Auto Bailout Failed, going to be a bumpy day on Wall Street

[Massive Quasars]

Hadn't followed. Good to hear.

[shaft]

that's all they deserve

go to college or start your own business if you want to make more

i have spoken

i'm afraid your wrong. now get back to work you whiner.

you're

[hate]

so true.

hate for mod.

[SoM]

booo, Canada to give em $3.5 bill

http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CT ... b=CP24Home

let em rott i say

TV said 3.5 but they exagurate anyways,

[shadd_]

you're

That's an incomplete sentence.

[Dr_Watson]

that's all the loan is meant to do..

allow time to prepare for Chapter 11 in 3-4 months.

it was discussed in the Senate hearings..

the way I heard it the gov should wait until companies file chapter 11 then bail them out.
if they file bankruptcy before the loans are handed out the lender (gov) moves to the front of the line for payback if liquidation happens; minimizing risk to taxpayer money. They can then also have a guarantee that the loan money will be spent on restructuring and a more stable future and not pissed away on executive year end bonuses or some other rub and tug b.s.

[R00k]

don't be fooled by any outside information

it's all concocted and misconstrued to death..


i'm for the 'loan' so others don't suffer


i have spoken...

where are you getting all your anecdotal information? does everyone you know make $100 an hour and not give a shit about the job they're doing?

are you dying to teach them a lesson?

[Fender]

One of my best friends from high school quit his sales/management job and started as some sort of electrical apprentice at Ford. In his own words they started the day with an hour and a half or so of just hanging out in the break room, followed by a couple of hours out on the floor, then a 1.5 - 2 hour lunch, a couple more hours of work, then another hour break or so. I don't know exactly what his wage is/was, but I'm sure it was more than his previous position which was probably in the $60k - $70k / year range. And Ford's benefits would be WAY better.
And don't forget he was just an apprentice, then comes journeyman and finally master.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Emp ... ourly_Rate

[shadd_]

One of my best friends from high school quit his sales/management job and started as some sort of electrical apprentice at Ford. In his own words they started the day with an hour and a half or so of just hanging out in the break room, followed by a couple of hours out on the floor, then a 1.5 - 2 hour lunch, a couple more hours of work, then another hour break or so. I don't know exactly what his wage is/was, but I'm sure it was more than his previous position which was probably in the $60k - $70k / year range. And Ford's benefits would be WAY better.
And don't forget he was just an apprentice, then comes journeyman and finally master.

i'm sure there is some fat to trim. however, what should an electrician be doing when everything is running good? should he sweep the plant floor or go test drive some cars? the electrician is there for when a problem happens. he could have days where he does nothing, or days where he is really busy. it just depends on what breaks down.

maybe they should keep the electricians on call. having the plant shutdown for a few hours while the electrician jumps out of bed is no big deal.

[R00k]

We've had a Ford glass plant here for as long as I can remember, and I've known a lot of people who worked there.

They've all retired with full pay and health benefits for themselves and their families.

I would never argue that there isn't some fat to trim in the unions, like shadd said.

But to say that unions are the root of all the big 3's problems, that there are no positives to them existing, and that the manufacturers would be able to turn things around if we got rid of them, is pure hyperbole and popular myth. It's been propagated by people who want to bust up unions, and now it's being propagated by people who believe it just because they feel like it's "common sense."

It's not true. And now we're about to see a few million of America's workers lose their job due to this urban legend. Right in the middle of a deep recession, no less.

[shadd_]

people talk about companies moving to mexico, etc, because the wages are cheaper. thats partly true, but the biggest savings are tax breaks, no safety regulations, no envrionmental concerns and no financial oversight by government.

sounds to me like companies have no problem operating a substandard working environment. sounds like how they used to do business here pre-union days.

[hate]

One of my best friends from high school quit his sales/management job and started as some sort of electrical apprentice at Ford. In his own words they started the day with an hour and a half or so of just hanging out in the break room, followed by a couple of hours out on the floor, then a 1.5 - 2 hour lunch, a couple more hours of work, then another hour break or so. I don't know exactly what his wage is/was, but I'm sure it was more than his previous position which was probably in the $60k - $70k / year range. And Ford's benefits would be WAY better.
And don't forget he was just an apprentice, then comes journeyman and finally master.

i'm sure there is some fat to trim. however, what should an electrician be doing when everything is running good? should he sweep the plant floor or go test drive some cars? the electrician is there for when a problem happens. he could have days where he does nothing, or days where he is really busy. it just depends on what breaks down.

maybe they should keep the electricians on call. having the plant shutdown for a few hours while the electrician jumps out of bed is no big deal.

lol u are fucking clueless...

[shadd_]

rofl, i've worked in industry for 20 years, union and non-union.

you walk into a plant, see a guy sleeping and think you have it all figured out.

stoopid kids.. no wonder you can't find a good job.

[hate]

I consulted your idiot bosses

grunt

and am now retired

[shadd_]

ouch lol, oh so wrong..again

there is a chinese food place down the street looking for a dish washer. send me your resume and i can forward it for you.

[StormShadow]

Actually, auto workers get paid ABSURD wages ($100 bucks an hour for manual labor?).

assuming for a moment that that's true, since when were wages inversely related to the degree of physical labour a job involves? a brain surgeon is a 'manual labourer' - or should wages be inversely related to the weight of the objects you move around in your job?

Regardless of the actual per-hour rate, UAW workers get paid significantly more than their counterparts working for other car companies. Of course this has hobbled the Detroit auto industry. Not to say that lousy business decisions and general incompetence at the top haven't fucked up the auto industry more, but saying that the UAW has not been a major factor in the downfall of the US auto industry simply isn't accurate.

To answer your question, wages are not related to the *degree* of physical labor a job involves, but the skill and knowledge necesarry to do such a job, the importance of the job, and the amount of people in your field capable of replacing you.

[Peenyuh]

i'm sure there is some fat to trim. however, what should an electrician be doing when everything is running good? should he sweep the plant floor or go test drive some cars? the electrician is there for when a problem happens. he could have days where he does nothing, or days where he is really busy. it just depends on what breaks down.

maybe they should keep the electricians on call. having the plant shutdown for a few hours while the electrician jumps out of bed is no big deal.

I've been in manufacturing for nearly 20 years. Electricians, mechanical maintenance workers, and even janitors all have plenty of things to do. When things are running "smoothly", THAT is the time for maintaining your equipment, tooling, and supplies. Idle time in ANY manufacturing plant - by ANYONE - means someone is phuqing up.

Also, at this time, my shop is operating on survival mode. We even went to 4 days for a few weeks. We are breaking even - give or take a bit - and I know for a fact, that if we were a union shop, we would've folded by now. Unions are only helpful to the worker when economic times are good. When times get rough, unions kill jobs.

If cuts have to be made, in my opinion, they need to be made from the top down. The higher you go up the ladder, the more waste you'll find. The execs want to keep getting their gravy while taking the workers' taters.

[shadd_]

I've been in manufacturing for nearly 20 years. Electricians, mechanical maintenance workers, and even janitors all have plenty of things to do. When things are running "smoothly", THAT is the time for maintaining your equipment, tooling, and supplies. Idle time in ANY manufacturing plant - by ANYONE - means someone is phuqing up.

Also, at this time, my shop is operating on survival mode. We even went to 4 days for a few weeks. We are breaking even - give or take a bit - and I know for a fact, that if we were a union shop, we would've folded by now. Unions are only helpful to the worker when economic times are good. When times get rough, unions kill jobs.

If cuts have to be made, in my opinion, they need to be made from the top down. The higher you go up the ladder, the more waste you'll find. The execs want to keep getting their gravy while taking the workers' taters.

yes i agree wholeheartedly with most of your statement. i've been on both sides of the table as a union rep and company rep. i know plenty of union people who work as hard and care as much as any non-union worker. making blanket statements about unions not caring doesn't ring true when i know plenty of unionized workplaces willing to do whatever needs to be done to survive.

there are some shit unions out there for sure, but for every bad one you hear about, there is a hundred good ones you never hear about.

[GONNAFISTYA]

To be blunt....I'm fucking sick of hearing that it's a bad thing that "normal" people should earn a decent wage...especially when they're not the problem. I seriously have to fucking laugh at people saying unions are also the problem.

I mean.....some of you really need to listen to yourselves.....you're shitting on people for getting "paid" when their work habits are no different from any industry: you'll always find those who work hard and those who don't...on every job site in the universe whether it's a factory, office or shit pit. Shut the fuck up about that already.

I agree with Ron Jeremy: the real changes have to start from the top down. Quit shitting on people just because they can earn as much as a paper-shuffler on Wall Street when they aren't the ones making decisions that kill an industry or company.

Jesus christ people give so much undeserved respect to suits it's not even funny...and the suits are the problem.

[Peenyuh]

...i know plenty of union people who work as hard and care as much as any non-union worker. making blanket statements about unions not caring...

I never said anything like this. Union workers are same as any workers. They have just as much care, or non care, as the next guy. The way unions kill jobs in economic hardship is by limiting the choices the company can make. Of course the company will choose the most profitable way to keep their gravy train going... by tanking the company before hands get dipped in their pockets. My problem isn't with union workers. Nor is it really with unions. It's with the stand-offish, "we aint givin up nuthin" attitude that comes with most unions I've been exposed to. When money's so tight, the unions should give a little. If they do, the execs will have to move toward the center along with em. As it sits, the execs can just say "We can't work with these guys." and shrug their shoulders and cry to Uncle Sam for bailouts.

[GONNAFISTYA]

I think GM, et al should deserve the bailout if they promise 3 simple things:

- start creating high quality, practical products that people want to buy (why do I still see SUV ads on television?)
- keep their workforce intact (alot can be said about experienced, skilled workers) so that when their new product lines (the one's worth buying) are ready they can roll them out properly
- quit dumping millions upon millions of dollars on stupid things like high executive salaries (all of them...not just CEOs), private jets and sports arena sponsorships (how many "GM Places" does North America need?) I'm basically saying they should run their companies responsibly...something they just haven't done.

Seriously...those focusing on the unions aren't looking at the big picture. It's no surprise that the GOP focused on that and a bunch of brain-dead sheep followed their logic as the main thrust of their argument. Dumb fucks.

[Dr_Watson]

hold the phone... none of those 3 things are simple and are you saying you want the government to dictate their future business model?
is GM going to start making an official "peoples car"?

[GONNAFISTYA]

No. It's not just about products.

FFS....their whole approach to doing business is fucked and hemorrhages money by it's very nature. They aren't progressive thinkers, they can't see past the short term and they won't improve unless they reinvent themselves. They haven't learned anything in decades...especially from their competitors.

If they promise to continue acting like fucking idiots then let them die.

BTW....the government already dictates some of their future business model. EPA standards, safety standards, etc. It isn't that big of a stretch for government to demand results for their billions of never-ending subsidies.

[Dr_Watson]

you are incorrect. Government policy indirectly influences, not dictates.