[Quake 3] Return to the Cistern (tabq1dm5)

[Tabun]

Hmmyes, I had been puzzling over what to add and what would be overkill. Currently I have added (or plan to add) four shortcuts (of those that Sock suggested):
1. "loose brick" to allow a shortcut on the right of the stairs in the RL-room.
2. platform in RL-room near the hole in the floor, to allow a crossing one upper walkway to the other.
3. loose bricks/wall damage to get from PG to the button.
4. wall damage/rubble to get from PG/SG-hallway to the upper walkway.

What helps, I hope, is that I can make a clear difference between normal routes (quick and easy) and the shortcuts (slower, requires jumping, more dangerous) in most cases.

In the meantime, AEon has kindly helped me to finally understand what proper botclipping is all about, so I could cut my .aas in half.

After I get done with the final bits of shortcut, I'll put up "beta3".

[Tabun]

Ok.
Here's beta 3:

tabq1dm5_beta3.zip

Edit: decided not to post a full list of changes. I'm about to release beta4/rc1, and it's a little late to post previous changes. Summary: added shortcuts, tweaked look and rebuilt (bot)clipping from scratch.

Note(s):

• Pure still needs tweaking of the lighting @ the water.

[AEon]

Thoughts:

• IMO, those decals under the weapons make things look much more nicer.
• Hmm... the hint brushes I suggested for the RL hole, were a *lot* more efficient than what is presently happening there. You see the "water" room from almost everywhere in the RL room, though you should not actually not see anything.
• The shortcuts Sock suggested are neat... work really well.
• I am not quite technically on top of this, because I never use doors, but should the shut doors to the MH room not completely cut off any vis beyond the point of the closed door? Presently the room is fully drawn not matter if the doors are open or closed. If you get that working you'll save a lot of tris right there.

Update:

• The bots are a bit obsessed with the new shortcut from the lower level PG up to the YA level, they keep using this path much like stairs in both directions. It's almost as if there was a botroam here. If so, that botroam should be deleting, it confuses the bots.
• The the issue with the TP hopping bots (in a loop) no longer seems to be an issue.
• And alas I am too stupid to do a circle-strafe from the RA onto the walkway .

[Tabun]

AEon:

• I removed 3 of the four hint brushes, since I preferred a low portal count over the lower r_speeds in those cases.
• I didn't make a portal out of the door, because that room can only be seen from areas that have relatively low r_speeds anyway. Didn't seem worth the hassle?
• There are no botroam items in the map at present. I don't exactly know why the bots use that particular shortcut so much -- a good sign that it is a helpful shortcut, though.

Finally, the trick with circlejumping is to make a slow, smooth turn with the mouse. You don't even need strafe for (and for me, it even interferes with) the jump..

[AEon]

I didn't make a portal out of the door, because that room can only be seen from areas that have relatively low r_speeds anyway. Didn't seem worth the hassle?

• If you stand behind the double-sides TP the r_speeds go up to 9.5K or so, not critical, but if it is relatively simply to "turn off" the room, I'd suggest giving it a shot.

Finally, the trick with circlejumping is to make a slow, smooth turn with the mouse. You don't even need strafe for (and for me, it even interferes with) the jump...

• If you have the nerve, I'd appreciate a demo of your jump from the RA to the walkway, I can double-bunny-hop (double-strafe-jump that would be) there but for the life of me the circle-jump does not work . Do you keep running forwards?

[Tabun]

Hmmyes, I guess I'll look into it. Should be almost properly set up to make it a portal anyway...

Demos? Sure. It seems I'm not doing as well when the camera is rolling (g_synch.clients makes everything choppy -- though it's probably camerashyness), but it was still easy to do from the RA.
Here's the demos: tabq1dm5_jumpdemos.zip

tabq1dm5_jump_a and tabq1dm5_jump_b show you circle+strafejumps, tabq1dm5_jump_c is (a rather clumsy) circlejump without strafing. As you can see, you can pretty much make it from stand-still.

[AEon]

Off topic: Whee, I finally did my first circle-jump... the mistake I seem to have been making was that I hit the jump key and kept holding it (RMB = Jump in my config). This seems to mess up the the circle-jump. Thanks for the demos.

[voodoochopstiks]

there's a nice trick when recording a demo, simply turn on synchronousclients, start recording, then turn off sync-clients Saves you the lag

[Tabun]

Ok. New, and hopefully final "beta" release.

Here is beta 4:
tabq1dm5_beta4.zip

• Did some more texture work and gave the doorways a much needed facelift.
• Made a new roof for the big room w/ the button.
• Added an areaportal for the button-door.
• Tweaked some textures, lights and small bits of brushwork, and optimized clipping and r_speeds some more.

One question with regards to the teleporter: how are people liking the alternate teleport location (to the pit near the LG)? I'd like to hear about this one last time, before I make the final decision whether I'm going to keep it or chuck it out (and make the teleporter work "normally").

The final thing that I'd appreciate some advice on is bot behaviour. Currently they can use two shortcuts (out of the pit near the SG, and the one in the long PG/SG hallway). It seems they are overly fond of the shortcut to the upper walkway and tend to clot together there. The other place the bots hang out too much is in the water, but I don't think I can fix that in any acceptable way. The question is: should I "disable" that shortcut (but keep the out of the pit near the SG)? Or should I just keep it as it is?

Other than that, I think it's done. If there's anything important that I've missed, or something still sucks, now is the time to tell me. :]
Rather amusing to see my previous map and compare it to this one -- I'd almost go back and remake that one, too.. Best to hang on to the things I've learnt and move on.

Screenies:

[lvlshot]http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabq1dm5_pre19.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabq1dm5_pre20.jpg[/lvlshot]

[lvlshot]http://www.tabun.nl/tmp/gen/tabq1dm5_pre21.jpg[/lvlshot]

[AEon]

The reason why that one connecting shortcut (lower PG to upper RL) is so popular is probably threefold:

• Right on the tiled floor on the upper level you have a player respawn point, placing bots right next to this "critical" area.
• Bots seem to have a preference for the PG *and* the RL (normal), so they will wander between the two weapons.
• And since a YA is also close by the bots will roam this area in particular.

What you could try is removing the player respawn point here, to reduce the focus on this area somewhat. E.g. place it inside the RL room near the hole or so. Might be "funny" to place the respawn exactly above the hole and have the player drop into the lower water area

The areaportal works fine, IMO, a good move to remove unneeded tris when the door is closed.

Since I suggested changing the alternate TP exit, I like the exit near the LG. It gives the player access to the less frequented lower water area. I'm not quite sure the bots use this "secret" TP path though.

Even though the r_speeds are not really an issue with about 9K. But looking towards the water room, from the double-TP room, all the water room is drawn, IMO this should *really* not be happening. A final hint brush might be in order to better cut off the pool area.

BTW, I only recently remembered cluster portals: I no longer remember when they were actually useful (required). But those might be able to "balance" the bot play a bit, i.e. help the bots not considder large parts of the map for navigation, but stick to the current room.

To all: Did we have a good tutorial on cluster portals?

[foralarx2k3]

Hi Tabun,

I really like what you've done with the non-pure version and the changes you have made since the original beta. Thankyou for taking the time to share this with us, and for bringing back some fond memories.

In terms of the new alternate teleporter exit I think it works really well and I like it. It gives the dead end (even though it isn't really any more) a sense of purpose an brings that alcove into pay much more in the map.

In terms of the exit from the pit there and bot play I think that's fine.

I watched a couple of games on the one to the upper level and I think it's not the YA / Spawn point or the RL that causes the attraction. It's the three small healths. Often they went for these prior to going for the YA (in fact I didn't see one head off for the RL), and more often than not they took just one or two of them. I would suggest as a quick test removing them altogether, especially as there is a yellow health just around the corner that might attract / encourage more play in the RL room.


As for the water I think you done a great job here, they seem to move in and out fairly smoothly and don't spend nearly as much time in there as they used to. Well done on that.

The only shortcut addition of socks I didn't like was the one from the PG to the button. I think it detracts from the great gameplay that can be had around the curved stairs. But that's just me being an old fart who has fond memories of playing the original many many times.

Perhaps it's time to wrap this up, finish those final tweaks and move on

Ian.

[Tabun]

The reason why that one connecting shortcut (lower PG to upper RL) is so popular is probably threefold:

• Right on the tiled floor on the upper level you have a player respawn point, placing bots right next to this "critical" area.
• Bots seem to have a preference for the PG *and* the RL (normal), so they will wander between the two weapons.
• And since a YA is also close by the bots will roam this area in particular.

What you could try is removing the player respawn point here, to reduce the focus on this area somewhat. E.g. place it inside the RL room near the hole or so. Might be "funny" to place the respawn exactly above the hole and have the player drop into the lower water area

I've now placed that spawn between the RL-room hole and the pillar -- that actually looks like a neat place for it, too. And no, not above it. The spawn in the hallway was a bit too much out in the open, anyway.
Edit: I see now that you didn't mean the lower, but the upper spawn. I think the lower causes more problems, since they only use the shortcut going up?

Since I suggested changing the alternate TP exit, I like the exit near the LG. It gives the player access to the less frequented lower water area. I'm not quite sure the bots use this "secret" TP path though.

They do. Not so often as "normal" use, though.

Even though the r_speeds are not really an issue with about 9K. But looking towards the water room, from the double-TP room, all the water room is drawn, IMO this should *really* not be happening. A final hint brush might be in order to better cut off the pool area.

I know that would be neater for r_speeds. It would endlessly cut up a lot of portals. I'm currently happy with the balance between portals (3.3k and r_speeds (max 11k).

BTW, I only recently remembered cluster portals: I no longer remember when they were actually useful (required). But those might be able to "balance" the bot play a bit, i.e. help the bots not considder large parts of the map for navigation, but stick to the current room.

To all: Did we have a good tutorial on cluster portals?

[/quote]

I'm not going there. The map is already cut up in relatively simple areas, so I expect hard work with hardly any results.

---

It's the three small healths. Often they went for these prior to going for the YA (in fact I didn't see one head off for the RL), and more often than not they took just one or two of them. I would suggest as a quick test removing them altogether (...)

Hmm, that makes sense. They're there for the tourney effect - would provide helpful sound hints to the "down" player, while the other was trying to control the upper area. Or so I'd hoped. :]

I really like what you've done with the non-pure version and the changes you have made since the original beta. Thankyou for taking the time to share this with us, and for bringing back some fond memories.

You're very welcome. This has been very useful to me, too. ;]

[Tabun]

Ok. It's done. I've tweaked the last few lights and made a special little decal for the teleporter destination, as I have decided to keep the alternative.
My thanks to all who commented here.

Download final: tabq1dm5.zip

[AEon]

Link seems to be no workie?!

Update: Yo, now the download link works.

[Tabun]

Should work - maybe it was still uploading? Works fine for me, anyway...

[Anthem]

Alternate link: http://q3a.ath.cx/?mapdetails=tabq1dm5.

. Love the map. Great work.

[scythe]

Really lovely map, Tabun. Excellent texture and shader work, as well as all the little details. It makes me think of what Quake could be like today, if they'd have kept making them, instead of turning it into the Borg from Star Trek.

This is seriously only your second released map? Very impressive.

[Tabun]

Thanks guys.

And yes. I did make a handful of maps for Quake II waay back, but I've only just started getting serious on this mapping thing. ;]