[Alpha] CTF Layout - Thougts

[sumatra]

Hey there,

as I was in the right mood, I started again mapping. This time, it was more challenging, because I want to design a CTF-map.
I tried that before, but I was not satisfied with the result...

Today I blocked out a new layout that could work with some minor changes or improvements. It's a simple 180°-layout.
There is only a playerstart_deathmatch in both bases and Botplay isn't supported yet. It just gives you a feel of the floorplan and the items.
So I thought, maybe you let me know what you think of the current state AND general hints for creating a proper CTF-layout.

Thanks for any input in advance.

---

Here ist my current layout and some shots:

Layout itself



Bases



YA area



Mid



Download ~ 670kb

Cheers sum

[cityy]

Not sure about the 3 powerups - if you look at other ctf maps you see that they got 1 powerup in the middle (mostly quad or Regen) or 2 powerups in each base (mostly haste or regen). About the two YAs in mid: Imo armors in ctf should be picked up by the defense. No defensive player would go to mid and leave the flag alone only to collect a YA. I would replace them with railguns.
There are 3 ways into the flag room coming from infront of the flag right now - maybe add some sideway or a way from behind. You could also use a teleporter for that.
Just my thoughts - everything up to you anyway.

[Fjoggs]

Ooh ctf! My favourite. Gonna test it now.

[Fjoggs]

Ok, here's some quick comments before bed. I don't agree with cityy's points on powerups. Plenty of succesful ctf-maps in quake history used 3 PUs (One at each base, one in mid), including q3wcp9 which is one of the, if not the best quake3 ctf-map. Same goes for Armor positions. Flagdefender has the MH, and High/Middef has the YA near LG.

General feel:
The whole level feels cramped, especially the bases. I think the roof/ceiling should be placed 64u higher then what it is now, and maybe widen some of the floors, particulary the one where the flag is.
The Railgun is just crazy around mid. With good aim you'll lock down any movement in your own base seeing how you have to pass mid at the same spot to enter any of the entrances to the bases. I recommend to rework your mid, widen it a bit and create some sort of hallway that connects the two bases without actually passing the main part of the mid. Right now camping midfield is too strong. I'd suggest moving the QUAD to groundlevel, and not on top of the small platform. Then widen mid and do something about los, so you can sweep it from the lower levels.

Base:
Right now, getting the flag looks pretty impossible unless you're stacked on health/armor. The flagdefender can just camp the flagspot and LG/RL down anyone that manages to get past your 2nd defender. There's no way to sneak up on the flag right now. Coming from regen is just suicide, so you have to either take the jumppad where RG is, or move to the other side, where LG/YA is.
My suggestion is this. Extend the pit where RL is behind the flag and create a small room/hallway behind the flag, which you cant see from flag. This way attackers can strafe past and beneath the flagdefender, leaving him uncertain of their movements. Add two entrances out of it on flaglevel. One near SG and the other one on the opposite side. Illustration here:


This opens for more tactical approaches and not just hoping your aim is better then his. I'll create a demo if you dont understand my idea.

Also, what are these supposed to do? You need some serious speeds if you're gonna use them for strafejumping to the flag. Feels useless. I'd rather just made the pillars thinner if you did it for los-purposes.


That's all I could think of for now.

[v1l3]

What ever happened to pukka3ctf1?

[^Ghost]

not bad i ran through the map in cpm physics in about 10 seconds. those 2 pillar things that are stickin out can actually stay, they werent that hard to strafe on to just a decent cj (circle jump) or plasma hop will get to it

also like fjoggs said raise the ceiling a bit more, i found it quite annoying trying to rocket jump around when i couldnt get any distance cause the height on the ceiling was so low. other than that i didnt find any problems with it, but ill let the frag mappers judge you.

[cityy]

Ok, here's some quick comments before bed. I don't agree with cityy's points on powerups. Plenty of succesful ctf-maps in quake history used 3 PUs (One at each base, one in mid), including q3wcp9 which is one of the, if not the best quake3 ctf-map. Same goes for Armor positions. Flagdefender has the MH, and High/Middef has the YA near LG.

Ofc, you are right - I just minded the quake live maps. Never played that much q3. It was just how I like ctf maps - doesn't mean other methods dont work. Just thought of maps like troubled waters or scornforge.

[sock]

What ever happened to pukka3ctf1?

I personally found it frustrating to play because of all the doors, plus the corridors were extremely cramped, not much room to move around. I can only see 2 two reasons to add doors to maps, vis problems or player location clues, there always better solutions for player locations clues.

fjoggs - Totally agree.

Stop by the #cpmpickup IRC channel, there is always people there playing CTF. Even thou they play the same 3 stupid maps all the time, they do understand CTF gameplay extremely well. I highly recommend you spectate some of the matches, it will give some cool insight into current CTF gameplay styles.

[Fjoggs]

those 2 pillar things that are stickin out can actually stay, they werent that hard to strafe on to just a decent cj (circle jump) or plasma hop will get to it

getting there is easy, getting somewhere else is hard. Right now its just jump on them, and jump back. I cant think of anything you gain by jumping to them, other then leaving yourself exposed to RL splash damage.

Ofc, you are right - I just minded the quake live maps. Never played that much q3. It was just how I like ctf maps - doesn't mean other methods dont work. Just thought of maps like troubled waters or scornforge.

Sorry if I came off rude, just wanted to say that there's no best formula for powerups in a ctf map.
The only thing you should _NEVER_ use in a ctf map is BS. No splashdamage+enemy flag is a free cap. Oh and flight of course, but that's not allowed anywhere.

Stop by the #cpmpickup IRC channel, there is always people there playing CTF. Even thou they play the same 3 stupid maps all the time, they do understand CTF gameplay extremely well. I highly recommend you spectate some of the matches, it will give some cool insight into current CTF gameplay styles.

That goes for you too mister. Long time since we've had a chat!

[sumatra]

First of all, thanks to all of you, very nice advice you gave me to lead me into the right direction.

Ok, here's some quick comments before bed. I don't agree with cityy's points on powerups. Plenty of succesful ctf-maps in quake history used 3 PUs (One at each base, one in mid), including q3wcp9 which is one of the, if not the best quake3 ctf-map. Same goes for Armor positions. Flagdefender has the MH, and High/Middef has the YA near LG.

Yes, I also feel very comfortable with this kind of itemlayout. And IMO the map needs this loads of armor/health/PUs. Playtesting will show.

General feel:
The whole level feels cramped, especially the bases. I think the roof/ceiling should be placed 64u higher then what it is now, and maybe widen some of the floors, particulary the one where the flag is.
The Railgun is just crazy around mid. With good aim you'll lock down any movement in your own base seeing how you have to pass mid at the same spot to enter any of the entrances to the bases. I recommend to rework your mid, widen it a bit and create some sort of hallway that connects the two bases without actually passing the main part of the mid. Right now camping midfield is too strong. I'd suggest moving the QUAD to groundlevel, and not on top of the small platform. Then widen mid and do something about los, so you can sweep it from the lower levels.

I placed all ceilings higher, and widen some places to give more space for fights. I really have to unthink my general touney basics :-).
I tried to widen the mid and make it shorter at the same time. The LOS is dificult in some spots, but overall im satisfied. I added an extra lower route for more variation and put the quad back to the groundfloor.

Base:
Right now, getting the flag looks pretty impossible unless you're stacked on health/armor. The flagdefender can just camp the flagspot and LG/RL down anyone that manages to get past your 2nd defender. There's no way to sneak up on the flag right now. Coming from regen is just suicide, so you have to either take the jumppad where RG is, or move to the other side, where LG/YA is.
My suggestion is this. Extend the pit where RL is behind the flag and create a small room/hallway behind the flag, which you cant see from flag. This way attackers can strafe past and beneath the flagdefender, leaving him uncertain of their movements. Add two entrances out of it on flaglevel. One near SG and the other one on the opposite side.

The height difference is too high for stairs. Would have been annoying. Tried to work around this with two teleporters to make it more interesting for an attacker.
Should bring in some tactical elements, like you mentioned. I like that idea very much. Thanks for that hint.

Also, what are these supposed to do? You need some serious speeds if you're gonna use them for strafejumping to the flag. Feels useless. I'd rather just made the pillars thinner if you did it for los-purposes.

Those small steps are supposed to give you a direct way to flag. You don't need special strafeskills or serious speed to jump there. It's just another routevariety I would like to see in the base.

I personally found it frustrating to play because of all the doors, plus the corridors were extremely cramped, not much room to move around. I can only see 2 two reasons to add doors to maps, vis problems or player location clues, there always better solutions for player locations clues.

fjoggs - Totally agree.

Stop by the #cpmpickup IRC channel, there is always people there playing CTF. Even thou they play the same 3 stupid maps all the time, they do understand CTF gameplay extremely well. I highly recommend you spectate some of the matches, it will give some cool insight into current CTF gameplay styles.

Ye, I have already been there. I was also looking demos on challenge-tv to prepare for this kind of gamestyle.

Sidenote: pukka3ctf1 is paused. I'm stuck with it. Sock mentioned the issues the map has. I agree with him in every point.
Don't know if I ever finish it...


---

New MH-hallway behind flag


Altered Mid


So here is Alpha 012

I hope I didn't make it too complex in these two steps. Just let me know what you think of the changes.
Maybe the route variety/connectivity is too high now.. I already removed the teleporter from regeneration room. It is dispensable now IMO. Or even confusing...

If I reach a playable state, I'll add playerstarts. Then I would like to test it online with some ppl.

cheers sum

[Fjoggs]

To start off, the small platforms in the base is rather confusing. They're perfect examples of 125fps jumps. It's impossible to reach them with a single circlejump from flag unless you got stable 125 fps and you're playing online. You need 142 fps to make it offline without pmove fixed set to 1. (in VQ3, it's easy in cpm) I suggest making it easier. It's useless for attackers with 2 defenders on their ass trying to reach them. Strafing in the middle of a battle is alot harder then in the comfort of your own home (singleplayer )

Felt bored, so instead of drawing shit in photoshop, I simply made my ideas in radiant for easy understanding.

Starting off with MH room:
I like it, but right now it feels too easy for attackers. Teleporters are freepasses up a level, and a defender would have problems fending off several attackers at once. My suggestion is swapping the teles for a jumppad. This makes attackers spend more time and let's defenders catch up and intercept.
Also, this room looks perfect for regen now, and I suggest swapping MH and Regen.


Regenroom:
Now MH room. I suggest removing the pillars. Objects like this is incredibly annoying when you're trying to gain speed, and IMO it doesnt add anything to the gameplay.


Stairs:
There's a lot of IMO unnecesary stairs in this map. You add small heights here and there for seemingly no reason. Here's an example.


The PG ledge slows down all movement coming from base through it and from mid. It's annoying, and I'd rather see it levelled. Also, the jumppad right now feels a bit out of place. I suggest moving it like this, to make it "safer" to use and not so much in the way for anyone coming from mid.


Quad:
When you added the new route below mid, the quadposition felt a bit awkward. Also, the holes and supportbeams you placed on the toplevel is rather annoying. You fixed much of the losproblems in mid by simply adding that lower route, because now anyone whoring mid wont control the entire map, and flagcarriers can simply escape downstairs. I suggest something like this for the upper midarea/quad.


I know im going a bit back and forth, but ctf requires a lot of thinking and I change my mind all the them. Will prolly change it again when you release a new test.
One quick final note. When you design a base, think about a defender that has to report where a flagcarrier is escaping. "Flag going high" "Flag going low" Flag going mid".
The left path makes it hard to report high/mid because he can go both after passing the wall without flagdefender knowing, but you should just think about this when you create something new. It's more of a pointer then anything

[MKJ]

sounds more like you want the map to adapt to your proven strategy than vice versa.

[Fjoggs]

What excactly is that supposed to mean?

[sumatra]

Update: Alpha 016

- redesigned mid
- swapped regen/mh
- redesigned area behind flag
- changed upper ya to ra
- added little helper at RL in bases.
- removed some redundant stairs and height differences

Thanks for your feedback Fjoggis..

Others?


sum

[sumatra]

No other opinions? Come on guys...

[dichtfux]

I gave it a try but I don't play enough CTF to give you good feedback, sorry.

Some things I noticed, don't take them too serious:

• The bases felt pretty good to me (both size and layout), but the central room seemd a bit small.
• The whole map also seems smaller than many CTF maps I've seen (flag to flag distance).
• The ceiling is a bit low everywhere, making the map feel a bit pressing. This is only because I'm used to CTF maps where the rooms are like 300 ft high though.

[AEon]

Personally I hate CTF, but at least I built one relatively small CTF map.

Not sure if this is modern style gameplay, but I found it very strange to have a Quad in the map, and on my path to the other flag I get a MH, plus, when I take the long path (back side of the opposing flag) I also get a Regen. Thus powered up you just slaughter everyone, grab the flag, and return to your base. OK, I am bad at the game, and the bots where on "easy" ... still made me wonder.

I did not find the map too small, actually, for a 3on3.

But then again what do I know .

[Fjoggs]

Not sure if this is modern style gameplay, but I found it very strange to have a Quad in the map, and on my path to the other flag I get a MH, plus, when I take the long path (back side of the opposing flag) I also get a Regen. Thus powered up you just slaughter everyone, grab the flag, and return to your base. OK, I am bad at the game, and the bots where on "easy" ... still made me wonder.

Good luck grabbing those in a single run versus real players.

[walkingjukebox]

HI!!
I am in search of a new map to add to my server, thats how I found this thread.
I run a pretty active q3a ctf server, and my clan mates and I are always looking for new maps to play. As I understand this map is still in testing and if you would like to test/work with real players on finishing/adjusting this to completion, I would like to get together with you and load it on my server, making it easier to view the gameplay and make adjustments.

[spookmineer]

Any mapper would love some feedback after some people played it online for a bit... I guess it's safe to say you can d/l the zip and put it on your server.

From (little) personal experience, it is harder for some to explore/test a map than to just have a blast and frag any enemy you see Make sure everyone knows it's an alpha, getting a chance to make the end result better and more enjoyable for them in the end.

[sumatra]

Wow, thanks for the fast replies.

I gave it a try but I don't play enough CTF to give you good feedback, sorry.

Some things I noticed, don't take them too serious:

* The bases felt pretty good to me (both size and layout), but the central room seemd a bit small.
* The whole map also seems smaller than many CTF maps I've seen (flag to flag distance).
* The ceiling is a bit low everywhere, making the map feel a bit pressing. This is only because I'm used to CTF maps where the rooms are like 300 ft high though.

After playing it online, the tenor was, its even a little bit too huge in some spots. Especially the lower route to the backside of the flag.
I'm still searching for a solution for that..

Maybe I should really raise the ceiling a bit more. Have already raised it a bit in the past.

Personally I hate CTF, but at least I built one relatively small CTF map.

Not sure if this is modern style gameplay, but I found it very strange to have a Quad in the map, and on my path to the other flag I get a MH, plus, when I take the long path (back side of the opposing flag) I also get a Regen. Thus powered up you just slaughter everyone, grab the flag, and return to your base. OK, I am bad at the game, and the bots where on "easy" ... still made me wonder.

I did not find the map too small, actually, for a 3on3.

But then again what do I know .

Thanks for the Feedback, even if you don't like CTF :-).

It is somewhat of a modern style, that you put a quad/heavy PU in the middle. Especially in CTF matches with promode.
I hope we see, how it works for the clan of walkingjukebox.

HI!!
I am in search of a new map to add to my server, thats how I found this thread.
I run a pretty active q3a ctf server, and my clan mates and I are always looking for new maps to play. As I understand this map is still in testing and if you would like to test/work with real players on finishing/adjusting this to completion, I would like to get together with you and load it on my server, making it easier to view the gameplay and make adjustments.

This sounds like a jackpot. I'm heavily interested in your feedback. I send you an pm, so we can contact via irc or icq to clarify the particulars.. Thanks in advance though..

Any mapper would love some feedback after some people played it online for a bit... I guess it's safe to say you can d/l the zip and put it on your server.

Yep, you're right, go ahead!!!

I keep you posted if I got any news.
Cheers...

[maz0r]

As a regular (and quite good tbh) ctf player I jumped around in your last alpha yesterday. Will give some more feedback as soon as possible, maybe tonight or tomorrow.
In short: It's already quite ok, but lacks some interesting areas for fighting. Mid could be a tad bigger, lower route is covered way too much. IMO the whole map could be more open.

But beware I don't have a clue of cpma (promode that is) so if you are aming straight for pm1 gameplay I'm maybe the wrong person to give advices.

Edit: The offer walkingjukebox made is actually really interesting. Maybe I can also contribute someting to your search when the alpha of my upcoming ctf map is (finally) finished?! Would be a blast!

[sock]

The offer by walkingjukebox is damn amazing if you ask me, I was looking for a clan/players to test my own CTF map back at the beginning of the year and eventually I just gave up and shelved the map. CTF maps are typically the hardest thing to create right because bots are completely hopeless at them, they can only be tested by players.

Good luck with the clan testing, if you get any feedback, I would love to hear (in this thread) of what was suggested/changed to your map.

[walkingjukebox]

I will be running the map tonight on my server (most likly around midnight).... anyone & everyone is welcome to come if intrested.My user name is IDAHO. Server info is in the signature v 1.32
Wish us luck on making improvements.

To anyone who is serious into making CTF maps, I would like nothing more than to lend a hand
with your project, seeing as there are not many good CTF maps that have recently come out.
I can always be reached on my clan website.

Maz0r Edit: The offer walkingjukebox made is actually really interesting. Maybe I can also contribute someting to your search when the alpha of my upcoming ctf map is (finally) finished?! Would be a blast!

I look forward to your upcomming ctf map and would like to help.

and to sock, Dust off that map and lets get it rollin again!

[Hipshot]

To anyone who is serious into making CTF maps, I would like nothing more than to lend a hand
with your project, seeing as there are not many good CTF maps that have recently come out.
I can always be reached on my clan website.

I have had a lot of ctf ideas from time to time, but have skipped it just because it can't be done without a team of humans, as sock says, bots can't be used for even trying to try a layout...
Maybe I should take this up again...

edit:sorry sumatra, I stole your thread--