SCCC

[Cory]

socialism sounds shit on paper

shut up commie.

[EtUL]

good one.

[R00k]

I've had many an internet argument about how police need to use force as a last resort and stop being so itchy on their trigger fingers.

Sorry for bringing this up again but this quote itself is the counter-point that people who go through "rigoruous" qualification procedures to get permits and those that have been smart enough to become familiar with their weapons at training courses and the shooting range:

If the police "need to use force as a last resort and stop being so itchy on their trigger fingers."...how the fuck are you gonna expect the average Joe to not shoot people as often if not more than cops in crazy situations?

Think about this...paranoia is contagious and it feeds itself. Police (unfortunately in some cases...not all) have to put themselves through a ton of bullshit and abuse everyday. Lots of people distrust their police forces and some people fear or hate them. Cops spend each and every day thinking the absolute worst in people and are fully convinced that their life is in danger every second because everyone dislikes them. Otherwise they wouldn't be so twitchy during pull overs these days because a few crazy people actually shot cops during pull overs. I'd guess it'd be the same for a military man behind enemy lines...let's not forget some of the utterly crazy shit that happens in war (from all sides) because weapons where available in a non-combat situation.

Police officers in some areas think everyone could be packing, is willing to pull it out and use it against them in a stressful situation. If they don't think that, they make it clear to you that if you try ANYTHING unexpected they will shoot you. That's the typical tone they take with people who do dumb things behind the wheel and don't follow orders...before they taze them.

Seriously...if you are ever raided by the SWAT team...do NOT move and follow their orders EXACTLY. They will kill you and are trained to do just that against threats without hesitation.

I'd say it's safe to say that if trained, professional people can shoot people in the heat of the moment...Joe Blow would prolly do it, too.

BTW...Turing...you posted that a smaller guy with a gun would be more prepared to handle a larger, more powerful person. That is the exact situation where a smaller guy could "put the fear in" and pull out his piece to wave it around. I apply this theory that people act differently when they're armed and connect it directly to the same social problems as road rage....people have a "shield" between themselves and the target of their anger...therefore they're more liberated (like booze) in their reactions...so they scream at people sitting in traffic but would act perfectly normal on the street or in a social situation if someone bumped into them or cut in line at a queue.

Whenever I'm walking down the street and me and another person "mirror" passing movements and can't progress for a second or two...I laugh. Most people do. But in traffic...that person might get mad, scream, give me the finger or actually try to do something stupid. I think a weapon adds that same "shield" safety blanket of lessened critical thinking and can promote stupidity and unintended violence to new levels.

So fuck you.

Not to mention that people who own guns and shouldn't cause violent situations to escalate because they don't know not to pull a gun unless it has to be used.

But I see you're still ignoring the studies that say more carry permits equals less violent crime.

You're thinking with your gut, like Dubya. But in your case that could also lead to diabetes or heart disease.

[tnf]

the only major gun incident at the school i work at happened about 5 years ago (i posted about it here when it happened I think and ahev mentioned it before). kid brought a gun to try suicide by cop...he couldn't pull the trigger on himself so he basically forced the swat team to do it - he advanced on them with a loaded pistol in his hands (had already shot it into the ceiling so they knew it was real) so they hit him about 10 times. he lived. swat got a ton of flak from some of the public going on about why they couldn't have used "stun grendades" or "sleeping gas" (seriously someone asked that) or bean bag bullets or shot him in the knee or even just shot the gun out of his hand as he waved it around in front of them. People seem to have a very idealized view of how the whole system works and the fact that the cops aren't going to use less force then they are faced with no matter who is wielding the weapon - why the hell should they use bean bag bullets against a person with real ones who, as far as they know, will use them? My desk is about 3 feet from where they shot him.

I don't see teachers or students with guns helping much (you could pose hypotheticals where a gun could save the day, of course, but i think the majority of the cases things wouldn't go as good as people may hope). And if the colleges are following suit with what is going on in the high schools, you'd end up with some high strung student blowing away a prof who gave him an F or busted him for cheating or whatever. And if they were all 4.0 students with perfect discipline records my perspective wouldn't change much since knowing how to shoot a gun and knowing how and when to use a gun are two very different things.

Most of the people I know with CWPs are the ones who have a good case of little big man syndrome - my neighbor for example - he loves to tell me about how anyone who breaks into his house or this or that will get a .45 through their head...he has about 7 pistols, and he never shoots any of them. Just shows them to people and explains how we will blow away anyone who threatens him. You can literally see him puff his chest up as he goes on about it. He's about 5'5" and maybe 135 pounds soaking wet. He's the type I can see deciding to pull out the gun when someone is giving him shit just to play the tough guy role and then shitting himself when the other person either charges at him or pulls a gun themselves and shoots him while he freezes up in fear.

[Turing]

It's impossible to say how many less deaths there would have been. Who's to say some "properly trained" person wouldn't miss and blow off some random's head? Cops go through a dedicated regiment of training and they do it all the time. I can just imagine what a scared bio major with a gun would do.

All arming your entire population is going to do is guarantee that whenever any crime occurs someone will get shot.

You aren't very smart.

You're completely missing the idea of gun-as-deterrent. If people know that a local building is full of decently well-armed people, they are much less likely to throw down in the first place. School shooters certainly seem to be getting off on the fact that a gun gives them a powerful edge over others; taking away that edge takes away a lot of the motivation. Just imo. Can't get revenge on all those mean guys who picked on you if they're just as armed as you are.

[Turing]

well, speaking of knee-jerk reactions, surely the desire for students to carry is a stupid knee-jerk reaction to a percieved danger which is far less likely to kill an individual than, say, running with scissors. Bear in mind that the "equality of power" argument is clearly nonsense as it's precisely the fact that those psycho kids had guns that "empowered" them to do more than give someone a nasty paper cut.

Out of curiosity - if concealed carry laws mean that someone loses the right to carry if they get their gun out, what's the point? As per the above argument on probability, the logical point at which to allow concealed carry is the point at which the (negligable) benefits of carrying outweigh the (pretty small) risks

Well, you lose your gun if you get your gun out at a point that the cops decide was fucking retarded. Not just for brandishing it; only brandishing it without cause. Which I'm down with. It's not a toy, it's not cool, it's a fucking weapon.

Which is exactly why I love your point about the dildo guns. I'm all for it, and not just because I could stare at more cocks. Maybe if guns were less bad-ass and manly, people would be less inclined to be absolute dipshits just because they own one.

But the Equality of Power argument stands precisely because of why you're saying it's nonsense; there's absolutely no way to keep guns out of the hands of criminals in the United States. I am not exactly Mr. Connected, and I know at least one or two sources for nice, illegal handguns that I don't have to register for. Black market trade certainly isn't going to decrease if guns are made illegal. Ergo, it makes sense to give everyone equal access to the same tools; that way everyone can be on the same footing.

A pretty young girl in a rough neighborhood is much better off having a gun than not, assuming she has proper training and isn't a retarded muttonhead. And I would have to state that the risks of concealed carry pretty clearly get buried under the benefits, according to the statistics.

[Turing]

I've had many an internet argument about how police need to use force as a last resort and stop being so itchy on their trigger fingers.

Sorry for bringing this up again but this quote itself is the counter-point that people who go through "rigoruous" qualification procedures to get permits and those that have been smart enough to become familiar with their weapons at training courses and the shooting range:

If the police "need to use force as a last resort and stop being so itchy on their trigger fingers."...how the fuck are you gonna expect the average Joe to not shoot people as often if not more than cops in crazy situations?

Think about this...paranoia is contagious and it feeds itself. Police (unfortunately in some cases...not all) have to put themselves through a ton of bullshit and abuse everyday. Lots of people distrust their police forces and some people fear or hate them. Cops spend each and every day thinking the absolute worst in people and are fully convinced that their life is in danger every second because everyone dislikes them. Otherwise they wouldn't be so twitchy during pull overs these days because a few crazy people actually shot cops during pull overs. I'd guess it'd be the same for a military man behind enemy lines...let's not forget some of the utterly crazy shit that happens in war (from all sides) because weapons where available in a non-combat situation.

Police officers in some areas think everyone could be packing, is willing to pull it out and use it against them in a stressful situation. If they don't think that, they make it clear to you that if you try ANYTHING unexpected they will shoot you. That's the typical tone they take with people who do dumb things behind the wheel and don't follow orders...before they taze them.

Seriously...if you are ever raided by the SWAT team...do NOT move and follow their orders EXACTLY. They will kill you and are trained to do just that against threats without hesitation.

I'd say it's safe to say that if trained, professional people can shoot people in the heat of the moment...Joe Blow would prolly do it, too.

BTW...Turing...you posted that a smaller guy with a gun would be more prepared to handle a larger, more powerful person. That is the exact situation where a smaller guy could "put the fear in" and pull out his piece to wave it around. I apply this theory that people act differently when they're armed and connect it directly to the same social problems as road rage....people have a "shield" between themselves and the target of their anger...therefore they're more liberated (like booze) in their reactions...so they scream at people sitting in traffic but would act perfectly normal on the street or in a social situation if someone bumped into them or cut in line at a queue.

Whenever I'm walking down the street and me and another person "mirror" passing movements and can't progress for a second or two...I laugh. Most people do. But in traffic...that person might get mad, scream, give me the finger or actually try to do something stupid. I think a weapon adds that same "shield" safety blanket of lessened critical thinking and can promote stupidity and unintended violence to new levels.

So fuck you.

Except your complete argument is invalid because even YOU see the way that it meanders heavily into the "Cops have to deal with the scum of the earth every day" argument. There's no amount of gun safety training that is going to help you unlearn the lessons that give cops itchy trigger fingers, and there is very little chance that the average citizen is going to be exposed to even a tiny fraction of that.

As far as your "Shield" theory; people are allowed to fuck that one up once, as long as authorities find out. It's not an epidemic anywhere that concealed carry permits have been handed out. As long as the paperwork is done properly and people aren't allowed to have permits who shouldn't have them, then there's no problem. People with no criminal records or history of mental illness should have the right to be armed as long as they don't do something retarded; the moment they do something retarded, they should lose that right. Easy peasy.

Wow. I expected to have to write more to invalidate all those paragraphs, but you put in the extra effort to make sure it was easy. Thanks man.

[GONNAFISTYA]

lol

That's like saying that only people who register, are trained and go through a test before getting their driver's license will somehow get rid of stupid drivers and car accidents.

Fuck dude...you want destruction in smaller doses I'll go that route, too.

Obviously you think people need guns. Go right ahead and blow each other away you proper idiot.

[GONNAFISTYA]

But I see you're still ignoring the studies that say more carry permits equals less violent crime.

Hey man, if you wanna live in a world where everyone is packin and scared shitless enough to make sure their gun is on their fucking keychain that's your problem.

[R00k]

Fantasy and hyperbole, not to mention strawman.

[GONNAFISTYA]

Whatever. Go arm yourselves.

[Tsakali_]

"let me kill'em paw!!"

[Turing]

lol

That's like saying that only people who register, are trained and go through a test before getting their driver's license will somehow get rid of stupid drivers and car accidents.

Fuck dude...you want destruction in smaller doses I'll go that route, too.

Obviously you think people need guns. Go right ahead and blow each other away you proper idiot.

It doesn't get rid of them; it minimizes them. A single accident or misuse of the gun can have it taken away. If you yoinked people's drivers licenses after they made an illegal lane change, you can bet like hell you would have safer roads.

It's about responsible people having the means to equalize any situation. I'm okay with that. You're somehow afraid of weapons and think that you have to be a paranoiac. Does carrying around a spare tire make you paranoid? It's not -that- likely that your tire will blow out, why bother unless you're some sort of crazy paranoiac?

[Geebs]

I think that there's a bit of a cultural difference in this thread whereby the non-Americans just fundamentally find the idea of going around armed very paranoiac and depressing because, TBH, the chance of being affected by violent crime in the US is vanishingly small compared to perceived risk. Especially the whole armed-society-is-a-polite-society thing - people should be polite DESPITE being armed, not because of.

The other point us eurofags don't like is that cannoning up is always easier to than getting rid of weapons; and arms races never did anyone any good.

The other contextual point we generally fail to get is that in the USA it's absolutely fine to carry a fucking bazooka down the street as long as it's not concealed

[Tsakali_]

what the hell are you talking about

[MKJ]

[vileliquid1026]

Instead of less guns in the US, they should just have less crazy people in the US. Problem solved.

OH great! Problem solved! The world will never run out of an endless supply of crazies. What'd are we supposed to to? Shoot em?

I don't know why anyone argues in the threads like this, or global warming, or iraq, or bush...neither side is going to concede and see the other way, and it usually just turns into a barrage of name calling and olos

Don't most if not all Q3W threads end up like this anyway? This forum is actually full of intelligent people who state their case, back it up with fact, insert their opinion... and then just call each other douchefaggots.

[Denz]

get a roomful of suicidals together and have a good time.

[Peenyuh]

and arms races never did anyone any good.

Not true. It kept the economies of alot of countries from crashing fer a long time. Jobs. Parties.

[YourGrandpa]

Geebs was obviously drunk typing....


People in America who carry/own weapons aren't generally paranoid. They do it because they can. These people also have health insurance, auto insurance and life insurance. All of which are simply precautionary devices that help protect you from the unknown. To make the argument that everyone who has health insurance is paranoid about getting sick would be preposterous.

[Jackal]

Geebs was obviously drunk typing....


People in America who carry/own weapons aren't generally paranoid. They do it because they can. These people also have health insurance, auto insurance and life insurance. All of which are simply precautionary devices that help protect you from the unknown. To make the argument that everyone who has health insurance is paranoid about getting sick would be preposterous.

You're comparing apples and oranges. The only reason to carry a weapon is because you think you may have to use it. Otherwise you'd be content walking around like a normal person. Having health insurance is just plain smart because, without fail, people get sick and need medical attention at some point in their lives. Having health insurance is also a measure of financial security as well.

[seremtan]

I think that there's a bit of a cultural difference in this thread whereby the non-Americans just fundamentally find the idea of going around armed very paranoiac and depressing because, TBH, the chance of being affected by violent crime in the US is vanishingly small compared to perceived risk. Especially the whole armed-society-is-a-polite-society thing - people should be polite DESPITE being armed, not because of.

The other point us eurofags don't like is that cannoning up is always easier to than getting rid of weapons; and arms races never did anyone any good.

speak for yourself

in fact, speak for yourself minus most of europe, many countries of which have quite considerable levels of private gun ownership. buying a gun a out of paranoia is stupid, but then so is doing anyway for that reason. depriving people of the right to own a gun is depriving them of a liberty, pure and simple

The other contextual point we generally fail to get is that in the USA it's absolutely fine to carry a fucking bazooka down the street as long as it's not concealed

yeah, good point

[EtUL]

Whatever. Go arm yourselves.

Glad I have your approval I've been looking at this ruger

[Peenyuh]

The other contextual point we generally fail to get is that in the USA it's absolutely fine to carry a fucking bazooka down the street as long as it's not concealed

Actually, that is a complete un-truth.

[EtUL]

The other contextual point we generally fail to get is that in the USA it's absolutely fine to carry a fucking bazooka down the street as long as it's not concealed

Yeah, and the NRA and other 2nd amendment supporters favor private citizens having nuclear weapons in their basement