Lightmap error and another error =)

[Hipshot]

If you look at those images, they all show parts where the lightmap kinda doesn't wanna blend over to the next face, for some reason. And the difference is so big you can clearly see this when you show normal textures. There's one thing this problem seems to share, It's much more notable where's there are few lights and little brightness. Other things I first thought it might have been is groups, patches, models, etc, but no one of these things are the same here, these pictures shows normal brushes (1), groups (2), models (3) and patches (4). Also, for a while I thought It was cause of texture scale .25, that I widely use, however, after a lot of testing, I don't think it's because of this. Any ideas?

This is how I compile, I've tried both normal Q3map2 16 and Q3map_fs. I've tried alot of different compile options, from samplesize default, different samples, bounces, filter, dirt etc, nothing can help me and it looks pretty bad in the level.

Code: Select all

del "prodm6.log"
"q3map2_fs_20g.exe" -bsp -meta -samplesize 4 -v "D:\Games\Games\Quake III Arena\baseq3\maps\default.map" >>prodm6.log
"q3map2_fs_20g.exe" -light -patchshadows -fast -samples 6 -gamma 2.5 -compensate 2.25 -v -bounce 8 "D:\Games\Games\Quake III Arena\baseq3\maps\default" >>prodm6.log

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For the next error, what does this mean? (And just for the record, the above problem, has nothing to do with it, they can't be linked, since I've already tried removing the models mentioned below) Do I need to care, it's models, why would they generate a problem like this?

Code: Select all

writing D:\Games\Games\Quake III Arena\baseq3\maps\prodm6_b12.prt
--- FloodAreas ---
        1 areas
--- AddTriangleModels ---
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/pro-dm6_center_a_crown.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/pro-dm6_center_a_crown.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/pro-dm6_center_a_crown.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/pro-dm6_center_a_crown.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/hipshot_pro-dm6/arc.ase unable to generate brush - Case 1.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/a/pro-dm6_south_west.ase unable to generate brush - Case 2.
WARNING: Model models/mapobjects/a/pro-dm6_south_west.ase unable to generate brush - Case 2.
--- AddEntitySurfaceModels ---
--- FilterDetailBrushesIntoTree ---

[rgoer]

are you using the autoclip spawnflag (I think it was the "spawnflags 2" flag) on any misc_model entities?

[Hipshot]

Yea, on those and several more, I guess that's the problem then. Can't really remove it either =)

[rgoer]

clip by hand, autoclip can be evil hahaha

[obsidian]

Also, try compiling with normal Q3Map2. This might be one of those odd bugs still being worked out with the _fs variants.

Would you mind posting a r_showtris image as well. Something looks very odd about where those lightmap seams are.

It's also possible that with the lightmap scale, your lightmaps aren't fitting on a single page. I don't *think* that's the problem judging by the screenshots, but you never know...

[Shallow]

If the base UV channel on the model surfaces isn't continuous/welded, I don't think the compiler magically glues them together like it does with surfaces it gets from brushes (where they have the same worldspace texturing offset/scale) so they aren't candidates for continuous lightmap UVs. Maybe it's that?

[Hipshot]

Also, try compiling with normal Q3Map2. This might be one of those odd bugs still being worked out with the _fs variants.

Would you mind posting a r_showtris image as well. Something looks very odd about where those lightmap seams are.

It's also possible that with the lightmap scale, your lightmaps aren't fitting on a single page. I don't *think* that's the problem judging by the screenshots, but you never know...

As I wrote, maybe not to clearly, I also tested this in Q3map2 2.5.16. No difference. I've tried so many switches and settings, I just can't understand why. I mean, I have mapped for so long, having a much more advanced lightmap than this and it worked. I just compiled a version, without any models, whatsoever, still the same problem. Gonna try a new fresh Q3map2, a fresh q3 folder too, maybe there's something I've done in another shader that messes the compile for some reason... my baseq3 folder is, ~15GB of working material since like 2001...

And here's the images you quested, I'm not sure what they will actually tell you though... I mean, it's pretty obvious that theres a seam wheres the lighterrors starts...

If the base UV channel on the model surfaces isn't continuous/welded, I don't think the compiler magically glues them together like it does with surfaces it gets from brushes (where they have the same worldspace texturing offset/scale) so they aren't candidates for continuous lightmap UVs. Maybe it's that?

It affects both models and brushes. No difference.

[a13n]

In the past when I was using earlier version of q3map2 such as 2.3.x series I encountered a similar problem in a region where seperate func_group met each other.
FYI.

[Hipshot]

That is obviously not the case here =)

[a13n]

Oops!

[a13n]

Hipshot, let me give me a second chance to answer to your quiz again!
This time I'll get it by.

Answer:
You are applying texture compression to ligthmaps.

[Hipshot]

Hipshot, let me give me a second chance to answer to your quiz again!
This time I'll get it by.

Answer:
You are applying texture compression to ligthmaps.

Hah, no I'm not, or, well, I didn't even think it was possible to change the compression from default on the lightmap texture. I have tried exporting it however, it's just a pain in the dick to sit and paint a lightmap this big... The map probably won't get released, maybe as a alpha or something. I have another map to release next week which I've been speed mapping together with mostly old assets. When that one is released I can go back to this...

Thanks for trying to help me =)

[a13n]

The map probably won't get released, maybe as a alpha or something.

Because your maps these days almost exceed the limitation of supposed hardware for q3?

I have another map to release next week which I've been speed mapping together with mostly old assets. When that one is released I can go back to this...

How many maps do you work on simultaneously?

Thanks for trying to help me =)

I'm just enjoying your quiz.

[obsidian]

Zip it up and send it my way, I'll try and take a look and see what's going on with this. It's hard to tell from just the screenshots. Seems to be very odd, indeed.

Besides lightmap scaling and those compile switches, anything else out of the ordinary that you are using on this map?

[Hipshot]

The map probably won't get released, maybe as a alpha or something.

Because your maps these days almost exceed the limitation of supposed hardware for q3?

I have another map to release next week which I've been speed mapping together with mostly old assets. When that one is released I can go back to this...

How many maps do you work on simultaneously?

Thanks for trying to help me =)

I'm just enjoying your quiz.

# Because I won't release a map with grave lightmap errors like this, looks stupid in the game, I don't wanna be associated with that.

# Two and ideas keeps coming all the time, this time a year - mapping is great.

Zip it up and send it my way, I'll try and take a look and see what's going on with this. It's hard to tell from just the screenshots. Seems to be very odd, indeed.

Besides lightmap scaling and those compile switches, anything else out of the ordinary that you are using on this map?

I'll send it this week. And no, I don't know anything out of the ordinary, well, except for me using larger models here, but I've tried compling without any models at all...

[Fjoggs]

I heard something about a dude nicked Hipshot that releases maps with grave lightmap errors. Total nabb

[obsidian]

I copied a chunk of brush geometry to a new map and then created a duplicate of it for testing. It seems that removing the func_group on your patches seems to solve the problem. Still seems weird for this kind of behaviour, though.



A few other points of interest:

* You didn't have any light sources in your map other than the sky, so the indoor areas are pitch black. I think you forgot to pack up the light models and/or model shader.

* You have a precariously large amount of T-junctions throughout the map as well as overdrawn brushes that extend behind other brushes. Stuff like this tend to cause lightmap seams where they are not intended as the compiler will not see them as a contiguous surface or it will consider the surface to extend behind the other brushes. There are also a few sparklies as a result of those T-juncs.

* Use of hint brushes are really suboptimal. You have a couple of hint brushes in the middle of the map that have 3 exposed surfaces which is probably doubling the amount of portals in that room. Most of the other ones in doorways will have a limited effect since they are sitting parallel to each other.

* You could probably do a little more as far as detail brushes go.

* Some of your editorImages aren't loading in Radiant, possibly because you used .jpg in your shader. Editing this to .tga fixed most of them, though there are still a few missing, of which I haven't bothered tracking down. No missing textures in game, so it's just editorImages.

Also, another thing, the lamps, maybe you know a good way to make the light fall smoother from the emitting texture, it really looks to sharp and wierd on some places.

Try a combination of a higher lightmap resolution and filtering. I don't know what your lamps look like (they were missing) but if they had any fine-line details, the higher resolution will allow for them to cast shadows accordingly. The filtering will take care of aliasing.

[Hipshot]

A few other points of interest:

* You didn't have any light sources in your map other than the sky, so the indoor areas are pitch black. I think you forgot to pack up the light models and/or model shader.

* You have a precariously large amount of T-junctions throughout the map as well as overdrawn brushes that extend behind other brushes. Stuff like this tend to cause lightmap seams where they are not intended as the compiler will not see them as a contiguous surface or it will consider the surface to extend behind the other brushes. There are also a few sparklies as a result of those T-juncs.

* Use of hint brushes are really suboptimal. You have a couple of hint brushes in the middle of the map that have 3 exposed surfaces which is probably doubling the amount of portals in that room. Most of the other ones in doorways will have a limited effect since they are sitting parallel to each other.

* You could probably do a little more as far as detail brushes go.

* Some of your editorImages aren't loading in Radiant, possibly because you used .jpg in your shader. Editing this to .tga fixed most of them, though there are still a few missing, of which I haven't bothered tracking down. No missing textures in game, so it's just editorImages.

Also, another thing, the lamps, maybe you know a good way to make the light fall smoother from the emitting texture, it really looks to sharp and wierd on some places.

Try a combination of a higher lightmap resolution and filtering. I don't know what your lamps look like (they were missing) but if they had any fine-line details, the higher resolution will allow for them to cast shadows accordingly. The filtering will take care of aliasing.

# Hmm, strange, the rar contains both the model and the shader, the shader is textures/hipshot_pro-dm6/lamp_high and lamp_low, the model are lamphigh.ase and lamplow.ase.

# Yea, I know about this, it has not been such a big thing now since it's just an alpha, played at the office and by some selected. I need to go through this alot but I'm not sure that I will fix the smallest things til public beta.

# The hints are not supposed to be in the level like that, yes they suck, I copied them from a old map but they are no good anyways, for reasons you speak of, and also, they need "skip".

# Thinking about doing a VIS mesh, thus making most of the level detail and then VIS with caulk, might be a good idea, but I'm gonna try it, I THINK it can become pretty good.

# The not loading images is because they are outslashed in the shader, because they affect the lightmap color, I need neutral editorimages, but they were made in a haste for difference purpose. This is not the first time I notice that the editor image affects the -light stage, I think it's a bug or maybe the order where the editorimage parm are placed within the shader.

# Most of all lightbugs are fixed now, I did ungroup the patches, worked like 95% there are some odd differences at some places, but they can hardly be seen without drawing only the lightmap, the brushed that had the same error (door frames) I just made into one and made a texture that contained the entire frame instead, worked almost perfect. The falloff from the normal lights are now round and smooth. I tried the ambient occlusion dity compie parm and it fits the overall style just so good so I'm gonna stay with it.

Thanks for your help, It's just so nice to have another pair of eyes into the very closed process of making these levels, you really get blind after a while. The patch-group thing, I have always grouped them because back in the days I heard it was "needed" to skip the patches to dis-attach from each other, making glitches. Never had this problem with it before, I've done another map while this lighterror was floating around the net, al patches are grouped in that one, no problems... very odd indeed. Me too has copied chunks of the level to a fresh one, no models, nothing at all really... maybe it's because of the texture, still... odd

[obsidian]

IIRC lightmap colour is affected in the following order:
texture map, editorImage, lightImage, q3map_lightRGB.

The easiest way is to specifically specify a lightRGB as your other textures will not affect the outcome.

[dnky]

This made an old guy smile actually. I was begining to think nobody cared about construction any more. More and more I see technology being used to create a look of quality when technically the substance is lacking. Even wrote an artical about it:
HERE
Appologies for going off topic. I guess this is more appropriate to the newer engines.

[obsidian]

Hahaha... excellent article. I found it hilarious, not because it's supposed to be, but because it's so true.

On the other hand, when I first started, I guess I was pretty sloppy too. But then a bunch of other mappers (most of which either disappeared or are now working professionally) acted as mentors and steered me in the right direction. So there's hope yet for all these newbie mappers.

[pjw]

an old guy

How old are you? I bet I'm older than you are, but parts of that article made you sound like you were 80. And waving a cane.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with pretty much everything you wrote re: construction techniques (although I *do* think there's a place for low-level ambient light in some levels), and it's too bad that so many of those entries were slipshod. But that aside, you just sound really cranky. Stuff like:

The days of the craftsman are gone

Oh please.
The majority of what's produced by artists/craftsmen is crap, but that's just the nature of the beast, and it's been true since Ogg the caveman was scrawling on the wall with sabretooth dung. Level design is like any other creative endeavor; true works of genius and skill aren't common and never have been, but they're certainly not going away.

I have this urge to make you a list of cool stuff in the world, or send you pictures of puppies or something.