The Bible and brainwashing your kids

[[xeno]Julios]

Interesting how you bring that up. One book I have here on my shelf is called The Sound of the One Hand. It's about Zen Buddhism. Here a choice quote from a Zen master, which gives insight into their take on the value of the written word and encoding these experiences into language/propositions: "All the scriptures are only paper good for wiping off shit."

that is interesting. I noticed similar ideas being hinted at in the book: "The quantum and the lotus". (good book with good ideas but flawed in a few ways, imo).

[[xeno]Julios]

Sure, if I can manage to attain that feeling without self-deception (or brain damage) I wouldn't mind. Back to what I referred to in the other thread, you may be able to induce a similar sensation by trancranial magnetic stimulation (TMS) through a certain pattern of stimulation on the occipatal lobe. Although I hear TMS exposure may not be safe over the long term.

Meditation however, seems to be beneficial, from what little scientific data there is about it. Peel away the religious associations and meditation could be something to consider.

The question of self deception is interesting, and extremely key to this whole issue.

From what I understand, the experience, by virtue of it being an experience and not a "cognition", is not something that can be proven "false".

It doesn't make sense to describe it as true or false, and hence self-deception is a moot point.

From what I have been able to understand through both my own insight, and ideas I've read, is that one aspect of this experience is the dissolution of the sense of self. The interesting thing is that when you are in this state of being, you truly have no fear of death, since you understand that you are always in a process of constant death and rebirth (which itself is very interesting considering this is mirrored by the fact that your brain is always in a state of flux. You are never quite the same person at any two points in time).

Now it is absurd to question whether or not you should have a fear. If you don't fear death, then death simply does not bug you. We need not even go into the reasons you do not fear death, or the cognitive explanation for this state of mind. The simple truth is that you are no longer clining to the desire to be alive forever.

Now obviously you can't be in this state of mind permanently (afaik), but the idea is that you can prepare yourself for death more easily, if you cultivate this experience.

And in true bottom up fashion, there is much positive utility to this experience.

Ever notice how monks, or highly spiritual elements with any given religion, be they hindus, sufis, or deeply spiritual christians, are beautiful people? They're wise and treat other people with compassion. The same could be said about people who have never heard of religion - perhaps they simply got to that state of mind without scripture, or perhaps they communed with nature so much that they learnt its lessons directly.

And it goes without say that meditation has a host of physical and mental health benefits...

all these things to me suggest that there is something worthwhile underneath, and it doesn't rest with doctrine.

Btw the TMS device your talking about, is called the god helmet I think. Haven't looked it up, but heard someone talking about it in class once.

[Massive Quasars]

Jules, I know an experience is not something to be proven "false". What I was wondering initially is whether you would draw certain conclusions from such experiences. Conclusions which may become one's personal dogma.

If I understand your post correctly, you're trying to seperate the dogma from the experience.

[[xeno]Julios]

yes - dogma would be dangerous.

Ideas that describe the experience, or suggestions on how to attain it, perhaps in an attempt to help others attain it/recognize it, would be different, though.

One thing that I have read about zen buddhist scholars, is that they confirm each others insights through experimentation. These experiments are, however, empirical only to the practitioner (or contemplative, as I think they are called). There is, built into their emergent philosophy, an inherent flexibility. From what I remember reading, in the same way the scripture often purports itself to be perfect, many of the earliest buddhist thinkers explicitly deny this notion.

This is perhaps one reason why you don't see buddhist monks imposing their way of life upon others with the same violence and urgency as many other religions have and do.

[Massive Quasars]

This is probably why Buddhism has gained a foothold in the west. Though often not in the same form as it exists in the east.

[Guest]

PH, curb your nonsense. I won't speak for atheists, but atheist or not, they are people that are more than the sum or their faith or lackthereof.

Shouldn't you be slamming the liberals over the Gomery inquiry or something?

I need curb nothing. Athiests who bitch and whine and attack others are like the growls of an empty stomach.

As to the Liberals mess: I never liked that cretin Chrétien and as usual blame the French and their thirst for seperatism for this drama.

I do find it funny that no matter what outrageous or even mildly offensive statement I make I get these interesting assumptions as to my positions, but carry on since it encourages me to poke.

There's a few comments I'd like to touch on but I'll comment on this one.

First of all I'm a true Atheist. I'm as nonbeleiving as nonbeleiving goes. Now put yourself in my shoes for a minute where you walk around in a world where what seems like 99% of the world beleives in some imaginary superbeing.

If you knew for certain that almost the whole world beleives in a lie you would of course want to tell everyone. It's a lot like a religious extremist when you think about it except we don't beleive on faith. Some people will argue I have faith that I'm correct and that there are no gods but to them I simply say I also have faith rocks have no emotions, santa doesn't exist, tooth fairy etc etc... You can call it faith if you want to I call it common sense.

It's difficult to see everyday the problems with society because of this ultimate con, nothing, no conman, no nazi spindoctors, no bullshitter, rep, no one, can compare to a lie like religion. It's the mother of all lies and most people refuse to see it arguing the most retarded ideas I've ever heard about since I've become an atheist.

[Hannibal]

Thanks for the clarification Jules. I highly recommend William James on this topic (specifically "The Will to Believe" and "Varieties of Religious Experience")...not comprehensive per se, but both are provocative and delightful reads.

[GONNAFISTYA]

D3 christian games review

Haha, the comments are great on all of the reviews.

I think it's quite funny that they denounce a game and tell Christians not to buy it. After all, the game deals with a huge faculty of their religion: Hell. But it seems they aren't willing to discuss it from a first person view which - to me - would be a cool way for a priest to scare his congregation back into form with surround sound and a huge projector.

I think it odd that they think that Christians shouldn't see Hell in the game, since this is a place most Christians don't want to go after their life on earth. Shouldn't this be an opportunity for the faithful to use it as a reinforcement of "being good or you'll go to Hell...cause God loves you"?

As a twenty-one year old I have to say I was freaked out, disturbed, and horrified by Doom III’s content.

Good. That was the point of the game. Mission accomplished.

I can’t imagine what a thirteen year old would feel like. After hours of exposure to this game, I could see a child’s attitude and personality change because of this game.

Ya....a demon will possess him. :lol:

This whole review was pointless as all it did was reinforce their twisted view that they, their children and their religion are being persecuted and - childishly - accuse id of being satanic or occultist. This...to me...is just another battle cry as video games are evil and want to twist your children into zombies....or sumthin like that.

[edit]

Neutral -- I see no evidence of any satanic cult influence on ID's employees. Simply using geometric symbols like a star inside a circle or a cross where the horizontal portion is below the vertical line's midsection doesn't strike me as a satanic plot any more than seeing a rainbow suggests a meteorological conspiracy to endorse sodomy. That some deviant groups through the years have attempted to appropriate innocuous symbols for their own uses doesn't mean that we Christians should acknowledge and grant them that conceptual seizure. Fashions and fads form and fade, but God remains the same today, yesterday, and forever, and his Word will not pass away. The game's grotesque monsters and environment, against which the player fights, I should add, could serve as a faint echo of the real and eternal horror that awaits anyone unwashed by the blood of Jesus Christ, and for that reason primarily (as it provides a platform on which one could share what Scripture says about hell) would I recommend it to everyone. My Ratings: [3 / 3]
--Ramon Ruenes IV, age 32

I'm glad this Christian has a brain. Unfortunately several "True Believers" probably want him dead.

[Guest]

Religious nuts like Halo!

[GONNAFISTYA]

An interesting find with Christians asking Atheists a few simple questions about "What if the cosmos is all there is?": ]Clicky

What I find sad about those 11 questions is that they all tend to display a desperate need to have hope or a reason for all of it. It seems, from their questions, that they are questioning whether anything is worth it if everything ultimately blinks out of existance.

Questions such as:

Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?

What kind of question is this? It is a pointed question designed to get a desired response from an Atheist....that response being an agreement that there is some underlying purpose or design. So the question is moot.

I think that's a pathetic stance to base your arguement. From what I can see here, they're saying if there is no God and life is nothing but a product of atoms and particles then there is no purpose to life. No reason to continue. No significance to any of it.

It seems suicidal.

They link the existance of God to morality, which is convenient for them as you can't argue the nessessity of morality...so ultimately you can't argue the nessessity of God. It's a circular arguement that gets nowhere, does not allow fair debate and ultimately leaves their religion - in their own mind - safe from disproval.

I'm not so much an Atheist as I am someone who will remonstrate the Christian religion.

[Guest]

I love this question

Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham?

Both are pathelogical liars, one kills you for knowing the truth and the other would like to.