Inf_dm1 Alpha

[Infernis]

Your right about actually doing it!

But because I've got little time, I want to make sure I immediately take the right direction before having to do it all over again.

I want to spent my time wisely on it

[Todtsteltzer]

I think there will always be a phase of 'trial and error' when building a map .

[Infernis]

Hint taken..

/me starts building!

[Infernis]

When Quake3world announced it was going to move servers I got nostalgic and I went through my old posts. Can't believe I didn't finish this one with such a wealth of feedback provided. I apologise!

So I found the map file on an old backup DVD and I got started again.

Changes:

Changed the room with the RL quite a bit.
Added a hole above the YA location so players can drop down.
Opened up the hallway connecting the YA room with the RL room.
Changed the spawn locations a bit.
Added a RA on the bridge in RL room and placed the RL on the ground floor.
Changed the target locations of the teleporters.
Changed the location of the Quad.
Switched to using Evillair his template textures and I added light ents.

I hope you all want to give it a go. The new .pk3 can be downloaded here. Ofcourse a screenshot is provided as well.

I think the layout is pretty much done. I would like comments on item placement and spawn locations. Bot support is added. They use most parts of the map but the YA area is really the hotspot.

[AEon]

First off, this is the first map in a very long time were I was scoring multi-kills with the RL against Hardcore bots... that alone really ups the fun factor of the map.

I like the template texture set, I actually was thinking of expanding that set and building a map out of it for real, only the one-color-look does give you a headache after some time, IMO (I know this is just for the alpha).

I am assuming FFA is the primary focus, due to the many bots you can play against?

• This is a real frag/splatter-fest of a map, where you totally rule with the RL, even the GL is useful with all the "cramped" areas, corridors, stairs, you get a lot out of splash damage. If that was the intent, IMO, then things work well. Note: "Cramped" in your map is actually good, because you still can move very fluidly.
• I miss the RG a bit (I always miss it ), but in this map it may not actually be very useful.
• IMO, the GL and the SG are too close to each other, there should be enough space elsewhere in the map to separate them?
• The RL arena is actually over-frequented by the bots, whereas the other TP room is rarely used / visited. IMO, it might help to place the RL or the PG in the second TP room to attract more bots (they love those two weapons).
• Alternate weapon placement: Put the PG on the floor of the 2nd TP room, move the GL were the SG is, place the SG where the PG is on the stairs. Quad might need to be placed elsewhere.
• Make the 2nd TP room (the non-RL one) larger, to allow for more epic battles here as well? Presently it works well to grab the Quad and pass through it to get the YA, or leave via TP, but you never really want to stay here, IMO.
• I am not so sure about the TPs, these are visual and path-wise focal points of two arenas, but using them is sorta a letdown. Are they really useful/required in the map? More tests show, they actually work quite well.
• Note, if you pick up the RA, go to the TP, you can then directly also grab the YA. Is this really intended? It might be better to either change the TP destination or place the YA elsewhere?
• I hope you will be adding a massive amount of sky to the map, the boxed-in feeling presently is a bit claustrophobic.
• This is purely "vague": But while your stairs work well in the map, gameflow-wise, the JPs actually feel like a hindrance, they are not really "fun" to use. I am not really sure why that is, maybe because they break the smooth gameflow you create with your stairs.

Hope that helps, a bit.

Update: Deleted a few comments plus updated others after more gaming.

[Infernis]

It sure helps AEon. I'm glad you had fun!

Primary focus is FFA but I was hoping to get away with tourney as well.

I changed the weapons like you suggested. The bots now also use the second TP room and fighting is less cramped and more scattered. Don't worry, it's still a real frag/splatter-fest of a map.

I also changed the TP destination near the YA to the second TP room [with PG]. Works quite well. I noticed that I can see opponents spawning. Which means I need more spawnpoints or less opponents. Working on that.

The plan was for this being indoor but with higher ceilings. I'll have a look at this when detailing starts.

Let's see if someone else picks it up before releasing another version.

Thanks so for AEon!

[dONKEY]

Holy crap...hey dude!!!

[AEon]

Glad my suggestions seem to have helped... you never can really know without really testing things, then the ideas may turn out to be less than useful .

Played the map in Tourney mode... must say that worked quite well too. Map was maybe a bit too large for tourney, but only barely. I liked that you could predict the path of your opponent (bot) in several areas, to then either fire a rocket where you expect the bot to show up or otherwise cut him off. E.g. in the RA room, when the bot takes one of the stairs to the TP, or when you see the bot in the Quad room, moving towards the LG room, and you see this from the YA, you then can take the shortcut to the RL room.

"The plan was for this being indoor but with higher ceilings. I'll have a look at this when detailing starts."
Some holes in the ceilings IMO would be enough, looking forward to see how you detail out things. Interesting that you actually have the discipline to "sketch out" the map first... I always started to add detail, and then changed to layout to fit the detail

[Fjoggs]

Always sad to see so many similar faces in an old thread, and having no idea where they went.

[Infernis]

Always sad to see so many similar faces in an old thread, and having no idea where they went.

When I saw that you replied I expected one of the old school mapping legends to have provided me with the feedback needed to make this play great. Oh well

[spookmineer]

Infernis!

I haven't been able to play the map yet (netbook, not installed Q3) but:



These colours! They are to die for! I can't believe no one mentioned this before me (ok, only commenting the colours, but still).
Maybe I'm mistaken (not having played the map) but this golden/yellow is the coolest I've seen ever. And I know how hard it is to light a map.

Again, not having played this map, does anyone disagree in the slightest?
The colours make (at least) the screenshot, and maybe the map - again not played it.

But those colours...

Oh, and the tiles in that screenshot seem to be misaligned.

[monaster]

Infernis!
These colours! They are to die for! I can't believe no one mentioned this before me (ok, only commenting the colours, but still).
Maybe I'm mistaken (not having played the map) but this golden/yellow is the coolest I've seen ever. And I know how hard it is to light a map.

Again, not having played this map, does anyone disagree in the slightest?

Totally agreed!

[Infernis]

Perhaps if AEon get's around to making a set of it we will see some maps using it. Otherwise stick to Evillair his set if you want to try it out

Anyone care to comment about the gameplay?

[Fjoggs]

Always sad to see so many similar faces in an old thread, and having no idea where they went.

When I saw that you replied I expected one of the old school mapping legends to have provided me with the feedback needed to make this play great. Oh well

ehehe, I'll try to jump around on it later today. Battling a monsterheadache atm. One too many last night.

[Infernis]

/me bumps this thread

[AEon]

Did you release a new version, I am still at inf_dm1g.pk3. After another 100 frags:

• The map pretty much works as it is... I'd really be surprised to see it change much from this point on, and if so, that would actually be an eyeopener.
• You may want to change the PS (Player Spawns) in your map, there are several right in the middle of the gameplay paths. In the midst of combat Xaero spawed right in front of me - man that was scary. Even though this is kind of a lame idea, because fKd is already doing this in his template map, but you might like to think about adding a few niches/alcoves for the PS to get them out of the main paths or something along those lines.
• IMO, the PG and the 25H there could be move more into the back wall.
• The map needs more health with "only" 2x25 at LG, 1x25 at PG, and 2x25 at the 2nd TP. One 50H in the central floor of the 2nd TP (on the other side of the Quad wall). And another 50H on the steps of the 1st TP (near the RA) or at the top end of the RA bridge, IMO, would help the player live a bit longer.
• Only design issue to solve are the TPs... presently they feel a bit, "uninspired", IMO.
• I love your 90° stairs, they are really fun to run up

Oh, I am presently bored out of my wits. I'd love to play around with the .map file if that was acceptable for you. It's amazing how much fun it is to edit these template texture maps.

[Infernis]

Thanks AEon. Your feedback has been really helpfull.

I totally agree about the player spawns. I've been trying to come up with something better. Your not the only one to comment about the health, so I'll gladly take those suggestions to heart.

The TP's are placeholders. I got a TP in mind but I'm awaiting permission if I can use them. I'll put up an updated version of the map later this week.

BTW, you set you thought about doing a set based on those template textures. At ESReality people said positive things about it and the other guys here loved them too. So there seems to be interest in such a set. You might want to look into that.

Ofcourse you can have the .map file. Drop me a pm with an adress I can sent it to or decompile.

[AEon]

I must have crossed over to the dark side, but while dozing I had a few ideas for your map I just had to try out in geometry, and then remembered that q3map2 lets you decompile bsp files: First time test worked well, so I experimented . The editor shots should better explain what I was thinking about (obviously the red textures denote changes to your map):

• 

• a) I am a bit proud of this one. The LG room's JP never really worked for me, a big break in gameflow IMO. It then occured to me to use your really cool 90° stairs...
  b) ... placed two of them in a slightly larger room (by two floor grids pushed back the rounded wall), using your rounded off walls to create a column (sorry, fKd for borrowing the deco grate in the center of the column ). Now you can run up the stairs very quicky to get the LG. Moved the 25H to the inside of the flat areas where a player may miss picking them up. Also note that I move the PS (Player Spawn) behind the LG.
  c) Experiment with letting a skybox or some sky into the map.
  d) Second test with sky, IMO the walls should be raised a bit. Very ugly, presently... but a nicely decorated ceiling with lots of sky should very much elevate the boxed-in feeling of the map.

• 

• e) The other area where I felt the JP is a bit useless, even though it *does* save tons of polygons was the Quad area. Experimented with straight stairs...
  f) ... rounded off stairs...
  g) ... rounded off stairs II. Not sure any of these versions are any good, but I liked the idea not having to use the JP. Maybe you can come up with a more pretty solution. Also experimented with the Quad placement.
  h) Your RL arena is one of the central fighting areas, IMO, it would help to move the stairs on the right, more to the right, as shown. This leaves bots/player more space on the floor area for the RL. I then placed the RL right under the bridge. Note the 25H health at the top of the stairs, felt that something should be placed there.

If you like I can PM you the .map file, but I'm sure you can do that with the your original map code very quickly, since your map is nicely modular, *if* the ideas are actually worth something.

On the texture set, just checked, would need the permission from evillair to expand it. Presently I am not so sure the set should *really* be used for a map. fKd's map looks pretty cool in that set as well, but I am pretty sure he will "properly" texture it. Expanding the template texture set should be relatively simple (I think)... you'd only need an original texture you want to see abstracted to then turn it into black and orange. One could then expand the theme in color as well - see my red texture shots above. It would then be simple to use several colors in the map... e.g. orange base, then yellow, or red or some other color for decoration.

Great map...

[Infernis]

Excellent!

You should be proud of a) and b)! Awesome find!

Not sure about e), f) and g) though. The whole idea behind that area was to make you vunerable while getting out. Putting a stair that would kill that. Maybe some boxes to make you jump?

[AEon]

Not sure about e), f) and g) though. The whole idea behind that area was to make you vunerable while getting out. Putting a stair that would kill that. Maybe some boxes to make you jump?

That would probably be better, i.e. the boxes, the JP gets you out of that pit very quickly. Started hollowing out all your ceilings, much like mitering, could not resist.

[Infernis]

Your a mapping machine AEon.

Working on a lot of your suggestions right now.

[Infernis]

Latest version here.

Changes:

Changed the spawnpoints to minimize bots spawning in front of you.
Removed the quad.
Changed the RA and YA to make running for them less easy.
Swapped a couple of weapons.
Added health.
Changed the LG room.
Removed the JP near the forum quad. Added boxes instead.
Created more space in the RL area.

I hope you all want to give it a go. Ofcourse a screenshot [old one] is provided as well.

I think the layout is pretty much done. I would like comments on item placement and spawn locations. Bot support is added. They use it rather well. Each area is visited. Tourney seems a bit dull though. I think I can go pretty it up now. What do you think?

[spookmineer]

Again, I haven't been able to play the map yet (netbook, not installed Q3).
Sorry, would have loved to...

Again,
Oh, and the tiles in that screenshot seem to be misaligned.

The floor tiles

[Infernis]

Again, I haven't been able to play the map yet (netbook, not installed Q3).
Sorry, would have loved to...

Again,
Oh, and the tiles in that screenshot seem to be misaligned.

The floor tiles

I know mate, but it doesn't matter. It's just temporary

[AEon]

Sorry, had overlooked the last version. Might be good to give your versions a revision number, and add that number to the name of the pk3 file, e.g. Inf_dm1_alpha_r14.pk3. The .bsp file can stay the way it is.

• The PG in the 2nd TP arena really works well, creating the second battle arena next to the RL arena.
• The RA replacing the Quad also works well. I like the boxes, that actually take some skill jumping to get out of the pit. And as "wanted" I got stuck, and the bots clobbered me . And the GL here allows for some convenient RA pit spamming with grenades.
• Since the PG arena now is another battle area, it might be nice if you tried to hollow out the "walls" on the lover level to give the player more space to fight. E.g. when standing at the PG, looking towards the TP, the path above to the left, could be turned (in part or completely) into a platform giving the player a lot more space to move. The upper path, behind the PG could also be a candidate for this. I like the way you added an interesting wall indentation at the upper end of the bridge (RL room), something like that in the PG rooms lower level could be spiffy.
• Nice remake of the stairs in the LG... looks great. What makes me a bit nervous is the nice "high" detail level you have in the LG room, you may need to up the geometry detail in the rest of the map too... but that is probably already in planning when you go beta.
• The 1st TP (RL arena) destination placement in the upper PG arena is neat.
• You might want to change the destination of the 2nd TP to the niche at the top end of the bridge in the RL room. The corridor you presently use as an exit is *very* dangerous, splash-damage-wise and also leads to telefrags.
• The bridge is a bit empty, maybe place 3x5H there to give the player something to pick up. It would also be an interesting audio cue for the folks playing below the bridge.
• The LG room's stairs could use a light at the far wall, bit dark here.
• The "smaller" stairs in the RL arena also seem to help.
• So does the 50H in the PG arena and the 25H in the RA arena. Maybe add another 25H where the YA used to be.
• The YA presently is right in the middle of the passage... maybe "indent" (see upper end of the RL bridge wall) the wall here and place the MH into that niche. This way the bots/players can pass the YA (accidentally) letting someone else pick it up.
• Bots play the map well, actually a bit better, IMO, since they now use the 2nd arena a lot as well.
• To help the bots "climb" the boxes better you may want to add some "fake" botclip stairs, that let them exit the pit. Yes, this is a bit cheating, but players cannot cheat so it should be fine.