So I finally tried out apple

[[xeno]Julios]

#1 - get used to it... applications eventually remember the maximized position. And if it's really that important to you, Command + Shift + F in Preview or Command + L in Acrobat will put you into full screen reading mode.

Oh I know how to deal with the problem. I'm just bringing up the point that it is a problem to begin with.

#3 - use the mouse

This is using the mouse - here lemme show you what I mean:



Notice how I can select multiple groupings of files? I can't seem to do the same in OSX. The only way to do so in OSX is to select each file separately, whereas in XP I can select a contiguous group, then make another separate selection without losing the original group. It's a very useful feature in XP.

#4 - isn't worth a response

Then let me be more precise. The system preferences doesn't seem to allow for much in the way of advanced configuration. Configuring sounds, for example, is very limited. And even when I turn user interface sounds off, I get annoying beeps from time to time when I press something wrong. And I can't get the annoying bootup sound to be disabled - that thing drives me crazy, and I don't want to have to mute or disable the speakers in order to do so.

[Cooldown]

fisher price tweaks

kill bootup chime: http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~arcana/Star ... ex.en.html

[Dave]

Oh I know how to deal with the problem. I'm just bringing up the point that it is a problem to begin with.

No, it's not.. It's just how it is.

This is using the mouse - here lemme show you what I mean:

Use the mouse. You also have to hold control, command or one of those buttons while selecting groups or clicking on individual files. You can do the same thing in Windows.

I know you're in grad school and thus part of the academic elite, but you really need this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0764576755/ref ... 746&sr=1-1

[[xeno]Julios]

No, it's not.. It's just how it is.

and a 486 is slower than an AMD - that's just how it is. A fullscreen button is an advantage for me. I shouldn't have to calibrate each application window by tediously dragging the corner and repositioning the window so that next time it approximates a fullscreen.

Use the mouse. You also have to hold control, command or one of those buttons while selecting groups or clicking on individual files. You can do the same thing in Windows.

Doesn't work the same. You can hold down shift to select a contiguous grouping of files, and you can hold down command to select non-contiguous files.

So far, so good.

The problem is combining these two to select multiple groupings of files.

Look at the last image I posted. I achieved that selection with four mouse clicks. It'd require at least 8 clicks, if not 13, with OSX.

The way I achieved that in xp was to click the first file of the first group of files, hold down shift, and then click the last file of the first group. Then I let go of shift, held down ctrl, selected the first file of the second group, then held down shift, and selected the last file of the second group, and voila.

In OSX, if you try to do that, the minute you try to select the second grouping, you lose the first, even when you hold down the command key.

I know you're in grad school and thus part of the academic elite, but you really need this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0764576755/ref ... 746&sr=1-1

What would that book help me with? There are plenty of good websites with info, and 3rd party apps that address some of the issues I have.

[Dave]

I'm done arguing... Learn something new or go back to the old way.

[[xeno]Julios]

I'm done arguing... Learn something new or go back to the old way.

So you concede my point about multiple file groupings?

I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion, not an battle of egos here.

[Dave]

No, but look at it this way.. I get paid to administrate a bunch of computers and I do it very well. I use a Mac at home and a PC at work. I use both interchangeably and don't complain about the differences... I adapt to the differences. I don't see one OS as a problem or having an advantage over the other (except the mach threads crap in OS X)

Now I look at this thread and see a typical '"Macs suck because I can't [figure out how to] do something I can do in Windows" because I am approaching the subject with prejudice and the inability/unwillingness to adapt to a different paradigm' thread.

[Dave]

By the way, I wrote that post on a Mac while connected to a Windows MSSQL server over remote desktop setting up a SAS database.

[[xeno]Julios]

Now I look at this thread and see a typical '"Macs suck because I can't [figure out how to] do something I can do in Windows" because I am approaching the subject with prejudice and the inability/unwillingness to adapt to a different paradigm' thread.

But I actually gave some concrete examples of functional differences, which adaptation has nothing to do with. I'm perfectly willing to learn and adapt.

Take the mutliple file groupings - the only way to adapt is to either find a third party file browser other than finder which does what I want, or to get used to it and deal with the relative inefficiency.

But notice that neither of these solutions detract from the fact which I'm trying to get across, which is that

Finder's inability to select mutliple file groupings is an example of functional inferiority to windows explorer.

You can concede this point without conceding that OSX is inferior.

These small things, like selecting multple groups of files, being able to maximize windows, etc., are important things. Many other differences between xp and osx are just stylistic, and have little bearing on how functional they are. I can and have adapted to many of those things without complaint.

I'm focusing on actual functional differences.

[Dave]

What is it you're researching? Tripe Argumentation?

[[xeno]Julios]

gg.

next please.

[Dave]

I don't think anyone else here is going to want to "intelligently" debate something so inane, so you might as well just declare yourself the supreme champion.

[Foo]

haha, told.

Jules, you're such a dork

[ek]

I can't believe the tid bit shit you're arguing or debating.

Quit trying to represent some kind of intellectual, it doesn't really work when the point of discussion revolves around sorting files and extensions and how to wash your anus with two fingers.

You need to quit 'learning' and enter the real world. Cunts like you don't make it far.

[Massive Quasars]

I can't believe the tid bit shit you're arguing or debating.

Quit trying to represent some kind of intellectual, it doesn't really work when the point of discussion revolves around sorting files and extensions and how to wash your anus with two fingers.

You need to quit 'learning' and enter the real world. Cunts like you don't make it far.

I've read very little from his posts in this thread, but here goes.

Jules, pick your battles. Not every audience is receptive to, and not every topic appropriate grounds for, a disinterested drawn out intellectual exchange.

If you want more than a friend's advice on the subject, crack open a decent microeconomics text and read about decision making w.r.t. utility and opportunity costs.

[obsidian]

1) The bloody maximize button doesn't fully maximize the screen, which I really need. Not all of us have huge displays where partial maximization is sufficient. Besides, some of us like to focus on one particular window without being reminded of the background clutter. When I'm reading a pdf article I want to be immersed in it with a single click of a button. Instead, I have to tediously drag the corners of the window until it approximates a full screen. fucking bullshit.

2) The built in file navigator just blows. Can't sort documents by file type, but rather by file kind, which is too broad of a category for most use.

3) In XP, you can select multiple contiguous groupings of files by nifty use of the shift and ctrl key. In mac you can only select a single grouping. Fucking bullshit.

4) The systems preferences is a goddamn joke - fisher price tweaks and that's it.

1) The way Mac OS works is centered a lot on drag and drop. They expect you to drag stuff from a program or window into another. To go fullscreen on a lot of windows really isn't necessary and is actually a bit of a hindrance to workflow on OS X. Most apps that require fullscreen (like Acrobat, etc) will have a fullscreen feature or shortcut. I know of a few Mac users who complain about hitting the maximize button in Windows and making it filling the whole monitor instead of 'zooming' and I know that drives them nuts.

2) Never had problems with finder. I don't really see the deal between 'type' and 'kind'. Either way on both OSes, I have no problem finding what I'm looking for. I personally think that OS X has a much superior search feature that finds exactly the file you're looking for. Windows is okay, but I find it slower.

3) You can do the same in OS X. I guess you haven't found out how yet.

4) The system preferences doesn't have a million different options because it simply doesn't need a million different options. Setting up a network in Windows for example, you need to do quite a few steps manually. Even the wizard takes a fair bit of 'next, next, next'. In OS X, all you need to do is open the networking window, setup the name of the network and password, and select enable file sharing. It does the rest for you and it does it well.

OS X is a fine operating system. Maybe it's not your cup of tea because you have different preferences on how you do stuff or perhaps your needs are different, but that's not to say that OS X has major unworkable flaws and is in any way inferior to Windows. BTW, I use Windows, Linux and OS X on a normal basis, so I'm certainly not biased one way or another. All three OSes have their little gems and quirks, just get used to them and figure out the alternative methods. But right now, you sound like a fish telling a bird about how dry the air is.

[R00k]

People who like using Macs often want to have it both ways. One of the biggest compliments I get from Apple users when they're talking about a Mac is "it just works."

But when it doesn't work, they try to make it look like semantics.

For example, I agree with Jules on the multiple file selection problem. Fairly regularly, I have to go through a directory with hundreds of files in it, and select batches of files here and there that aren't contiguous. Being able to use Ctrl and Shift together makes this easy and efficient. Doing this on a Mac changes 2 minutes of work into 45 minutes of work. I don't see that as semantics, or trifling.

It's the same with networking. My network has probably 900 Windows PCs, 80 Windows servers, 200 Macs and 3 Mac servers. The Apple machines are always causing problems when it comes to networking with other machines. All of the Mac/Apple techs that I've worked with like to say that, if all PCs did things the same way as Macs, and made things as easy as the Macs do, then there wouldn't ever be any issues, because the Macs "just work," without having to get into all the crappy details. The problem with this argument is that the reason we have to get into messy details, is because Macs aren't standards-compliant. There are a lot of Linux systems out there that behave better out of the box than Macs do. If it weren't for the weird way Apple tries to implement things, we wouldn't ever have to hear about crap like 'resource forking' or have to go buy a product like Dave to enable Macs to do things correctly that they are supposed to be able to do out of the box.

The fact is, even Microsoft goes out of their way to make their products compatible with as many different systems and architectures as possible by adhering to standards (mostly - don't get me started on their web products). But when Windows makes up an overwhelming majority of networked systems on the market, Apple doesn't bother really making its products compatible with open networking standards -- and then people try to make it sound as if this is just another subjective rant against Apple by bitter Microsoft fanboys.

Jules' point about sorting by file types is a valid point. You can call it a "paradigm shift" if you really want to talk about standard computing operations in such terms, but the fact of the matter is that file type sorting is more granular than file "kind" sorting, and thus offers greater control and better organization. To try to turn that into an "apples and oranges" comparison is just dissembling. It's like saying that a programming language that only offers 3 operands is just as good as a language that offers 9, and furthermore that the 3 operands can be made to do the same things that the 9 can, and it's more elegant because there are fewer fundamental choices -- that may be true, but it still doesn't invalidate the point that 9 operands is better than 3.

[Underpants?]

I can't believe the tid bit shit you're arguing or debating.

Quit trying to represent some kind of intellectual, it doesn't really work when the point of discussion revolves around sorting files and extensions and how to wash your anus with two fingers.

You need to quit 'learning' and enter the real world. Cunts like you don't make it far.

[K-mart Shopper]

Macs? Oh yeah, we had one of those at Officemax. I made a pretty drawing of a ladybug on it once using Photoshop, but that was mainly it. It had printing issues, networking issues, and internet issues. Could they be fixed? Sure, but nobody cared, and customers never required us to use it. I sometimes used it to read temperamental floppy disks that failed on the PC.

It had OSX 10 loaded, and was nearly equivalent to the PC. Overall the interface was decent, but awfully simple, and some of the programs seemed like they were simply ported from PC code and were buggy. Honestly it seems like with Macs you pay more for less - and apparently some people like that!

Sorry for your misadventure Jules.

[Chupacabra]

People who like using Macs often want to have it both ways. One of the biggest compliments I get from Apple users when they're talking about a Mac is "it just works."

But when it doesn't work, they try to make it look like semantics.

For example, I agree with Jules on the multiple file selection problem. Fairly regularly, I have to go through a directory with hundreds of files in it, and select batches of files here and there that aren't contiguous. Being able to use Ctrl and Shift together makes this easy and efficient. Doing this on a Mac changes 2 minutes of work into 45 minutes of work. I don't see that as semantics, or trifling.

It's the same with networking. My network has probably 900 Windows PCs, 80 Windows servers, 200 Macs and 3 Mac servers. The Apple machines are always causing problems when it comes to networking with other machines. All of the Mac/Apple techs that I've worked with like to say that, if all PCs did things the same way as Macs, and made things as easy as the Macs do, then there wouldn't ever be any issues, because the Macs "just work," without having to get into all the crappy details. The problem with this argument is that the reason we have to get into messy details, is because Macs aren't standards-compliant. There are a lot of Linux systems out there that behave better out of the box than Macs do. If it weren't for the weird way Apple tries to implement things, we wouldn't ever have to hear about crap like 'resource forking' or have to go buy a product like Dave to enable Macs to do things correctly that they are supposed to be able to do out of the box.

The fact is, even Microsoft goes out of their way to make their products compatible with as many different systems and architectures as possible by adhering to standards (mostly - don't get me started on their web products). But when Windows makes up an overwhelming majority of networked systems on the market, Apple doesn't bother really making its products compatible with open networking standards -- and then people try to make it sound as if this is just another subjective rant against Apple by bitter Microsoft fanboys.

Jules' point about sorting by file types is a valid point. You can call it a "paradigm shift" if you really want to talk about standard computing operations in such terms, but the fact of the matter is that file type sorting is more granular than file "kind" sorting, and thus offers greater control and better organization. To try to turn that into an "apples and oranges" comparison is just dissembling. It's like saying that a programming language that only offers 3 operands is just as good as a language that offers 9, and furthermore that the 3 operands can be made to do the same things that the 9 can, and it's more elegant because there are fewer fundamental choices -- that may be true, but it still doesn't invalidate the point that 9 operands is better than 3.

macs suck

[Tsakali_]

looks like someone upset the mustache

[Geebs]

No, it's not.. It's just how it is.

and a 486 is slower than an AMD - that's just how it is. A fullscreen button is an advantage for me. I shouldn't have to calibrate each application window by tediously dragging the corner and repositioning the window so that next time it approximates a fullscreen.

Use the mouse. You also have to hold control, command or one of those buttons while selecting groups or clicking on individual files. You can do the same thing in Windows.

Doesn't work the same. You can hold down shift to select a contiguous grouping of files, and you can hold down command to select non-contiguous files.

So far, so good.

The problem is combining these two to select multiple groupings of files.

Look at the last image I posted. I achieved that selection with four mouse clicks. It'd require at least 8 clicks, if not 13, with OSX.

The way I achieved that in xp was to click the first file of the first group of files, hold down shift, and then click the last file of the first group. Then I let go of shift, held down ctrl, selected the first file of the second group, then held down shift, and selected the last file of the second group, and voila.

In OSX, if you try to do that, the minute you try to select the second grouping, you lose the first, even when you hold down the command key.

I know you're in grad school and thus part of the academic elite, but you really need this book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0764576755/ref ... 746&sr=1-1

What would that book help me with? There are plenty of good websites with info, and 3rd party apps that address some of the issues I have.

Seriously Jules, HOLD DOWN THE APPLE KEY AND SELECT THE TWO GROUPS OF FILES. It's not that hard....

[saturn]

lol, I can't believe I read all the shit in this thread.

When I got my first Mac 3 years ago I had to get used to some interface things that are different like the maximize button that maximizes the window to maximum available space instead of fullscreen.
Now I've bought my second Mac cause I have formed the opinion that it just works better and takes away hours of tweaking, formatting, installing, defragmenting I had to do on my PC with XP.

Reading Jules whining reminds me of my first week with OS X in which I had to throw away my past experience with computers which had been dominated by the Windows OS the previous 12 years. Learn to adapt and realise that your workflow isn't dependant of how you select two multiple groups of files or other trivial things.

[Foo]

Now I've bought my second Mac cause I have formed the opinion that it just works better and takes away hours of tweaking, formatting, installing, defragmenting I had to do on my PC with XP.

You didn't have to do any of that shit, you chose to.

Buy a PC, it comes with XP on it. Put your name in, maybe a few network settings all in a wizard, and you're good to start.

Most of the brand boxes come with recovery boot options where you select an option and it rolls your PC back to factory settings.

If you spent hours defragging, formatting, installing and tweaking your PC, either you were fucking it up, bought a duff box, or are a complete sucker for making your life more complicated than it needed to be.

[R00k]

But it's so hard to use Windows!!!!1