harming blacks that walk through a "white" area) 60 to 80 years ago, but there is nobody left with any right to retalliation.
There is nobody left alive that was a slave or slave owner. There are most likely nobody left alive that was the child of a slave or slave owner. Hell even all the grandchildren of slaves or slave owners are about gone.
So again with so many generations removed there is nobody left with any right to retalliation or refund in this matter.
As far as the segrigation and inequal rights, oppertunities and treatment in the early to mid part of last century the laws for some time now have addressed (if not over address) all of the things that were an issue back then.

So their level of raceism is inexcuseable.

It is time to cut the bullshit and stop seperating from each other and just be decent, well educated, Americans. That or someone needs to just get the frig out so there can be some peace.

And yes they are arrested more because police are concentrated in black areas, but this is because they commit more crimes.

If the black areas suddenly calmed down and there was a rise in people killing each other in the streets and dealing drugs and robbing each other in wealthy "white" areas then the police would suddenly concentrate in those areas to deal with the volume of crimes being commited.

This is admitedly a complicated issue and not that simple, but anyway there it is.

[Nightshade]

The only point of your post I'll address is what you say about the white on black violence ending 60 to 80 years ago. Flat out wrong. There are plenty of places down here in the dirty south where you can still find signs that read "Nigger don't let the sun set on you here." I don't disagree with everything that you're trying to say (don't feel like getting into all of it atm), but you're completely wrong about there not being any risk for a black man walking through a white neighborhood.

[Magnus]

I didn't know there were any "white" neighborhoods left in the south...lol

Just kidding.

Anyway. You are most likely right. I as stated a few times above do not claim to know all the facts.
Although what % of "white" areas actually still act this way? Less than 1% would be a safe bet.
What % of black areas actually still act this way? Above 85% I am sure.
I have been around much of the south and had to spend weeks in various areas and for every 1 white neighborhood still like that there are 300 to 500 black neighborhoods the same way.

[Dave]

I believe the most important fact as to why black America is perceived to run counter to white will is that American nationalism developed well before the end of slavery. The slave cultures were never included as part of America except in the rare instances when it had something revolutionary to offer--music for instance. American nationalism has never been inclusive, it's always been conservative and suspicious.

Fast forward to today when whites look upon the stereotypical black ghetto dwelling, welfare mooching, broken family experience as counter-American dream/hard work/stable families (and all of that other nonsense), apply that stereotype to the whole and invent an ideal of a black culture that's incapable and unwanting of integration. Now cram a vast majority of these people with their unpopular culture into the worst urban areas with rampant drug use, little money, weak communities and no hope, and you've just set up a situation where cops (regardless of their view of what constitutes "America") can't help but shoot the proverbial fish in a barrel.

Now, of course, if America were truly the melting pot it claims to be, none of that would exist. Universalism is happy a buzzword people throw around to insist their culture is open and inviting, but at some point a dominate culture arises that lays down exactly what is and is not socially acceptable.



It just so happens that American nationalism was designed around white culture, but the US is no different than European nations where immigration challenges racially based traditions of the Nation from one end and long established provincial "white" cultures with their own historical and language traditions challenge it from the other.

[i think i am]

Dave wins.

[Magnus]

Very true about eventually one culture will become dominant. That is the primal nature of every human and that will be with us for a loooooong time to come. People would do a lot better if they would stop pretending that humanity is so much more advanced and evolved than it really is.

That is like (while on the subject) stereotyping.
Stereotyping is a survival instinct. Without it humanity would not be here today. We have a number of experiences with something and come to expect the same if not at least very similar experience with that same thing.
We experienced as a species being eaten by lions over and over. After a while we stereotyped lions as something that would eat us and because of this when we saw a lion we stayed away and thus we survived longer.
So stereotyping is not something that we as humans need to be riding our own asses about all the time.

The various races are just not going to get along very well until they have went a looooog time treating each other right and after a while come to expect good treatment from each other.

For the most part it can be said that you(people) like your neighbor and enjoy it when they visit for a while and enjoy visiting them for a while as well and you care about them to the point you don't want anything bad to happen to them and would want to help them if it did, but you get really irritated when they stay too long and would come to dislike them very much if they had to move in for a long time.
After a while that dislike can fester given long enough and turn to hate. One house can not peacefully be for more than one family for very long.

So the races need to either
1. Go to their own country and just visit each other until we are not so different and until we have been nice to each other for long enough for us to expect it.
or
2. Accept a certain level of annoyance and uneasiness and violence and so on until they finally get sick of feeling uptight and sit down and talk and get over their problems.
That or until they get sick of it and go at it until there are only one of them left.

[horton]

There is kind of a good point I was trying to get at this morning only from a different set of experience and put less confusing than mine....lol

Im not sure if your point is exactly the same as the one that I was trying to convey.

I think sometimes people have the right to play the racism card.

My opinion on such things has changed since I moved to Japan, in UK I could only comment on shit I saw, because I was white in a 98% white nation.

Since coming to Japan, if I get shit from someone, one of the initial thoughts that occur is are you fucking with my just because Im foreign?

Im sure that in most cases, this is not what is happening, they are fucking with me because Im an asshole - however because of the small minority of racist cunts, the thought does enter my mind.

[Ryoki]

I would like to know why it "seems" that blacks in nations other than America get along better with everyone around them?

I think for a small part it's because there's still quite a lot of blatant racism against blacks in the US. It used to be a lot worse of course, but it's there.

For a bigger part, i think it's because the whole racism thing has over time created a sort of victim role out of which it's very hard to escape. Feeling sorry for yourself makes you feel good. It offers all kinds of excuses not to do or to do stuff. Other immigrant groups don't have this as strongly, and usually fare better.

[Nightshade]

I believe the most important fact as to why black America is perceived to run counter to white will is that American nationalism developed well before the end of slavery. The slave cultures were never included as part of America except in the rare instances when it had something revolutionary to offer--music for instance. American nationalism has never been inclusive, it's always been conservative and suspicious.

Fast forward to today when whites look upon the stereotypical black ghetto dwelling, welfare mooching, broken family experience as counter-American dream/hard work/stable families (and all of that other nonsense), apply that stereotype to the whole and invent an ideal of a black culture that's incapable and unwanting of integration. Now cram a vast majority of these people with their unpopular culture into the worst urban areas with rampant drug use, little money, weak communities and no hope, and you've just set up a situation where cops (regardless of their view of what constitutes "America") can't help but shoot the proverbial fish in a barrel.

Now, of course, if America were truly the melting pot it claims to be, none of that would exist. Universalism is happy a buzzword people throw around to insist their culture is open and inviting, but at some point a dominate culture arises that lays down exactly what is and is not socially acceptable.



It just so happens that American nationalism was designed around white culture, but the US is no different than European nations where immigration challenges racially based traditions of the Nation from one end and long established provincial "white" cultures with their own historical and language traditions challenge it from the other.

I think that this is a somewhat baseless and manufactured argument. Look at the Chinese for example. While not exactly the same as the blacks in US history, they were treated similarly for a long time (construction of the railroads, anyone?) but now have nowhere near the problems that blacks do. And as far as the argument about capability and willingness to integrate being an invention, it's not. No one forces anyone to live anywhere, racial groups voluntarily segregate themselves for the most part. Look into the failure of forced busing and you'll see what I mean, I think it sheds a lot of light on this discussion.

Now cram a vast majority of these people with their unpopular culture into the worst urban areas with rampant drug use, little money, weak communities and no hope, and you've just set up a situation where cops (regardless of their view of what constitutes "America") can't help but shoot the proverbial fish in a barrel.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at with this statement (to an extent). Are you saying that this is the situation as it stands or that whitey created it? There may be certain external factors that influenced the end result of having lots of poor black communities, but there's no "Keep The Brother Down" branch of the government. Black culture in the US is broken in many ways, and it's not up to anyone but blacks to fix it. Look at the Native Americans...

[Dave]

It's interesting that you point out the Chinese and juxtapose their integration experience using the word "problems." To me problem implies an ideal mode of integration where everyone joins the team and comes in for the big win as part of the established American culture. American history is rife with instances where the dominant culture demanded that "lesser" cultures conform to its "superior" ideals or face destruction--your Indians for example. We don't send General Custer out to round up the injuns any more, but we don't exactly treat other cultures with enough respect to make them feel welcome either. Why else do you think diversity is such a challenge and a hot topic in academic/the workplace?

I'm not blaming whitey for the failure of the black community to become part of the dominant white culture, I merely pointed out how I see white America reacting negatively to black integration based on how far it's viewed as departing from the cultural norm.

As for the second, I never suggested we need to fix black culture.. It's either fine how it is or up to them to do it themselves if it's not fine. Assuming we need to fix it is the whole logic behind nineteenth century imperialism. My personal point of view lines up with post-NOI Malcolm X: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeche ... bullet.htm

Listen to it if you have time.

[Nightshade]

I've not got time to continue this at the moment, but I did skim the Malcolm X speech. He's always struck me as having been far too much of a separatist to accomplish anything. Many people I hear speaking about racial issues these days makes it sooooo divisive. Even the term "African-American" is a source of contention. Meh, I'll try to pick this up later.

[Magnus]

I would like to know why it "seems" that blacks in nations other than America get along better with everyone around them?

I think for a small part it's because there's still quite a lot of blatant racism against blacks in the US. It used to be a lot worse of course, but it's there.

For a bigger part, i think it's because the whole racism thing has over time created a sort of victim role out of which it's very hard to escape. Feeling sorry for yourself makes you feel good. It offers all kinds of excuses not to do or to do stuff. Other immigrant groups don't have this as strongly, and usually fare better.

Finally. Someone trying to answer my base question. And for a bigger part a good answer as well I think. :icon1:

Thanks Ryoki.

[Dave]

I've not got time to continue this at the moment, but I did skim the Malcolm X speech. He's always struck me as having been far too much of a separatist to accomplish anything. Many people I hear speaking about racial issues these days makes it sooooo divisive. Even the term "African-American" is a source of contention. Meh, I'll try to pick this up later.

I don't think he was being quite as literal as he sounds after he left the NOI--before that, sure. I believe his point was creating strong communities, not a separate black nation. Really, the difference between the black community and most other minority communities is their internal strength, not their willingness to integrate into the dominant culture.

[Magnus]

Really, the difference between the black community and most other minority communities is their internal strength, not their willingness to integrate into the dominant culture.

Are you saying that they have low internal strength or high internal strength?
Other races in the U.S. have peace, prosperity, and happyness in their communities because they have true internal strength. If black communities had true internal strength they would thrive more and have less problems. Internally they have rampant black on black crime even more so than black on white crime. They have their own people traped in their povety riddled, uneducated areas by their own crime and when the police come in to rid them of their entrapment they scream raceism.
Also they have been in the U.S. almost as long as any other race. Though they were slaves for a long time. So what "different" culture could they have. Not any they brought from Africa. Just like American culture is different from Brittish culture Black Amarican culture is just as removed from any African culture.
Their culture is the same culture as anyone else in the U.S. that has been here for several generations. "American" is their culture at this point. The cultural difference excuse no longer has any weight in this matter. They have been in the U.S. long enough to have the same culture as other races. It seems to me that it is not as much of a cultural thing as much as it is a personal choice thing.

A certian amout of rebellion is a healthy thing I think, but for criminy sakes! Too much rebellion will get you expelled from the group and that is a good way to insure that you do not survive.

I've not got time to continue this at the moment, but I did skim the Malcolm X speech. He's always struck me as having been far too much of a separatist to accomplish anything.

Very true. Malcolm X was in truth a violent man that seemed to dream of a racial war where the black man was the new master of the world and enslaved or killed out "whitey". He is at any rate the wrong person to pick as a leader or respected figure.

Many people I hear speaking about racial issues these days makes it sooooo divisive. Even the term "African-American" is a source of contention.

Again true.

They have pushed it to the point that most people are not even sure what to call them anymore! Black? Nope! Bad. Dark Skinned? Nope offensive for some reason. Oh and not to mention Rediculous! Covers too many groups. Afro American? Bad. Negro. Bad. African American? Nope!
Are you an Amarican or not? Quit trying to seperate yourself.
Every time a "new politically/socially correct" identification is invented for blacks (even when it is invented BY blacks) when people start to use it they start to throw a fit saying that it is offensive in some way.
Seems like there is an attempt at making it politically incorrect to even try to identify a black person when you witness them commiting a crime.
"What did the suspect look like?"
"Well....Um....Uh....I have been pushed into not being comfortable useing the words needed to honestly and accurately describe them."

They pushed for equality and when they got it they start to sue and make shit up to get more rather than equal.

They cry that they can't get an equal education due to crime in the schools, but who are the ones doing the crimes? Blacks!
If a black person is inclined to become educated they are picked on by other blacks untill they leave for a better (not black) area or untill they give up and go for crime as well.

They have the oppertunity for a good education yet they abandon it for a life of crime thus continuing the cycle. Who made that choice for them? Not the rest of America. They did.

Their prefered style of music and movies glorify this disruptive, criminal lifestyle. It is like they are trying to teach each other to act this way.

Are they making an attempt at their own total social exclusion? (Well in the U.S. anyway.)

[Dave]

Are you saying that they have low internal strength or high internal strength?

Low, very, very low.